Girls as alter servers

[BlackKnight]

Originally Posted by ChemicalBean

Well, today is your day. Now a college senior, I served Mass at my home parish from 4th grade (the spring of my first year, '94, I was told by my pastor that I was ‘legal’; I had no idea what he meant and figured that I had finally been enrolled on some archdiocesan registry of altar servers!) all the way through graduation, and still serve on occasion when I come back for vacations and am called upon.

I credit my altar-serving experience for introducing me to some very dedicated priests, getting me interested in my faith, and jump-starting a prayer life and a relationship with Jesus - all because I wanted to get away from my parents in the pews and get noticed. One time I was asked to serve for an archdiocesan Chrism Mass and was pretty much the archbishop’s right-hand woman Whodathunkit? That experience alone was a defining moment in my journey. I was surrounded by all these different people (deacons, priests, bishops, men and women religious, musicians, lay faithful…) gathered under one roof. It put forth the searing question, “How do I fit into this Body of Christ?”

To my joy and my chagrin, the idea of vocation has continually presented itself throughout my college years. It has taken a lot of talking, and wrestling, and imagining, and surrendering to get me to the point today where I would admit that God is very likely inviting me to the life of a contemplative monastic. Initially it seemed like the most illogical thing in the world, given my background and goals, but through much discernment and prayer, it seems very natural and brings me peace. All I can say is that I can’t not try it, and I yearn for the day when I can actually go for it. Please pray for me and for my folks - it’s not an easy bit for them to swallow.I REALLY appreciate your post CB, and please know that I will include you in all my prayers as well. This is pretty much what I was thinking and I’m grateful to God that He used it that way in your life.

May He do so with many many more faithful souls like you.
May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be always with you.

 

[BlackKnight]

It’s remarkable just how powerful the forces of PCism and sexism/feminism are in the Church, else this entire thread would be moot as there wouldn’t be any female altar servers if the faithful actually placed the Church ahead of their own desires…

This discussion has about ZIP to do with the things that you have named and it’s probably wrong for you to assert that it does.

Answer us this then? Just what exactly do you do in your parish?

I’m maxed out on the stuff that I can do.

The girls are as good as the guys are and in some cases better. That’s a fact. .

 

[mrs_abbott]

Well-said. You explained my original point in great detail!

cecelia:

I realize that this is not a doctrinal issue as such, but I must admit that I’m a little disappointed in the response given by the Vatican regarding girls at the altar.Yes the debate shouldn’t be couched in political terms, nor should it couched in terms of socializing boys and girls differently either. Having girls at the altar of sacrifice is sharp break from the Biblical priesthood and as such, the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar. Am I denigrating girls? Not at all. But if the Mass is the re-presentation of Calvary/Last Supper, then it should be re-presented accurately. It was to 12 men that Christ instituted the priesthood, and it is the priest/male that is Alter Christus (sp). So to have women on the altar subtly changes the re-presentation, and in so doing alters the full import of the re-presentation. The Old Testament sacrifices were always attended to by males. Why should the New Testament sacrifice be different. Breaking the manner of attending to the altar of sacrifice, in my opinion, leads to a shift in perception and, consequently, a shift in our approach to the altar. If we stop and think about it for a minute, notice how we act when we are witness to an all-male altar, with the altar boys in cossack and surplice and the priest properly dressed and the actions of the priest and the altar boys in accord with the ancient rituals. We as the congregation then tend to be more reverent because we have more of a sense of the sacrifice of the altar. With girls at the altar, the sacrificial aspect of the Mass becomes a little more muffled. A little more casualness creeps in, whether intended or not, because the girls are innately not part of the re-presentation. I wish that we would reference or locate this discussion in terms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and what it is intended to do. If we did that, looking at the continuity of the Mass and its origins in the Old Testament, we would see that the altar should be populated by men and boys. Girls and the altar with the alb look like priestesses. Female Extradordinary Ministers of the Eucharist on the altar strip the altar of is sacrificial aspect and lend an air of busyness and clamor. The altar in which Christ re-presents himself to us is the most holy representation of the Incarnation. We should re-present it accurately, especially in this time and age when the world is rapidly losing any sense of holiness, sacredness,and sublimity. To witness the priest standing in for Christ surrounding by those who look like him on the altar of sacrifice is awe inspiring and brings us closer to God. Having girls on the altar of sacrifice does not, simply because they’re presence does not enable the full impact of the sacrifice to resonate within us.

 

[aurora77]

rwoehmke:

What you say about altar girls may be true, but then I have to look at many of our parishes and ask who carries the load on many parish councils and committees, who are our teachers in Catholic Schools, why does it seem that more women are attending Mass on both weekdays and Sundays, how many women work in our chancery offices and so on and so forth? We men may have the priesthood and the hierarchy, but it is by and large a female dominated Faith. So…I guess what would you expect under the circumstances? Oh yeah and even our choirs are predominately made up of females with a couple of males for tenor and bass.

I see the same thing in my parish. We do have a very dedicated Knights of Columbus group, but by and large, much is left to the women of the parish. Men need to buck up and start taking responsibility for their Church–start reading at Mass more often, teach CCD classes, go to daily Mass and Adoration. Basically men are the role models for the boys out there and they need to act like it. If we want more vocations to the priesthood and religious life, we as a Catholic culture/church need to work to foster them. As a woman I’m tired of hearing the excuse that girls and women are pushing men out–if more men would step up that wouldn’t be the case. The reason that more boys aren’t altar servers is because they aren’t being encouraged to do that by the parents and CCD teachers.

 

[mrs_abbott]

We’re not saying to eliminate them, we’re just stating our opinions that maybe it shouldn’t have happened because the position of altar server being filled by boys gave them an opportunity to experience the Mass first-hand and perhaps help foster vocations to the priesthood.

Annunciata:

I don’t lie. Yes, I agree w/ you…there are bigger problems but that is not for this thread.
My sons grew up next door to the church and had some very holy priests as examples(not in my present parish)… my husband and I fostered an atmosphere of good Catholic culture in our daily living and they both attended Catholic schools…neither had a desire to become a priest! I would have loved that more than I can express…
We now have Altar girls which I’m not totally in favor of…but since it is happening and by the approval of our Bishops are we to tell all those sweet nice little girls who just want to serve Jesus…Go away???..we don’t want you because you are FEMALE! No my good man…that is not the answer…

 

[mrs_abbott]

Remember, this whole thread was started by me, a FEMALE!!!

Annunciata:

Thank you BlackKnight…at least you are a gentleman and from your post set an example of a real Catholic Christian…

 

[BlackKnight]

AltarMan:

While altar girls are certainly (currently) allowed by the Church under most circumstances, their use is certainly not mandated, nor is it even recommended (as it certainly is with males.) I think the primary reasons for not allowing female altar servers is quite clear:

Not so! This is just as you say here, nothing more than what YOU think.

• They fill-up slots that should be reserved for males who might just possibly be discerning a call to the priesthood or permanent diaconate. Because serving at the altar has historically been such an important means to foster such vocations, all altar server slots should be reserved for male.

Non-sequitur logic.

• The use of altar girls was approved as a response to gross abuse and dissent. That’s a horrible foundation for any change. Until the Holy See once again restricts altar serving to males, it makes sense not to perpetuate the rather sleazy basis for the current situation.

If you say so, but it’s unrealistic of you to expect so, and perhaps this is something that the church has realized does no harm and, as I’ve pointed out before, extends the same discernment of religious calling to the girls who volunteer. The only people I hear complaining about this seem to be those who want everything back to pre Vat 2 anyway, which is NOT going to occur.

Just a thought…The Council of Trent was also “a response to gross abuse and dissent.” Do you suggest that it also was “a horrible foundation for any change.” ?

• Females cannot serve in all the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Unity on this issue is important, and I hardly see the Easterners allowing female servers en masse.

Not your problem, (or mine). Leave that in the hands of the Pope, since he’s the one who ultimately has dealt with both issues and will continue to do so.

• It promotes false expectations and hopes. “If women can serve, why can’t they be riests…?”

Only in the minds of people like you or those who wish to reject something that the church has already spoken to and laid to rest. This is just throwing dust in the air and creating a problem that (again) is not our problem, and has (as I just pointed out) been already dealt with.

• It ruins a wonderful tradition that wasn’t hurting anything – except perhaps the egos of some sexist/feminists.

Traditions can and do change. Wasn’t hurting anything you say? So the lack of altar server volunteers, like the lack of sufficient priests wasn’t hurting anything?

I don’t see any sexists or feminist serving at the altar in my parish. I see devout and reverent servers, some boys, some girls, but mostly I don’t see them anyway, because I am too focused on the liturgy of the Mass to notice.

 

[BlackKnight]

I see the same thing in my parish. … Men need to buck up and start taking responsibility for their Church–start reading at Mass more often, teach CCD classes, go to daily Mass and Adoration. Basically men are the role models for the boys out there and they need to act like it. If we want more vocations to the priesthood and religious life, we as a Catholic culture/church need to work to foster them. As a woman I’m tired of hearing the excuse that girls and women are pushing men out–if more men would step up that wouldn’t be the case. The reason that more boys aren’t altar servers is because they aren’t being encouraged to do that by the parents and CCD teachers.

My point exactly!

 

[mrs_abbott]

Who’s to say what the Church might change in one year or even ten years from now?
I’d like to think that the priesthood is just going to be restricted to males but all it takes is a few active liberals in the Vatican over the course of time to change that.
I’m not saying that allowing girls to serve Mass is going to be the foundation for that decision if and when it ever happens but I guarantee you that if the Church ever allows women as priestesses, the girl altar server issue will be to blame for that.
Ask God to give our new Pope guidance in this ever-changing world and to keep the Catholic Church holy and in-sync with the Tradition that was laid down thousands of years ago by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[AltarMan]

rwoehmke:

What you say about altar girls may be true, but then I have to look at many of our parishes and ask who carries the load on many parish councils and committees, who are our teachers in Catholic Schools, why does it seem that more women are attending Mass on both weekdays and Sundays, how many women work in our chancery offices and so on and so forth? We men may have the priesthood and the hierarchy, but it is by and large a female dominated Faith. So…I guess what would you expect under the circumstances? Oh yeah and even our choirs are predominately made up of females with a couple of males for tenor and bass.

Oh, I’m not so sure about that, but I will suggest that altar girls have certainly made serving less available and less inviting to males – particularly young males.

 

[AltarMan]

I see the same thing in my parish. We do have a very dedicated Knights of Columbus group, but by and large, much is left to the women of the parish. ** Men need to buck up and start taking responsibility for their Church**–start reading at Mass more often, teach CCD classes, go to daily Mass and Adoration. Basically men are the role models for the boys out there and they need to act like it. If we want more vocations to the priesthood and religious life, we as a Catholic culture/church need to work to foster them. As a woman I’m tired of hearing the excuse that girls and women are pushing men out–if more men would step up that wouldn’t be the case. The reason that more boys aren’t altar servers is because they aren’t being encouraged to do that by the parents and CCD teachers.

At my parish (where perhaps slightly more women take part in “liturgical ministries”) those involved protect their places in the different liturgical ministries with a vengence. It’s status and exposure.

You want to be a reader or an EMHC or a server? Good luck – and you had better be part of the “club.”

 

[AltarMan]

BlackKnight:

Not so! This is just as you say here, nothing more than what YOU think.Non-sequitur logic.
If you say so, but it’s unrealistic of you to expect so, and perhaps this is something that the church has realized does no harm and, as I’ve pointed out before, extends the same discernment of religious calling to the girls who volunteer. The only people I hear complaining about this seem to be those who want everything back to pre Vat 2 anyway, which is NOT going to occur.

Just a thought…The Council of Trent was also “a response to gross abuse and dissent.” Do you suggest that it also was “a horrible foundation for any change.” ?Not your problem, (or mine). Leave that in the hands of the Pope, since he’s the one who ultimately has dealt with both issues and will continue to do snly in the minds of people like you or those who wish to reject something that the church has already spoken to and laid to rest. This is just throwing dust in the air and creating a problem that (again) is not our problem, and has (as I just pointed out) been already dealt with. Traditions can and do change. Wasn’t hurting anything you say? So the lack of altar server volunteers, like the lack of sufficient priests wasn’t hurting anything?

I don’t see any sexists or feminist serving at the altar in my parish. I see devout and reverent servers, some boys, some girls, but mostly I don’t see them anyway, because I am too focused on the liturgy of the Mass to notice.

Your retort smacks strongly of what I will term “PCism” and “sexist/feminism.” In brief, it’s wrong, but it does cast a bit of light on something that I find very interesting here locally.

With the coming of a new Pope, a new bishop (here locally), and documents like RS, are those that are driven by PCism and sexism/feminsm beginning to feel the heat? I’m beginning to notice just a taste of desperation and I’m curious as to its genesis.

 

[aurora77]

AltarMan:

At my parish (where perhaps slightly more women take part in “liturgical ministries”) those involved protect their places in the different liturgical ministries with a vengence. It’s status and exposure.

You want to be a reader or an EMHC or a server? Good luck – and you had better be part of the “club.”

That’s your parish, not necessarily indicative of the whole church. My parish is not that way at all, again, not necessarily indicative of anything. It sounds like your parish has some issues and altar girls are least of the problem.

 

[AltarMan]

mrs_abbott:

Who’s to say what the Church might change in one year or even ten years from now?
I’d like to think that the priesthood is just going to be restricted to males but all it takes is a few active liberals in the Vatican over the course of time to change that.
I’m not saying that allowing girls to serve Mass is going to be the foundation for that decision if and when it ever happens but I guarantee you that if the Church ever allows women as priestesses, the girl altar server issue will be to blame for that.
Ask God to give our new Pope guidance in this ever-changing world and to keep the Catholic Church holy and in-sync with the Tradition that was laid down thousands of years ago by our Lord Jesus Christ.

No. The Church does not have the authority to ordain women as defined in * Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.* That’s a done deal.

From a practical standpoint, with a bad pope and the wrong social atmosphere, I suppose an attempt could be made to ordain women. Rest assured that all hell would break loose.

I have a strong confidence that the Holy Spirit would squelch such mischief.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Let’s hope you’re right.

 

[Catholic2003]

* The use of altar girls was approved as a response to gross abuse and dissent. That’s a horrible foundation for any change. Until the Holy See once again restricts altar serving to males, it makes sense not to perpetuate the rather sleazy basis for the current situation.

If a scandalous introduction makes a disciplinary change unworthy, then we should abolish the rule regarding priestly celibacy, seeing how the wives and children of married priests were given into perpetual slavery by the various decrees of the Church.

But if your sensibilities are different, perhaps you should suggest that former altar girls be given into slavery when the “male only” rule for altar servers is reestablished. I’m sure this will get the attention of those feminists who are trying to destroy the Church.

 

[BlackKnight]

AltarMan:

Your retort smacks strongly of what I will term “PCism” and “sexist/feminism.” In brief, it’s wrong, but it does cast a bit of light on something that I find very interesting here locally.

With the coming of a new Pope, a new bishop (here locally), and documents like RS, are those that are driven by PCism and sexism/feminsm beginning to feel the heat? I’m beginning to notice just a taste of desperation and I’m curious as to its genesis.

Y’know…your retort smacks of ad hominem.

Wrong in YOUR opinion and a small number of others.

I point out again that the issue is dead because it has been decided by the Holy See and so all the whining about it is just nuisance noise while the rest of the faithful carry on with the work of the church.

The only heat I’ve seen is from guys like you and the handful of others on forums who seem to have decided that you personally know better than the Pope what is best for the faithful.

There was nothing wrong with John Paul II and there is nothing wrong with Benedict XVI, but if the former didn’t bow to your traditionalist agenda (for lack of a better term) and the latter has not then all your argument is just more noise.

I suspect that if you were busy working in your parish instead of complaining a lot of stuff might get done for the Kingdom of God, instead of sitting at your keyboard trying to cause divisions that shouldn’t happen.

Prayed your Rosary lately? I did.

 

[BlackKnight]

mrs_abbott:

Remember, this whole thread was started by me, a FEMALE!!!

So noted… but you may have been disappointed, but as has already been demonstrated, in at least one case it has led to the discernment of a religious calling for a girl server.

Just because the church taught something in the past about a tradition or discipline and then changed the discipline really should not have distressed you so much.

Altar servers were not the reason that we had more or less callings to the priesthood. The fact is that Catholics stopped encouraging faithful Catholic young men to even consider it. It was a sin of complacency that led us to the current problems, but I believe that that is beginning to turn around and will continue to do so because God is doing something powerful in His church.

Priests are not the only need within the church. We need more faithful Nuns and other orders as well. If the Holy Spirit uses their altar service as a conduit of grace that leads them to a religious vocation, then the tree was good because the fruit is.

 

[adrift]

BlackKnight:

Y’know…your retort smacks of ad hominem.
Gosh doesn’t yours?

I point out again that the issue is dead because it has been decided by the Holy See and so all the whining about it is just nuisance noise while the rest of the faithful carry on with the work of the church.

T.

Are you saying that having altar girls is a dead issue? Does that mean you feel this is an infalible pronouncement?

I have been in my present parrish for over twenty years. The boys have disappeared from the altar. It is a reality. I know one little boy who wanted to do gymnastics but refused because there were only girls. It is a reality. I believe your remarks could use a little more charity or do I need to duck?

 

[MrS]

BlackKnight:

Y’know…your retort smacks of ad hominem.

Wrong in YOUR opinion and a small number of others.

I will keep my type at the normal size “2”, so as not to scream at you. But there are a larger, and ever growing number of “traditional-practiceing” Catholics… and an even faster growing number of like minded new priests.

I point out again that the issue is dead because it has been decided by the Holy See and so all the whining about it is just nuisance noise while the rest of the faithful carry on with the work of the church.

Obviously that is YOUR opinion. The issue of correcting abuses and innovations is not dead. It may result, however, is what Pope Benedict XVI has predicted… that the church will become smaller and stronger.

The only heat I’ve seen is from guys like you and the handful of others on forums who seem to have decided that you personally know better than the Pope what is best for the faithful.

*A common result… confusing light with heat *

There was nothing wrong with John Paul II and there is nothing wrong with Benedict XVI, but if the former didn’t bow to your traditionalist agenda (for lack of a better term) and the latter has not then all your argument is just more noise.

Be patient… the pope will correct and teach us.

I suspect that if you were busy working in your parish instead of complaining a lot of stuff might get done for the Kingdom of God, instead of sitting at your keyboard trying to cause divisions that shouldn’t happen.

*wow… touched a nerve huh… thou dost protest too loudly… *

Prayed your Rosary lately? I did.

good for you… now pray for discernment