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Mary888
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That’s not what I said.
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Mary888
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There is a part of me that goes in sisterhood against you angry at you. So, you found this girl you love and she loves you back. She is chaste. She is not interested in sex. And yet here is her flaw - she says she is not interested in sex. Do you follow my feeling here as to why I feel mad at you?do however take issue with the part about wanting a woman not a girl, and having a fantasy about marrying a Virgin.
But I do love a good romance even if mine never were.
Here is the thing - from the age of dunno 15-16 when we start reading about the possibility of having sex all of us know, even the Cosmo mags tell us, that first time it will hurt. We will hurt and he will like it and that is the way it is. That is one reason Cosmo advises us to be sexually experienced before getting married. This for us is like common girl knowledge. Chances are high she will feel pain not pleasure. She studied most likely and knows it. She is not looking forward towards pain but she loves you in any other way. If you don’t appreciate the sensibilities of a virgin woman why do you think you deserve a woman who had the strength to stay one?
Hope this makes sense.
I hope you two will be happy together if you do get married.
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twf
Guest
The way some of a traditionalist bent discuss sex and marriage on CAF, I can only imagine their marriage life is something like this:
“Woman, lay down, close your eyes and think of England…you must now pay your debt to me. If you say no, be assured that you will burn in the fires of hell. No, please keep your shirt on, lust in marriage must be avoided.”
I only slightly exaggerate. It’s disturbing. And not realistic.
“Woman, lay down, close your eyes and think of England…you must now pay your debt to me. If you say no, be assured that you will burn in the fires of hell. No, please keep your shirt on, lust in marriage must be avoided.”
I only slightly exaggerate. It’s disturbing. And not realistic.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You make some good points, Mary.
The first time I had sex it was with someone I loved very much, I was older than the norm for it, I had had it built up my whole life as to what a great spiritual experience it was supposed to be, and I had had a doctor confirm in advance there was nothing physical that should pose a problem.
It hurt like hell. It was awful. I had to stop.
I know other girls in similar circumstances who had similar things crop up. Sometimes girls get afraid hearing these stories, especially if they aren’t the type to just lose their virginity and repeatedly have sex while rip roaring drunk or high like so many young women do.
In addition, speaking from my own experience, I did not feel or understand sexual desire until I had gotten well past the preliminaries allowed by the Catholic Church for unmarried couples. And I do mean, well past, and again, I was no kid at that time. If this girl has been chaste she may not even know what sex feels like. We do not all grow up understanding and feeling desire. For women in my mom’s era, it was often something learned after marriage and husbands were taught to be patient with their wives.
While some discussions between the couple and with the priest might be good and fruitful, don’t just assume that if the woman isn’t feeling it yet she’s a cold fish with problems. People are all different. I went through enough trauma as a young person feeling I was sexually abnormal by not being anxious to have intercourse, and I was annoyed at everyone over it, both the secular world that acted like everybody should feel this desire by “a certain age” or they were frigid, and with the Church who had built this act up into such a big thing and not been frank about it perhaps not living up to great expectations.
The first time I had sex it was with someone I loved very much, I was older than the norm for it, I had had it built up my whole life as to what a great spiritual experience it was supposed to be, and I had had a doctor confirm in advance there was nothing physical that should pose a problem.
It hurt like hell. It was awful. I had to stop.
I know other girls in similar circumstances who had similar things crop up. Sometimes girls get afraid hearing these stories, especially if they aren’t the type to just lose their virginity and repeatedly have sex while rip roaring drunk or high like so many young women do.
In addition, speaking from my own experience, I did not feel or understand sexual desire until I had gotten well past the preliminaries allowed by the Catholic Church for unmarried couples. And I do mean, well past, and again, I was no kid at that time. If this girl has been chaste she may not even know what sex feels like. We do not all grow up understanding and feeling desire. For women in my mom’s era, it was often something learned after marriage and husbands were taught to be patient with their wives.
While some discussions between the couple and with the priest might be good and fruitful, don’t just assume that if the woman isn’t feeling it yet she’s a cold fish with problems. People are all different. I went through enough trauma as a young person feeling I was sexually abnormal by not being anxious to have intercourse, and I was annoyed at everyone over it, both the secular world that acted like everybody should feel this desire by “a certain age” or they were frigid, and with the Church who had built this act up into such a big thing and not been frank about it perhaps not living up to great expectations.
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FloridaCatholic
Guest
It’s not normal
Tis_Bearself
Patron
“It’s not normal” = Exhibit A that proves the point of my post.
I would add that by the time I reached my 30s, I found I was quite normal.
I would add that by the time I reached my 30s, I found I was quite normal.
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dochawk
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I’ve never even heard of people thinking of it that way.If a girlfriend/boyfriend views sex within marriage as a debt to be paid, a la “the marital debt”, it’s best to not consider this person as someone you would marry.
It’s a non-graphical euphemism for polite company and discussion, much like “breaking wind” and other such phrases . . .
hawk
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Axsenex
Guest
It’s too good to read all reactions.
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therese1998
Guest
I agree that disparate sexual libidos CAN be a problem in a marriage. OTOH, marriage is SO much more than sex and it’s not at all unusual for women to have a lower libido than men.
In some marriages, sex is a big thing that must be addressed or it threatens the integrity of the marriage. In other marriages, it is truly a side issue. Sex can not make your marriage good, but arguments about it can turn a good marriage contentious.
I would advise that you have a conversation, many conversations, with your girlfriend about this. You simply don’t know where she’s coming from. There’s a difference between being asexual and being inexperienced. Many, many, many young women in the world today are having sexual experiences before marriage not because they feel desire but because most men won’t stay in a relationship with a woman if there isn’t sex. They want the intimacy of a relationship and sex is the price. Add to that the absolute insistence of the media and secular society that all anyone should want or think about is when they can have their next sexual encounter and it’s just a given that you will have to address the issue of sex within a relationship sooner rather than later.
However, if you have been raised to value virginity and chastity and you have strong support for that, plus the wonder of a man who is also a virgin and willing to wait until marriage, then I would say it’s an issue of inexperience. She doesn’t know how she will react to the sexual experience and neither do you. If you commit to marry her, you commit to discovering the answer together…whatever it is.
In some marriages, sex is a big thing that must be addressed or it threatens the integrity of the marriage. In other marriages, it is truly a side issue. Sex can not make your marriage good, but arguments about it can turn a good marriage contentious.
I would advise that you have a conversation, many conversations, with your girlfriend about this. You simply don’t know where she’s coming from. There’s a difference between being asexual and being inexperienced. Many, many, many young women in the world today are having sexual experiences before marriage not because they feel desire but because most men won’t stay in a relationship with a woman if there isn’t sex. They want the intimacy of a relationship and sex is the price. Add to that the absolute insistence of the media and secular society that all anyone should want or think about is when they can have their next sexual encounter and it’s just a given that you will have to address the issue of sex within a relationship sooner rather than later.
However, if you have been raised to value virginity and chastity and you have strong support for that, plus the wonder of a man who is also a virgin and willing to wait until marriage, then I would say it’s an issue of inexperience. She doesn’t know how she will react to the sexual experience and neither do you. If you commit to marry her, you commit to discovering the answer together…whatever it is.
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Rob15
Guest
I’m sorry Mary888 but I’m feeling
A bit attacked by your last response. To say I may not deserve her because she has the strength to stay a Virgin is more than a bit harsh I think. I never said her chastity or lack of interest was a flaw or said anything about wanting otherwise, nor did I say anything about not “appreciating “ the sensibilities of a Virgin, her virtue is one the big reasons I love her so much. Since I haven’t been there I was simply trying to ask other faithful Catholics who have experienced this whether it’s normal or a red flag or simply something we should talk about further at this stage. I think I found the constructive advice I was looking for from Therese1988. I apologize I Wasn’t trying to offend or start an argument. Thanks for the guidance everyone!
A bit attacked by your last response. To say I may not deserve her because she has the strength to stay a Virgin is more than a bit harsh I think. I never said her chastity or lack of interest was a flaw or said anything about wanting otherwise, nor did I say anything about not “appreciating “ the sensibilities of a Virgin, her virtue is one the big reasons I love her so much. Since I haven’t been there I was simply trying to ask other faithful Catholics who have experienced this whether it’s normal or a red flag or simply something we should talk about further at this stage. I think I found the constructive advice I was looking for from Therese1988. I apologize I Wasn’t trying to offend or start an argument. Thanks for the guidance everyone!
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Lea101
Guest
I’m going to look at this from a different angle.
Do you think she’s comfortable with talking about sexual desire with you? Some women (who are virgins) may feel really awkward talking about sex because they probably spent their whole lives seeing sex as forbidden. Also if she’s avoiding lust she probably shoots down desire any time she feels it so it’s not like her day is constantly filled with sex all the time. Not all women are the same, but for me personally I always avoid sex in discussions because I still feel like awkward talking about it (e.g. If my friend asks if I have ever watched porn I would immediately act like I never ever found it appealing).
If she is really open about sex and she still says that she doesn’t feel much desire at all, I would definitely talk about this more with her.
Do you think she’s comfortable with talking about sexual desire with you? Some women (who are virgins) may feel really awkward talking about sex because they probably spent their whole lives seeing sex as forbidden. Also if she’s avoiding lust she probably shoots down desire any time she feels it so it’s not like her day is constantly filled with sex all the time. Not all women are the same, but for me personally I always avoid sex in discussions because I still feel like awkward talking about it (e.g. If my friend asks if I have ever watched porn I would immediately act like I never ever found it appealing).
If she is really open about sex and she still says that she doesn’t feel much desire at all, I would definitely talk about this more with her.
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glorybe
Guest
In fact, I don’t think a good priest would agree to be a witness to a marriage between a couple where the female (or male) had no interest in sex. Seriously. Because that could definitely be the case for a future annulment.One spouse is going to feel rejected, unloved, and resentful. Even lied to, since they presumably entered the marriage with the expectation that sex would be a part of it. Not the entirety, obviously, but a part.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is true. Some people have a higher libido and other people see sex as a really important affirmation of their own attractiveness or masculinity/ femininity and feel personally insulted if their partner isn’t in the mood. Other people see it as just one part of a relationship that may even be less central than other forms of sharing, such as cuddling or conversation or sharing another important interest. That doesn’t mean they don’t like sex at all or have some physical/ mental problem, it just means it’s not a top priority.In some marriages, sex is a big thing that must be addressed or it threatens the integrity of the marriage. In other marriages, it is truly a side issue.
Amen to all of the above. And many of these sexual experiences these girls are having are lousy. The girl might not tell anyone it’s lousy for a variety of reasons. Many, many books and movies and magazine articles have dealt with this, the classic being the diner scene in “When Harry Met Sally”.Many, many, many young women in the world today are having sexual experiences before marriage not because they feel desire but because most men won’t stay in a relationship with a woman if there isn’t sex. They want the intimacy of a relationship and sex is the price. Add to that the absolute insistence of the media and secular society that all anyone should want or think about is when they can have their next sexual encounter
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
This is a good point and one I didn’t consider, although if she doesn’t feel she can have a frank discussion about whatever, sex included, with him, that’s also something they need to work on before marriage.Do you think she’s comfortable with talking about sexual desire with you? Some women (who are virgins) may feel really awkward talking about sex because they probably spent their whole lives seeing sex as forbidden. Also if she’s avoiding lust she probably shoots down desire any time she feels it so it’s not like her day is constantly filled with sex all the time. Not all women are the same, but for me personally I always avoid sex in discussions because I still feel like awkward talking about it (e.g. If my friend asks if I have ever watched porn I would immediately act like I never ever found it appealing).
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Lea101
Guest
Definitely, but I’m not sure if talking openly about their sexual desires before engagement is the best idea?
I think he could use some advice on how to talk about these things rather than asking whether it’s a red flag or not tbh. Of course, I wouldn’t know what to say here.
I think he could use some advice on how to talk about these things rather than asking whether it’s a red flag or not tbh. Of course, I wouldn’t know what to say here.
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
Maybe not breathy descriptions in pornographic detail, but they do need to be able to discuss it in some detail.Definitely, but I’m not sure if talking openly about their sexual desires before engagement is the best idea?
The basic point I’m trying to make is that if he’s going into marriage looking forward to having an active sex life and she’s viewing sex as a gross chore she’s going to have to tolerate once in awhile, then their marriage is barreling towards a cliff at 90 mph with the brakes cut. They gotta figure this one out.
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Lea101
Guest
I don’t think she’s seeing sex as gross. I get the impression she’s just not excited to have sex with him. That is why I assumed what I assumed earlier. I felt that she may be awkward to say she’s excited to do it, or if I’m reading OP’s post literally, she basically talked about other stuff she was excited for and she didn’t bring up sex that much?
I don’t know. There’s definitely a need to talk about it or else we’ll be seeing a heated thread on the marital debt in a couple of years LOL.
That being said, as someone who’s doing a half decent job at staying away from sexual sin, it’s hard for me to gauge my own libido so this is something I’m curious about
I don’t know. There’s definitely a need to talk about it or else we’ll be seeing a heated thread on the marital debt in a couple of years LOL.
That being said, as someone who’s doing a half decent job at staying away from sexual sin, it’s hard for me to gauge my own libido so this is something I’m curious about
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
Yeah, maybe “gross” is strong. “Meh” is the impression of her interest in sex I got from the OP.
Which, to be clear, doesn’t make her a bad person. Some people just have low libidos, which is fine. Some people have high libidos, which is also fine. The problem comes in the mismatch. It’s like planting a time bomb of resentment and hurt feelings that is going to explode in a few years.
That said, you do make a good point…maybe she has a perfectly normal libido and has just really internalized the idea that “nice girls” don’t talk about that or acknowledge it or whatever.
Which, to be clear, doesn’t make her a bad person. Some people just have low libidos, which is fine. Some people have high libidos, which is also fine. The problem comes in the mismatch. It’s like planting a time bomb of resentment and hurt feelings that is going to explode in a few years.
That said, you do make a good point…maybe she has a perfectly normal libido and has just really internalized the idea that “nice girls” don’t talk about that or acknowledge it or whatever.
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bquinnan
Guest
I might have worded some things differently, but I think Mary’s post raises some great points.
You are both virgins. What is great about that is that you will get to uncover the mysteries of physical intimacy together. However, mysteries necessarily involve the unknown, and people may have different feelings toward the unknown. It is not as though your fiancé has said that she wants celibate marriage - she just isn’t all that excited about the idea of having sex. This is a perfectly okay feeling to have.
It may work in your favor. Things can be a little awkward and clumsy at first - you don’t needed the added pressure of unrealistic expectations.
Also, there are likely almost know couples that desire intercourse equipment. If they are committed to the Sacrament of Marriage, the find ways to work it out. Sex is an important part of marriage, but there is a lot more to the relationship than that.
Are you going through pre-Cana classes? That may help you address some of your concerns.
You are both virgins. What is great about that is that you will get to uncover the mysteries of physical intimacy together. However, mysteries necessarily involve the unknown, and people may have different feelings toward the unknown. It is not as though your fiancé has said that she wants celibate marriage - she just isn’t all that excited about the idea of having sex. This is a perfectly okay feeling to have.
It may work in your favor. Things can be a little awkward and clumsy at first - you don’t needed the added pressure of unrealistic expectations.
Also, there are likely almost know couples that desire intercourse equipment. If they are committed to the Sacrament of Marriage, the find ways to work it out. Sex is an important part of marriage, but there is a lot more to the relationship than that.
Are you going through pre-Cana classes? That may help you address some of your concerns.
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Axsenex
Guest
If you can’t deal with that then I guess move on is the best option.
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