Girl or Guy?

[hyflyer64]

It was directed at his comments I posted, elsewise why would I quote it? The only thing is, I thought for some reason he was trying to almost say that God’s Will after the Fall didn’t exist or modify after the Fall, and I was attempting to clear that up. I thought he was going quite a bit opposite of the flow, that he now appears he was really taking IOW.

Charles,

You are being very insulting and I do take offense!! I would very much appreciate you using the correct pronouns!!
I guaranty you would be doing so if you were on one of my flights.

 

[hyflyer64]

There’s such a thing as God’s highest Will, being that we passed the Garden, and also what you would call a lower Will, whereas He wills all that has happened after the Fall.

As God controls all, there is nothing insignificant or accidental to anything that happens; and no such thing as luck. Everything that happens, passes through His Hands,

There is no such thing as luck or accidents as far as God is concerned. He doesn’t have limited powers that can only monitor only so many things at one time, and even if it were true, His ability to already know what will happen with every thing He allows, renders the possibility that He couldn’t monitor everything at once relatively irrelevant.

I’m not terribly sure you would disagree with what I just wrote, as my re-reading your post makes me re-think, however, as it’s an expansion of thought if nothing else, I will leave it up as-is.

Well I do have a problem with GOD having multiple “wills” Not anything I’ve ever heard.
Yes GOD, is “all knowing” however, your thread seems to be leading to the conclusion that all things are “pre-ordained” and that is a very slippery slope to get on.

I would like to think that what HE saw for me was:
She’s born in the wrong body but will grow up trying to be what her(his) parents and society expects her (him) to be. She(he) will be tormented for most of her(his) life but will still be a good person and will do MY will as best she(he) can. She(he) will honor her(his) parents and be there with them as they lay on their death bed. She(he) will raise two wonderful, loving, caring daughters. She(he) will have her(his) mother-in-law live with her(him) for 9+ years until she needs more care than she(he) and her spouse can provide. She(he) will be at her sposes side supporting her when her mother dies.
After all that and the girls are on their own, when all the important things I needed her(him) to do are done, then she(he) will resolve the torment and make things right for herself. However, she will under go a lot more pain. She will loose her beloved partner of 40+ years and she will have to go on and build a new life for herself. In the process she will try her best, even though she does not really know what my MY will for her is and she’ll stumble and make stupid mistakes, but I’ll gently guide her along and she will serve ME well.

 

[Charles_22]

Down to brass tacks. God causes somethings to happen and God allows somethings to happen. So what? Everyone knows that. When bad things happen we are allowed to do what we can do to rectify the situation.

I’m not sure if you missed some of the finer points or not. Among them being that nothing happens by accident, as we commonly call them, and often seem to believe, and also that there’s no such thing as luck. From what I have seen of society, indeed, even of catholic society, a LOT of people would be at odds with at least one of those two statements.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’m not sure if you missed some of the finer points or not. Among them being that nothing happens by accident, as we commonly call them, and often seem to believe, and also that there’s no such thing as luck. From what I have seen of society, indeed, even of catholic society, a LOT of people would be at odds with at least one of those two statements.

Thats common sense in a nutshell. tThats all. I dont think God causes bank robberies to happen!

 

[Charles_22]

Charles,

You are being very insulting and I do take offense!! I would very much appreciate you using the correct pronouns!!
I guaranty you would be doing so if you were on one of my flights.

If only you knew, what I shall now tell you, then perhaps you will see that has been entirely in your own head. I have NO IDEA what your sex is, as you logonid made that none the clearer, so I used the ‘he’ instead of the ‘it’ to refer to you. My name shoudl make that quite clear what I am. If you leave your logonid ambiguous it is only your fault that this will contiiyue to happen. I often get a fell as to what sex a person is even in such cases, but as I had not read agreat deal of your comments I hadn’t noted that for certainty yet, and instead referred to the more general masculine term. Most people I know, would much rather be referred to incorrectly in such a case, as opposed to being referred to as ‘it’.

I withdraw my masculine references therefore, however, if you’re one of those who is in fact masculine, but wants to be referred to as feminine, then you can forget it. I referred to pronouns in the first place merely to not have to continually write out your ambiguous logonid. IOW, no offense intended. I really hadn’t noticed enough of your comments to notice what side of the fence you’re even on, and given the quote I had of you originally, where you’re making statements indicative of being new to the thread, I thought there was no prior data on you in the thread, when in fact there may had been. I think this is the first thread I have seen you in, but then I don’t read every one.

 

[aspawloski4th]

If only you knew, what I shall now tell you, then perhaps you will see that has been entirely in your own head. I have NO IDEA what your sex is, as you logonid made that none the clearer, so I used the ‘he’ instead of the ‘it’ to refer to you. My name shoudl make that quite clear what I am. If you leave your logonid ambiguous it is only your fault that this will contiiyue to happen. I often get a fell as to what sex a person is even in such cases, but as I had not read agreat deal of your comments I hadn’t noted that for certainty yet, and instead referred to the more general masculine term. Most people I know, would much rather be referred to incorrectly in such a case, as opposed to being referred to as ‘it’.

I withdraw my masculine references therefore, however, if you’re one of those who is in fact masculine, but wants to be referred to as feminine, then you can forget it. I referred to pronouns in the first place merely to not have to continually write out your ambiguous logonid. IOW, no offense intended. I really hadn’t noticed enough of your comments to notice what side of the fence you’re even on, and given the quote I had of you originally, where you’re making statements indicative of being new to the thread, I thought there was no prior data on you in the thread, when in fact there may had been. I think this is the first thread I have seen you in, but then I don’t read every one.

First you say you read her comments and was judging where she was going, then saying you had not read enough to know what pronoun to use. Funny I figured her gender right away afte mere skimming what she wrote. You can’t have it both ways!

 

[Charles_22]

Well I do have a problem with GOD having multiple “wills” Not anything I’ve ever heard.
Yes GOD, is “all knowing” however, your thread seems to be leading to the conclusion that all things are “pre-ordained” and that is a very slippery slope to get on.

I would like to think that what HE saw for me was:
She’s born in the wrong body but will grow up trying to be what her(his) parents and society expects her (him) to be. She(he) will be tormented for most of her(his) life but will still be a good person and will do MY will as best she(he) can. She(he) will honor her(his) parents and be there with them as they lay on their death bed. She(he) will raise two wonderful, loving, caring daughters. She(he) will have her(his) mother-in-law live with her(him) for 9+ years until she needs more care than she(he) and her spouse can provide. She(he) will be at her sposes side supporting her when her mother dies.
After all that and the girls are on their own, when all the important things I needed her(him) to do are done, then she(he) will resolve the torment and make things right for herself. However, she will under go a lot more pain. She will loose her beloved partner of 40+ years and she will have to go on and build a new life for herself. In the process she will try her best, even though she does not really know what my MY will for her is and she’ll stumble and make stupid mistakes, but I’ll gently guide her along and she will serve ME well.

I thought I explained -not- multiple Wills, but a Will that changed, because the original Will was no longer possible due to the Fall. It’s like you wish to go to the store (the original will) but the car breaks down. Then another will forms, since the first result is somewhat perturbed. You might say you still will to go to the store, but at least you can no longer go in the way and timing you first planned, In the case of the Fall, it’s more absolute still, because while people could still be saved, they could no longer do it based on whether Adam and Eve had succeeded. Naturally God might pine away about how unfortunate it is that the original Will wasn’t carried out because of their behavior, but it’s no longer possible for that Will to be fulfilled in the manner He wished it.

 

[hyflyer64]

If only you knew, what I shall now tell you, then perhaps you will see that has been entirely in your own head. I have NO IDEA what your sex is, as you logonid made that none the clearer, so I used the ‘he’ instead of the ‘it’ to refer to you. My name shoudl make that quite clear what I am. If you leave your logonid ambiguous it is only your fault that this will contiiyue to happen. I often get a fell as to what sex a person is even in such cases, but as I had not read agreat deal of your comments I hadn’t noted that for certainty yet, and instead referred to the more general masculine term. Most people I know, would much rather be referred to incorrectly in such a case, as opposed to being referred to as ‘it’.

I withdraw my masculine references therefore, however, if you’re one of those who is in fact masculine, but wants to be referred to as feminine, then you can forget it. I referred to pronouns in the first place merely to not have to continually write out your ambiguous logonid. IOW, no offense intended. I really hadn’t noticed enough of your comments to notice what side of the fence you’re even on, and given the quote I had of you originally, where you’re making statements indicative of being new to the thread, I thought there was no prior data on you in the thread, when in fact there may had been. I think this is the first thread I have seen you in, but then I don’t read every one.

Wow Charles, I’m having a difficult time thinking of how to respond to this.
At least now I know why it seemed that you were not reading the posts. It appears that you aren’t!!! Once again you are being very insulting. Not just to me but to all those who have been reading and responding to posts in a responsible manner.

 

[Charles_22]

Thats common sense in a nutshell. tThats all. I dont think God causes bank robberies to happen!

No, but the robbery has to bend to His Will. IOW, there are some such robberies that never occurred, though the bandits still willed it, because the Lord threw a monkey wrench in the works. Say one of the robbers breaks his leg, or has a bad feeling about the whole thing and they call it off. Some of the simplest things can be and is used by God to foil all sorts of things we intend; good or bad, but then, you know that already.

 

[Charles_22]

First you say you read her comments and was judging where she was going, then saying you had not read enough to know what pronoun to use. Funny I figured her gender right away afte mere skimming what she wrote. You can’t have it both ways!

No, my attention apparently started with the gist of what she (there is everybody happy?) was saying, and I admitted later I may had even got that wrong. I was focusing on the ideas rather than what sex the ambiguous logonid might had been, but those things might more easily happen when your dad had just been diagnosed with stage4 cancer which will kill him very soon, barring a miracle.

 

[aspawloski4th]

No, but the robbery has to bend to His Will. IOW, there are some such robberies that never occurred, though the bandits still willed it, because the Lord threw a monkey wrench in the works. Say one of the robbers breaks his leg, or has a bad feeling about the whole thing and they call it off. Some of the simplest things can be and is used by God to foil all sorts of things we intend; good or bad, but then, you know that already.

But then again some bank robberies happen as the robbers planned and people get hurt or killed. Becaue God ALLOWED it to happen! If you say that was God’s will Iv’e got a white rubber padded room waiting for you.

 

[Charles_22]

Wow Charles, I’m having a difficult time thinking of how to respond to this.
At least now I know why it seemed that you were not reading the posts. It appears that you aren’t!!! Once again you are being very insulting. Not just to me but to all those who have been reading and responding to posts in a responsible manner.

yeah, sure. And how insulting is it of you to continually refer to me as going out to insult people, even after I tried to explain what happened? I referred to you mistakenly as ‘he’. Wow, how insulting can I get?

 

[Charles_22]

But then again some bank robberies happen as the robbers planned and people get hurt or killed. Because God ALLOWED it to happen! If you say that was God’s will Iv’e got a white rubber padded room waiting for you.

I don’t know the technical jargon at the moment, but I think that falls into permissable Will, and not perfect Will. Still His Will nonetheless.

 

[aspawloski4th]

yeah, sure. And how insulting is it of you to continually refer to me as going out to insult people, even after I tried to explain what happened? I referred to you mistakenly as ‘he’. Wow, how insulting can I get?

I’ll tell you what is insulting. Very early on a while ago. You treated me and other trans people being called what we want to be called was not our irght, but how dare we. I’m tired of debating something that has quite a bit of science to it, with someone who act ambivelent to science at best and maybe despises science at worst. The same attitude that got Galleo wrongfully put in prison. I’m tired of debating those who who have no sense of compassion. Don’t make the starving and famie comparisons it will fall on deaf ears. Ive had physical suffering too. Iv’e passed 33 kidneystones and been operated on to remove a 34th stone, so I know what physical pain is all about. Bun ironically a trillion of those stones doesn’t hold a candle to having to pretend to be amle every day. You’d likely agree to find a way to stop the stones from coming isnt out of line even though the wrose pain to stop is transition to female, and you’d likely say no to that even though that would be dealing with the more harsh of the 2 condiditions hands down. Well I’m choosing to end my some of my suffering I’m transitioning. Before you judge anymore walk a few miles in my shoes.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I don’t know the technical jargon at the moment, but I think that falls into permissable Will, and not perfect Will. Still His Will nonetheless.

You are on a slippery slope there, because that sounds like God is willing somebody to sin.

 

[hyflyer64]

No, my attention apparently started with the gist of what she (there is everybody happy?) was saying, and I admitted later I may had even got that wrong. I was focusing on the ideas rather than what sex the ambiguous logonid might had been, but those things might more easily happen when your dad had just been diagnosed with stage4 cancer which will kill him very soon, barring a miracle.

I can empathize with you Charles. I’ve been there several times, having lost my mother, father, sister and aunt to cancer. However, I feel that things are getting a bit contentuous and that we’ve strayed from the original thread.
I’m tired and I’m going to bed. Good night all.

 

[aussie_jaz]

yeah, sure. And how insulting is it of you to continually refer to me as going out to insult people, even after I tried to explain what happened? I referred to you mistakenly as ‘he’. Wow, how insulting can I get?

the dialogue you were involved in with another poster earlier on with the ‘fill in the blanks/mr clampett’ stuff wasnt very nice was it? can you not see the insulting behaviour you were partaking in there … whats your explanation out of that one?

 

[xyneshia]

Hello, I can see that there is a pretty intense debate going on here, please forgive me for going back in time a little with my question. Like I promised earlier on, I did a bit meditating on the issue at hand. Now all of you know what I believe about the issue so I will not go there. But I do have a serious concern/question. It seems that once a person goes through with the surgery (or even if they do not but choose to present themself as the opposite sex) that they may end up feeling …trying to think of the right words…insufficient? That person must continually take hormone thearapy right? That must be taxing emotionally to have to take medicine to keep one’s gender. Also it seems that for t/g people who wants kids…well they just lost their ability to have them. On top of that it sounds like a lot of you come from regions of the country where you will be rediculed for this choice for the rest of your life. (which is terrible by the way). My concern, and again I am not judging anyone, ( these are serious questions), wouldn’t going through this process substitute one kind of emtional scar for another? Given the tremendous amount of thought and research that some of you have done I was hoping maybe I could get some thoughts on this from a few of the t/g people on this forum. Thank you in advance for your replies.
ps I am really exhausted right now please forgive the grammer and spelling errors.
Xyneshia

 

[MarieCB]

So, I’m asking you, folks. Does the “woman in a man’s body” argument hold water?

Yes.

Does being a woman entail more than a mentality and makeup?

If you woke up tomorrow with a penis and a hairy chest, would you feel right? Would the penis feel like a normal part of your body or would it feel freakish and wrong? Being a woman means a lot of things. If your mental image of yourself is female, and then you looked in the mirror and saw a beard, could you just brush it off and accept “Oh, I guess I’m really a man”?

If someone gets a transplant of uterus, ovaries, and sex-change surgery, is that person now female?

AFAIK, SRS is incapable of adding a uterus and ovaries. But it’s not an issue of making someone into a male or female. Instead, it’s making the body match up with the mind. Just like bodies can be male, female or androgynous, so can minds be male, female and androgynous. For the vast majority of people, the two match, or someone has an androgynous mind or body and can adjust, but for a few people there is a horribly jarring disparity between what the body says and what the mind says.

One concern I’ve seen among my TG friends is that the transition happens so late in life, and the person is subject to such terrible torment (and I would consider puberty to be part of that torment) beforehand, that they are left with lifetime mental health problems. This bothers and confuses me, because it seems that TG kids make themselves known by a very young age. I’m the mother of three boys, and by the age of three (even earlier!) there was no doubt in my mind that they were BOYS.

Or is it born a man, stay a man, regardless?

Some people certainly think so. I don’t consider it any different than treating any other birth defect.

 

[MarieCB]

It seems that once a person goes through with the surgery (or even if they do not but choose to present themself as the opposite sex) that they may end up feeling …trying to think of the right words…insufficient?

A lifetime of feeling like a freak is going to cause that no matter what. It’s not limited to transfolk.

That person must continually take hormone thearapy right? That must be taxing emotionally to have to take medicine to keep one’s gender.

My mother has been taking hormone replacement therapy since she had an emergency hysterectomy at the age of 32. Lots of people take medication in order to stay alive, healthy, etc.

Also it seems that for t/g people who wants kids…well they just lost their ability to have them.

Many transfolk don’t transition until after they have tried really, really hard to be the gender they’re “supposed to be”, which means that some of them already have kids. Otherwise, they aren’t much different than any other infertile person. One of my ex-boyfriends (who is now female) never did have viable sperm (she had it checked when her former wife was trying to get pregnant).

wouldn’t going through this process substitute one kind of emtional scar for another?
Xyneshia

Which should make it clear that people who go through the entire process are not doing it lightly. In the case of my ex, she has found a wonderful man who loves her just as she is, she’s too old now to have kids even if she could or wanted any, and she’s happier than she ever was as a man. However, nothing will undo the damage of living as a man - and hating her male body - for 35 years.