Girl or Guy?

[JCPhoenix]

I spent a semester in Mexico when I was in college and in my practicum I worked with male homosexual transvestite prostitutes.

One “woman” named “Carmela” had recently had a sex change operation male to female. I never would have known if I wasn’t told. I could only refer to her as “she” and wonder what happened to her.

The male transvestities were a little more difficult. They were definitely men, some more effeminate than others, but wore makeup, wigs, had “chests”, wether by hormones, implants or stuffed socks.

I made the mistake one day of walking in and saying, “Hola, todos”, implying the presence of men as there were 2 female staff present and 2 transvestites. I was thoroughly chastized (although in a gentle and playful manner) for using “todos” in place of “todas”, because, as Ruby told me, “We are all women here!”

I just nodded and agreed, but it still messes with my head. They were not women. They were rejecting manhood. I couldn’t really relate to them as men.

I learned to accept them individually as who they were and I still think and pray about them.

It makes me sad, because not only did I see how they suffered and learned some of their stories, but I also saw how they suffered and were persecuted in public when going about daily activities, same as everyone else.

They were and are beautiful children of God.

We are called to recognize them as people, but as to what to call them or how to refer to them? I still refer to Ruby and Titi (who was murdered “on the job” when I was still down there), and all of them as “she” because even though they are men, I cannot see them as men or women…they have created a “species” in between where they exist in their own world and within their own definition seperate from God.

And you cannot imagine the hell they experience every day.

Please have compassion for these people, and pray to Jesus that he have mercy on their tortured souls.

 

[Mike_Dye]

Sorry but this just too wierd for me! I suppose if they are that far gone ask Jerry Springer for help.
Mike

 

[aspawloski4th]

Sex change surgery cannot change one’s chromosomal makeup.
You’re still either an XX or an XY.

Wrong!!! there is xxy , xxxy , xyy , xxyy, xo, and people with more than type or chromesomes in their body.

 

[survive]

I think if you have unambiguous genes and unambiguous, matching, reproductive organs, what they are is what you are. If your organs say one thign and your genes another or if both are ambiguous, you have until age 18 to choose and stick with that choice for life. If you delay until postadolescence to get hormone supplements you may develop in an unhealthy way, as people abusing steroids or growth hormone can. If you choose before you can make a contract you won’t be held to it. So 18 is the age to choose what your sex is. If your genes are ambiguous but your organs aren’t or vice-versa, then you are what the unambiguous indicator is. If you’re an xxy with male sex organs, you’re a guy. If you’re an xxy with female parts, you’re a girl. If you’re an xy with ambiguous organs you’re a guy. The time for corrective surgery is as soon as the genetic facts are learned. Younger tissues heal more completely than older tissues.

 

[Charles_22]

One of the reasons that forensic scientist can tell the gender of human skeletons is because even our bones are different. It has been a long time since I took anatomy, but it seems to me that male bones are denser then females. SOme studies seem to indicate that males and females even use their brains differently. I don’t remember the details of this study, perhaps someone else does.

Going by that reasoning, there is more to our genders then the outer obvious genital differences.

From what I have heard, females also have an extra rib (Adam’s was taken away to form Eve).

 

[aussie_jaz]

From what I have heard, females also have an extra rib (Adam’s was taken away to form Eve).

nope , im pretty sure males and females both have 12 pairs of ribs.if the adam and eve story is to be taken literally then either adam was created with an extra rib to the 12 pairs or the rib which was taken grew back as the rib is the only bone which can regenerate itself… which again would only give more reason why god might have chosen to take a rib in the first place.

 

[Eucharisted]

A close friend and I were having a serious difference of opinion (catfight) yesterday. She says that transsexuals become whatever sex they are and should be treated as such. (I might add, she is in a relationship - fornicating, I’m afriad - with a person who is biologically male but, according to my friend, is a “she.”)

I said that her friend was still male. She said that anatomically, yes, but (s)he couldn’t afford sex-change surgery and that once certain anatomical features were… rearranged …that her friend would be female in all senses of the term.

Call me old fashioned, but I beleive that “born a man, you are a man… no matter if you wear a skirt!” I keep telling her that no, I will not refer to her friend as “her” and “she,” since I firmly believe that this person is male. Regardless of the fact that other than anatomically, this person is more effeminate than I am (I like pickup trucks! I confess!). I still think “she” is a “he.”

I said that the most accommodating I would get would be to refer to this friend as “person” and use non-gender-specific pronouns, i.e., “Tell ----- to get his or her coat.” She says that’s not good enough. We had a pretty major argument.

So, I’m asking you, folks. Does the “woman in a man’s body” argument hold water? Does being a woman entail more than a mentality and makeup? If someone gets a transplant of uterus, ovaries, and sex-change surgery, is that person now female? Or is it born a man, stay a man, regardless?

Thanks for all the help.

What gender we recieve from God is a gift and we should not throw it away by becoming something else. It is not a matter of how one is male or female, but a matter of respecting the gift of sex. The act of transexuality is a sin, for the person says he is the master of his body, even though a man’s body and soul are both gifts from God, and should be treated as such. We are the stewards of God’s graces, not the masters or the takers of them. Indeed, it is only by the Will of God that we live, so we must live by God’s Will!

 

[chevalier]

We are obliged to accept our gender, end of story as long as gender is determined.

Now, I don’t see any good reason to consider a surgically mutilated XY with an artificial vagina to be female. In fact, transgression against the obligation to accept one’s gender was committed by the person who made the decision about the surgery.

Marriage is a problem in either case because impotence is an impediment, therefore castration also.

 

[aspawloski4th]

We are obliged to accept our gender, end of story as long as gender is determined.

Now, I don’t see any good reason to consider a surgically mutilated XY with an artificial vagina to be female. In fact, transgression against the obligation to accept one’s gender was committed by the person who made the decision about the surgery.

Marriage is a problem in either case because impotence is an impediment, therefore castration also.

What if my body is male but my chromesomes are xx?

 

[PaulinVA]

What gender we recieve from God is a gift and we should not throw it away by becoming something else. It is not a matter of how one is male or female, but a matter of respecting the gift of sex. The act of transexuality is a sin, for the person says he is the master of his body, even though a man’s body and soul are both gifts from God, and should be treated as such. We are the stewards of God’s graces, not the masters or the takers of them. Indeed, it is only by the Will of God that we live, so we must live by God’s Will!

Could you please elaborate on the idea that our gender is a gift from God.

The reason I ask is that an activist Episcopalian priest from Pasadena recently made a big stir when he said homosexuality was a gift from God.

Where does “this is how the biology works” end and the “gift from God” start?

 

[Et_Cetera]

I refer to people as the gender that they prefer to be called because I have respect for others.

 

[Valke2]

For me, these people are what they were born as.

The only time this is different is when there is a genetic/medical issue involved.

That is a person who is born with parts of both genders. Then the issue is more complicated.

For a Christian I can not see how we could embrace someone’s choice of wanting (or undergoing) a sex change just because they “feel” they are the opposite sex. To do so says that they believe that God made a mistake becuase our gender is a Gift from God.

The same argument can be used against nose jobs, face lifts, make up, or anything else that seeks to chane one’s body.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I refer to people as the gender that they prefer to be called because I have respect for others.

Thankyou!

 

[Charles_22]

nope , im pretty sure males and females both have 12 pairs of ribs.if the adam and eve story is to be taken literally then either adam was created with an extra rib to the 12 pairs or the rib which was taken grew back as the rib is the only bone which can regenerate itself… which again would only give more reason why god might have chosen to take a rib in the first place.

I’m not sure where I heard it, but they seemed to know what they were talking about. Seems I’ve heard that notion with and without the Adam’s rib idea.

I found an article about the ribs, if it’s trustworthy that is:
biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio105/ribs.htm

 

[survive]

I refer to people as the gender they are biologically because I respect facts. If the people ask me not to, I explain my reasoning politely and gently as a form of respect for people. Respect and agreement are not the same thing at all. This is something that would be more widely understood if debate were still taught to most children.

 

[Et_Cetera]

I refer to people as the gender they are biologically because I respect facts. If the people ask me not to, I explain my reasoning politely and gently as a form of respect for people. Respect and agreement are not the same thing at all. This is something that would be more widely understood if debate were still taught to most children.

As a scientist, I respect facts too. Let’s get practical: If a man wants to be referred to as a woman, and you do not oblige, you will hurt them. Why let pronouns harm another person?

 

[aspawloski4th]

I refer to people as the gender they are biologically because I respect facts. If the people ask me not to, I explain my reasoning politely and gently as a form of respect for people. Respect and agreement are not the same thing at all. This is something that would be more widely understood if debate were still taught to most children.

Facts as you see them, not necessarily as they are.

 

[aussie_jaz]

I’m not sure where I heard it, but they seemed to know what they were talking about. Seems I’ve heard that notion with and without the Adam’s rib idea.

I found an article about the ribs, if it’s trustworthy that is:
biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio105/ribs.htm

its good to see some people go and look up unbiased research rather than keep believing false assumptions and myths which is where a lot of prejudice is concieved

 

[survive]

As a scientist, I respect facts too. Let’s get practical: If a man wants to be referred to as a woman, and you do not oblige, you will hurt them. Why let pronouns harm another person?

If disagreement harmed people, I would be in the ER every day with the discussions I get into. Practicality is not the same thing as truth. It isn’t practical to annoy people by correcting them when they spread urban legends but it’s all in the interest of the difference between true and untrue. If reality takes a back seat to every claim of emotional preference wherever it may appear then soon factual discussion, rational thinking, science itself, indeed thought itself will wither to dust and blow away.
I do my utmost to address these issues politely and gently, with repeated assurances of my respect for the person.

 

[aspawloski4th]

If disagreement harmed people, I would be in the ER every day with the discussions I get into. Practicality is not the same thing as truth. It isn’t practical to annoy people by correcting them when they spread urban legends but it’s all in the interest of the difference between true and untrue. If reality takes a back seat to every claim of emotional preference wherever it may appear then soon factual discussion, rational thinking, science itself, indeed thought itself will wither to dust and blow away.
I do my utmost to address these issues politely and gently, with repeated assurances of my respect for the person.

Then there is just oldfashioned manners. My mom taught me to call people what they want to be called. It is the polite thing to do. Manners some most of todays people donj’t seem to have even if tthay are from yesteryear.