Girl or Guy?

[The_Angelus]

A close friend and I were having a serious difference of opinion (catfight) yesterday. She says that transsexuals become whatever sex they are and should be treated as such. (I might add, she is in a relationship - fornicating, I’m afriad - with a person who is biologically male but, according to my friend, is a “she.”)

I said that her friend was still male. She said that anatomically, yes, but (s)he couldn’t afford sex-change surgery and that once certain anatomical features were… rearranged …that her friend would be female in all senses of the term.

Call me old fashioned, but I beleive that “born a man, you are a man… no matter if you wear a skirt!” I keep telling her that no, I will not refer to her friend as “her” and “she,” since I firmly believe that this person is male. Regardless of the fact that other than anatomically, this person is more effeminate than I am (I like pickup trucks! I confess!). I still think “she” is a “he.”

I said that the most accommodating I would get would be to refer to this friend as “person” and use non-gender-specific pronouns, i.e., “Tell ----- to get his or her coat.” She says that’s not good enough. We had a pretty major argument.

So, I’m asking you, folks. Does the “woman in a man’s body” argument hold water? Does being a woman entail more than a mentality and makeup? If someone gets a transplant of uterus, ovaries, and sex-change surgery, is that person now female? Or is it born a man, stay a man, regardless?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

For me, these people are what they were born as.

The only time this is different is when there is a genetic/medical issue involved.

That is a person who is born with parts of both genders. Then the issue is more complicated.

For a Christian I can not see how we could embrace someone’s choice of wanting (or undergoing) a sex change just because they “feel” they are the opposite sex. To do so says that they believe that God made a mistake becuase our gender is a Gift from God.

 

[deb1]

One of the reasons that forensic scientist can tell the gender of human skeletons is because even our bones are different. It has been a long time since I took anatomy, but it seems to me that male bones are denser then females. SOme studies seem to indicate that males and females even use their brains differently. I don’t remember the details of this study, perhaps someone else does.

Going by that reasoning, there is more to our genders then the outer obvious genital differences.

 

[JimG]

Sex change surgery cannot change one’s chromosomal makeup.
You’re still either an XX or an XY.

 

[martino]

God makes us either male or female…it is not open to debate and is not the result of any decision that we make. That is the bottom line.

Someone born a female can not later become male any more than a dog cann later become a cat!

He/she may be able to maker herself look and act like a female but that doesn’t really change what he/she is.

How scary is it that we have to this far, that we cannot even agree on something as fundamental as gender!

 

[jmv]

JimG:

Sex change surgery cannot change one’s chromosomal makeup.
You’re still either an XX or an XY.

Bingo.

 

[snoopy]

martino:

God makes us either male or female…it is not open to debate and is not the result of any decision that we make. That is the bottom line.

Someone born a female can not later become male any more than a dog cann later become a cat!

He/she may be able to maker herself look and act like a female but that doesn’t really change what he/she is.

How scary is it that we have to this far, that we cannot even agree on something as fundamental as gender!

What about those that are born with with both sets of genetalia. In the past the doctors usually chose which sex to make the child. What if the doctors chose wrong?

 

[The_Angelus]

snoopy:

What about those that are born with with both sets of genetalia. In the past the doctors usually chose which sex to make the child. What if the doctors chose wrong?

That’s one of the cases my friend dragged up. I had no clue.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The_Angelus:

snoopy:

What about those that are born with with both sets of genetalia. In the past the doctors usually chose which sex to make the child. What if the doctors chose wrong?

That’s one of the cases my friend dragged up. I had no clue.

This exact thing was brought up on Catholic Answers Live last week. I believe it was Thursday’s Open Forum with Jimmy Akin.

The main point was that if this was the case it would have been taken care of as an infant. Who is to say that the doctors choose wrong? and even if that was the case what does this have to do with a person who is fully one gender choosing the other one because they “feel” that way?

Again, it is just saying that God made a mistake.

 

[carol_marie]

I don’t know… who am I to judge? I can’t imagine feeling like I was trapped inside the wrong body. I think it’s very sad and I have the same compassion for them as I do for others suffering with severe mental illnesses. People who are so confused that they want their body parts cut off - if that isn’t mental illness, I don’t know what is?

 

[ncjohn]

I’ve been personally acquainted with a couple people who believe themselves to be “transgendered”, one who had undergone the sex change operation, and one who was still living as a man. The one who had undergone it said “she” was fully at peace and felt that she was who she was meant to be. The one who has not expressed that he lives in a daily hell trying to be someone he knows in his mind he isn’t. Both expressed that they “knew” from their earliest memories that they were not really male, and both came from “normal” homes as best I could determine.

I get really conflicted over the whole issue. Part of me agrees with the idea that that is basically saying that God made a mistake and God doesn’t make mistakes. I also know though that there are many things passed down in our genetics that seem “wrong” including physical defects, tendencies toward diseases, and personality traits. I’ve seen children that from their earliest ability to communicate seemed just plain “mean spirited” in spite of loving parents and “normal” siblings. So overall, I don’t think that the possibility of this being a genetic thing is out of the question, and doesn’t mean that it’s not in God’s plan somehow the same as any other inherited trait.

I do know that the physical and mental pain, expense, and “humiliation” they go through is tremendous, so something must be deeply motivating them to go through all of that.

I surely don’t know the answer, but I do know that I am called to love them like everyone else. It’s certainly an area where I personally would be treading very lightly with any type of condemnation.

Peace,
John

 

[joshua1]

For the ones who were born with both sets of genitalia? Its quite simple, if there is a Y chromosome, then you are male.

 

[carol_marie]

joshua1:

For the ones who were born with both sets of genitalia? Its quite simple, if there is a Y chromosome, then you are male.

yes but can they tell that? Does that show up in DNA testing? Because I thought the doctor just sort of “picked” which sex the baby would become? At least when I saw a 20/20 or something like it, that’s what it seemed they did… at least in the past?

 

[Ham1]

The teaching of the Church was quite well developed even before DNA testing. When a child exhibits both male and female sexual characteristics the apparently dominant sex should be chosen. If the child appears to be equally male and female (very rare), then the parents in consultation with the physician would select a sex for the child and have the child surgically corrected to that sex. Perhaps now a DNA test would be done in order to identify the sex of the child.

 

[puzzleannie]

JimG:

Sex change surgery cannot change one’s chromosomal makeup.
You’re still either an XX or an XY.

unless you are born with a disorder that has damaged either X or Y chromosone, or given you an extra X chromosome, rare but does happen, these disorders have names and physical consequences, and may or may not be present in cases of true hermaphrodites, those born with visible organs of both sexes, caused by improper cell division and differentiation and that stage of fetal development. In the past doctors made a guess and the true (chromosonal) gender of the infant, and surgically and hormonally treated the infant to establish the chosen gender. If they guessed wrong, the person would have great unresolved gender identification issues. These case may or may not lead to homosexual activity. “Transgender” should be reserved to refer to persons who have a genuine chromosonal or developmental disorder which causes the physical secondary sex characteristics to differ from the actual DNA determined gender. These cases exist but are exceedingly rare. The gay lib community and its supporters currently use transgender to describe anyone who is dissatisfied with his or her true gender, and seeks to change it by surgical, hormonal or other means.

 

[JimG]

Here’s a rather technical article about “surgical sex:”
firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0411/articles/mchugh.htm

 

[The_Angelus]

Thanks Jim, that is a very helpful article. I’m considering showing it to my friend.

 

[Jabronie]

I might add, she is in a relationship - fornicating, I’m afriad - with a person who is biologically male but, according to my friend, is a “she.”

Your female friend wants a relationship with a woman so she finds a man who is trying to turn into one? Labels are the least of their problems…

 

[cheddarsox]

joshua1:

For the ones who were born with both sets of genitalia? Its quite simple, if there is a Y chromosome, then you are male.

I know some people who were born this way, believe me, it is anything but simple.

Gender and sexulity are very important, both personally, and culturally. There are physical and mental aspects to be taken into account. It isn’t even simple for those of us born with only one set of parts!

These conditions are more common than many of us realize. Please don’t be so flip. This situation would hardly seem simple if it happened to someone in your family or circle of friends.

cheddar

 

[Liberian]

The Angelus,

There’s a minor matter of chromosomes. Every cell in a man’s body (except those specifically involved in reproduction) has a Y chromosome in it; no cell in a woman’s body has a Y chromosome.

A person may be mentally or emotionally confused over gender roles, but I don’t think the “woman in a man’s body” argument holds water. Perhaps he is unconsciously wanting to be like his mother? (I should emphasize that I am not an expert on this subject; I am just expressing an opinion.)

• Liberian