Girl Altar Serviers

[hudson]

I suppose I misread it if that is what you meant. My bad, we are speaking about 2 different things.

 

[promethius]

" If you can’t look at female altar servers without being distracted, then the answer, as per St Francis, is not to keep women out of their valid role in the public sphere, but rather to school your eyes in such discipline that you never look on the altar servers.

This is your burden to bear, don’t lay it on the girls…"quote

“burden to bear”…I think you misunderstand the distraction. Your accusation of burden seems to imply something else…it is the irreverence that is distracting. Perhaps I should do something about it (such as talk to the priest in charge about the lack of reverence, or to the girl to let her know she has dignity and shouldn’t dress like that while serving on our Lord’s altar), but I think you misunderstood. You’ve inspired me to say something next time I visit if the situation hasn’t been resolved!

I realized you were a woman and I wasn’t referring to a distraction of lust. But the fact of the matter remains that despite a lack of reverence on her part, you should not allow yourself to be distracted.

Personally, I never even notice the altar servers any more. I think that one of them would have to start doing an irish jig on the altar for me to even realize they’re there

Then again, I was told from the beginning of when I was being trained to be an altar server that a GOOD altar server makes themselves unnoticeable… so maybe I’m trying to help them out on that by deliberately not noticing them…

As to saying something, I don’t think you should go directly to the girl. The priest and the parents (and by extension, godparents) are the ones charged by the church with her moral upbringing. They are the ones to whom this concern should be addressed. If you appoint yourself as her moral caregiver, then you are likely to run into problems. Besides, if you address it to the priest, he may be able to correct it by giving better instruction to ALL the altar servers!

Incidently, I would say that lack of proper reverence should include:

• gum chewing
• flip flops
• unkempt hair, too much ornamentation in hair (male and female)
• hands in pockets, if robes have them
• slouching in seats
• plainly walking across the altar, rather than walking with hands folded
• passing out from the incense (okay, that was a joke, but I definitely have seen it happen!)
• wearing immodest/inappropriate clothing (male and female)

 

[promethius]

I suppose I misread it if that is what you meant. My bad, we are speaking about 2 different things.

Thank you for clarifying. In looking back I see that there is also a debate going on about the all male priesthood… so I see where the confusion could have come in, since people often mistakenly use Pheobe as an example in that regard.

I assure you, you will never hear a word of defense for allowing female “priests” come from my mouth (or be typed from my hands!)

 

[hudson]

lol ok

 

[GraceDK]

At the altar we are participating again in the sacrifice of Our Lord and it seems to me that women were the last to leave the cross when Jesus was actually sacrificed.

I agree with this. Plus. Jesus said: “Let the little children come to Me. Do not hinder them, for the Kingdom belongs to these”.

The ark of the covenant, the new Eve, is a real woman.
The Virgin Mary, Mary Salome, Mary of Magdala etc. were standing at the Cross which is the most holy Alter that has ever existed.

I am happy when I see girls serving at the alter. I think sometimes they might even do it better and be more aware of the importance of their little task than the boys…
Until now I have heard severel oppinions from people who felt it was somehow wrong. Those oppinions have not seemed logical to me.

 

[GraceDK]

Negative. These “deaconesses” were there to assist in the baptism of females as to not cause scandal(the women were unclothed). There is no comparison of these “deaconesses” to ordained Deacons we have today.

Wherever did you get the idea that Phoebe were only to help with women baptism or that women were unclothed during baptism ???
Sounds like a LOT of speculation.
maybe you can give an accurate source for your statement… that is, a source that goes back to around the time where Phoebe was serving as a deaconess and not some footnote from 200 years later.
My guess would be that you cannot.

 

[tafan]

Tafan, that is interesting…cause I am sure that there is a historical context for alter boys becoming incorporated into the mass. Is this a feudal middle ages thing…or does it have an earlier history? I am fascinated with this because it is, yet another facet of our church, that we take for granted.

Where did the “minor orders” come from? My alter serving days were in the late mid-late 60’s and those words do not ring any meaning to me…and I agree with Debra that many of us who did serve in the mass had no intentions of being a priest…but yes your right…because we assisted the priest and went into the room where he prepared, the possibilty of the priesthood was always presented to us without any words (the sacristy, right)?

Bruce

I think this wikipedia article is fairly accurate:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_orders

 

[tafan]

WAS being the key word here.

The Church now allows even girls to be altar servers… so obviously it is incorrect to say that the only purpose of an altar server is for discerning priesthood.

What I said “The only reason the Church ever allowed juveniles to be altar servers in the first place is for vocational development”, which is obviously a historical statement. And you said I was wrong, and now you admit that I was right. We are making progress

 

[promethius]

Wherever did you get the idea that Phoebe were only to help with women baptism or that women were unclothed during baptism ???
Sounds like a LOT of speculation.

Actually, it’s not. Assisting at baptism, which were originally done nude, WAS a role of altar servers at the time.

As to whether or not it was the ONLY role for female altar servers, that is not entirely known… but in no ways can anyone presume Pheobe was a priestess.

maybe you can give an accurate source for your statement… that is, a source that goes back to around the time where Phoebe was serving as a deaconess and not some footnote from 200 years later.
My guess would be that you cannot.

I’m not sure, since there are two debates going on here, if you’re trying to advocate a female priesthood (if you are, then you’re off topic.

I will point out, however, that the reference to Pheobe clearly states that she was an assistant to Paul and others, and not a priestess.
Romans 16:1-2
And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae: That you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints; and that you assist her in whatsoever business she shall have need of you. For she also hath assisted many, and myself also.

 

[SteveGC]

I agree with this. Plus. Jesus said: “Let the little children come to Me. Do not hinder them, for the Kingdom belongs to these”.

Do you think we are hindering young girls by not letting them serve at the altar? How are they kept from Christ by remaining in the pew and participating in the Mass along with the rest of the laity? If this quote were to be used as you are suggesting it, then all parents who, for whatever reason, do not allow their sons to be altar boys, are violating this command from Christ. Surely you don’t think that to be true. This quote is used far too often in defense of altar girls.

The ark of the covenant, the new Eve, is a real woman.
The Virgin Mary, Mary Salome, Mary of Magdala etc. were standing at the Cross which is the most holy Alter that has ever existed.

So, if we’re using the image of Christ’s death on the cross as the guide by which we should structure the activity at the altar, then the cross is the altar, Christ Himself is the Eucharist, the women at the foot of the cross are now altar servers…where is the priest? Again, it is indeed powerful imagery that you offer here, but unless you can reasonably draw a complete parallel with this image and the order of the the Mass, I’m afraid it is a weak argument in defense of even the use of altar servers, let alone altar girls.

I am happy when I see girls serving at the alter. I think sometimes they might even do it better and be more aware of the importance of their little task than the boys…
Until now I have heard severel oppinions from people who felt it was somehow wrong. Those oppinions have not seemed logical to me.

It will never be “wrong” so long as it is permissible for the Bishop, pastor, and/or celebrant to decide on it. Whether it is a wise thing to allow or not is open for debate. I contend that it is unwise insofar as it seems painfully clear that the CDW thinks it should be boys, but has allowed for girls with conditions.

 

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Debora123

Ah I see…

 

[TimothyH]

WAS being the key word here.

The Church now allows even girls to be altar servers… so obviously it is incorrect to say that the only purpose of an altar server is for discerning priesthood.

Sublime logic there Debora.

-Tim-

 

[Debora123]

Sublime logic there Debora.

-Tim-

If that was a sincere compliment, thank you.

If that was a snarky, sarcastic remark, congratulations.

 

[Debora123]

I agree with this. Plus. Jesus said: “Let the little children come to Me. Do not hinder them, for the Kingdom belongs to these”.

The ark of the covenant, the new Eve, is a real woman.
The Virgin Mary, Mary Salome, Mary of Magdala etc. were standing at the Cross which is the most holy Alter that has ever existed.

I am happy when I see girls serving at the alter. I think sometimes they might even do it better and be more aware of the importance of their little task than the boys…
Until now I have heard severel oppinions from people who felt it was somehow wrong. Those oppinions have not seemed logical to me.

 

[trickster]

women priests are NOT biblical. Trying to “reinvent” the church teachings have never gotten anyone to a good place.

Hello Bev…don’t believe you had the chance to read the entire thread here…that wasn’t the point intended…people were getting side-tracked with the idea of girls being alter servers through a women or men priesthood…

Bruce

 

[trickster]

The Minor Orders have existed in the Church since Roman times. They still exist in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, but were eliminated in the Roman Church by Pope Paul VI in the early 70’s.

Men in the minor orders are considered to be clerics, and thus wear clerical collars, but they have not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

They were ordained (small ‘o’ - indicating a directive, not a Sacrament), by the bishop for service in various capacities.

The Minor Orders included ordained Porters (who carried things like the processional cross and candles), Readers, who could read the Epistle or chant the Psalms and antiphons, and Acolyte, who was entitled to touch the Sacred Vessels and prepare the altar. - In is these roles that the altar boys emulated and that is why they were allowed to wear the clerical cassock and alb.

The most well know was the Sub-Deacon. In the Tridentine Mass, it was the Sub-Deacon’s responsibility to act as Lector and read the Epistles. The presence of a Sub-Deacon (along with a Deacon) was required for a Tridentine High Mass.

We have a Chaldean Sub-Deacon in our parish. He vests for Mass, takes priority for Lectoring (by law) and assists in the distribution of Holy Communion. He is also permitted, as an ordained Acolyte, to assist in the purification of the Sacred Vessels.

thank you Brendon…that is extremely interesting as I did not know about that prior to this conversation…great…thanks.

Bruce

 

[trickster]

Do you think we are hindering young girls by not letting them serve at the altar? How are they kept from Christ by remaining in the pew and participating in the Mass along with the rest of the laity? If this quote were to be used as you are suggesting it, then all parents who, for whatever reason, do not allow their sons to be altar boys, are violating this command from Christ. Surely you don’t think that to be true. This quote is used far too often in defense of altar girls.

So, if we’re using the image of Christ’s death on the cross as the guide by which we should structure the activity at the altar, then the cross is the altar, Christ Himself is the Eucharist, the women at the foot of the cross are now altar servers…where is the priest? Again, it is indeed powerful imagery that you offer here, but unless you can reasonably draw a complete parallel with this image and the order of the the Mass, I’m afraid it is a weak argument in defense of even the use of altar servers, let alone altar girls.

It will never be “wrong” so long as it is permissible for the Bishop, pastor, and/or celebrant to decide on it. Whether it is a wise thing to allow or not is open for debate. I contend that it is unwise insofar as it seems painfully clear that the CDW thinks it should be boys, but has allowed for girls with conditions.

Re: Jesus of Nazareth’s death and the woman…Jesus is both the Eucharist and the priest in that scenario…hope that helps.

Bruce

 

[Tridentinum]

Absolutely not. It’s a break with tradition, feminizes the Sanctuary and reduces vocations.

 

[Castello]

t not the limits of Jesus of Nazareth.

The Jesus I worship is God, He is not limited, He is Omnipotent!

 

[trickster]

Absolutely not. It’s a break with tradition, feminizes the Sanctuary and reduces vocations.

Breaking with tradition sometimes is good; feminizing the sanctuary OMG and reduces vocation…I don’t think you can lay that on alter girls…

Bruce