Girls "tempting" boys

[eichenb2]

1 Timothy 2, 9 “In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair or gold, or pearls or costly attire.”

1. Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires ones choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is descreet. (italics CM)

 

[nmoerbeek]

I would understand that you were damaged and didn’t know any better. And then I would try to educate you. And you would probably resist that education, no matter how lovingly offered, because it would violate everything you knew from your formative experiences. It takes a lot for people to break out of the patterns and assumptions they are raised with.

Luke 13:6-9

…A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’"

We are all held accountable for our actions if the means of discourse for education are presented multiple times under the right situations then ignorance can no longer be claimed. At a point a person does become an instrument for wickedness.

 

[latinmasslover]

I would understand that you were damaged and didn’t know any better. And then I would try to educate you. And you would probably resist that education, no matter how lovingly offered, because it would violate everything you knew from your formative experiences. It takes a lot for people to break out of the patterns and assumptions they are raised with.

Fair enough, and I never said we shouldn’t inform women who were raised this way. Surely you’re not saying that women are so stupid that they can’t put 2 and 2 together, because men are constantly getting ragged because of this. And I did not call these women sluts and harlots, and said that their dress implied it, and if that’s the image they choose to give the world, then they really have no business complaining when they’re treated as such.

 

[nmoerbeek]

Even if they don’t understand how their lack of modesty is causing their problems? People can be and are irreparably damaged by their formative experiences. For you to dismiss that and say that they bear the full culpability of actions they may not even understand are wrong is one of the most uncompassionate things I have ever read.

Im sorry are you serious? Do you really think that young women do not know that certain types of clothes draws the attention of men? I suppose it is possible I just think it is highly unlikely. After all isn’t that why they are wearing it to begin with?

 

[eichenb2]

Standards of Modesty in Dress

Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956

“A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.”

The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII

 

[basilisk]

I’m not saying women are stupid, but our psychological makeup has an extremely strong hold on most of us. Why do some women stay with men who beat them? Many of them will say it’s because it’s better to have any man than to be alone. Many of them think it’s better for kids to have any father than no father. These women think this way because they are so damaged that they literally believe these things. And these beliefs and determinations of value come from their family of origin. Some people are rendered inert by paralyzing fear if they try to do anything that vilolates the paradigm they were taught. Some people are neutralized by anxiety so strong that they cannot act or think. They don’t know the origins of these barriers, most likely, they just know they can’t get past them. Evaluating these things objectively would be so painful that they just never do it without a massive, life-changing event.

This same kind of thing is where a lot of substance abuse and addiction comes from. People are numbing the pain, fear, or anxiety it causes them to think about changing their life. These psychological barriers are so powerful that some people never get past them and destroy their own lives because of it!

I am not saying we can never hold people accountable for anything. I myself have had long debates with myself and my husband about where the lines are, because we can’t just let people get away with and do ANYTHING based on being handicapped by their upbringing. But it’s a relevant contributor, sometimes insurmountable.

Compassion for that, and treating people as misguided (instead of evil) until we have reason not to, is all I am advocating.

For women dressing immodestly, I am sure that they do know that they attract male attention. That is probably their goal. What I am saying is that they may not realize why that is wrong, or why it causes men to disrespect them. If they have been taught that their only value lies in their ability to attract men, then they will not want to change their dress, because then they would not have a means to support their ego or self-esteem. And again, this is all psychological stuff of which most people are not even aware. Many people’s motivations are mysteries to them.

 

[mpernot]

Seeing as how I said I went to Confession, I think I hardly advertised anything as a “get out of jail free” card. All I said was that I don’t think masturbation is always a mortal sin. In fact, and this is only my personal opinion, I think it’s a venial sin in most cases involving most people. I think the circumstances and motivation required to make one culpable for mortal sin don’t occur in most cases of masturbation.

I was not considering that any of your personal experiences were up for discussion, I was talking strictly about the issue. And seeing how Jason Evert suggests one of the ways to overcome the addition to masturbation is to receive the Eucharist, I would tend to think that it could be a venial sin. If the Catechism suggests consideration of other circumstances as you pointed out, it could possibly be both depending on the situation. I don’t definitively know if it is is venial or mortal (I’ve heard cases for both), so I won’t try to argue either way. That wasn’t my argument.

The Church has compassion and understands human weakness, human failing, and sometimes the inability of humans to break out of their prisons, even if self-imposed. Point that out, and somehow you’re on a “slippery slope” toward total moral anarchy.

I don’t think so. There’s always been gray areas in moral theology because most of it must factor in intent by its very nature. Compassion and understanding of human weakness are necessary if we are to live by Christ, but I wouldn’t use these traits to try to justify actions which are so obviously condemned by the magisterium. Notice I said the action was obviously condemned; I didn’t say anything about passing judgement.

As, in my copy of the Catechism, the second paragraph of 2352 is on a separate page from the first, I’ll have to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn’t see it. I apologize… I guess I have seen too many people edit Catechism and Bible quotes to try and make them mean something they don’t.

That’s fine, it also gets me going when I find that people have twisted Scripture/church documents out of context to meet their ulterior motives. I looked this up online, but I expected CCC 2352 to be one paragraph (as most of the other paragraphs I’ve ever referenced were), so I missed the second part. Honest mistake, which is why I said so right away. I do not approve of anyone misrepresenting the faith including myself, so I will definitely say that was my mistake.

 

[eichenb2]

“For women dressing immodestly, I am sure that they do know that they attract male attention. That is probably their goal. What I am saying is that they may not realize why that is wrong, or why it causes men to disrespect them. If they have been taught that their only value lies in their ability to attract men, then they will not want to change their dress, because then they would not have a means to support their ego or self-esteem.”

Sounds like catechesis time! For the boys too!

 

[basilisk]

Sounds like catechesis time! For the boys too!

That’s great. But we can’t just drag unconsenting adults into catechism class, nor other people’s children. Which is why we have to err on the side of considering them to be in honest error, and treating them kindly, in the hope that maybe one day we will be in a position of friendship or trust where we might be able to catechize. Calling them names and ascribing evil intent to them based on how they dress will accomplish none of that. We also have to accept that they may not accept our catechesis. Or, they may accept the idea of modesty, but disagree about what is immodest.

We also have to not be Puritans and be reasonable in our own standards of modesty, and for what it’s worth, I won’t be using sources from 1954 to determine standards of modesty. I have never worn gloves in my life except as protection from cold, nor covered my head at Mass, both considered imperative in 1954. I also don’t hesitate to use the word “pregnant” in polite company, which in 1954 would have been indecent. Look at “I Love Lucy.” They were not ALLOWED to use the word “pregnant.” She was “in the family way” or “expecting” or some other euphemism. Times change, and that’s not all bad.

 

[mpernot]

Do you really think that people cannot be almost totally morally handicapped by their formative experiences?

Besides, the Nazi war criminals demonstrated that they had at least some knowledge that what they were doing was wrong by the fact that they tried to HIDE it. The last days of the war in Germany were largely spent in document destruction… thankfully not complete, so the prosecutions could take place.

That was my whole point. There are a lot of people (guys and girls) that are dressing immodestly, dancing immodestly, talking immodestly, etc. A whole lot of people have lifestyles of lust and they know it. How? We have the Holy Spirit as our conscience telling us what is right and wrong. People know when they are being used and they know when they are using - this isn’t an accident. Just as the Nazis tried to hide their crimes, those who practice immodesty and lust as a lifestyle have to silence their consciences. This is why I brought up Nurenburg; one can’t just blame something/someone else for their wrongdoing when they have chosen the wrong (even if by choosing not to go against it).

 

[eichenb2]

I, mostly, agree. Catholics should not be puritans about it and it needs to be in the spirit of love. On the other hand, we should not just throw our hands up and let the culture be the arbriter of modesty.

The parish priest, and especially the preacher, when occasion arises, should, according to the words of the Apostle Paul (2 Tim. iv, 2), insist, argue exhort and command that feminine garb be based on modesty and womanly ornament be a defense of virtue. Let them likewise admonish parents to cause their daughters to cease wearing indecorous dress.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Do you really think that young women do not know that certain types of clothes draws the attention of men? I suppose it is possible I just think it is highly unlikely. After all isn’t that why they are wearing it to begin with?

You didn’t address me, but I wish to respond.

Yes, I seriously believe that some young women have little idea about the effect of their clothing choice on men.

Girls turn to women practically overnight. What looks sweet and innocent on a young girl looks sexy on a young woman with curves. I sometimes watch old movies and the child star Shirley Temple wore very short dresses when she innocently sang and danced into American’s hearts half a century ago.

Women often want to look nice and keeping up with fashions is part of that. Yes, I realize that some clothing fashions are immodest, but even decent clothing can go from modest to immodest by shrinking in the wash or a slight weight gain.

While we try to look presentable, most women don’t inspect ourselves from every angle before we leave the house. Men who are usually taller or who may be standing behind a woman have a different view than what she can see of herself in the mirror.

Attractive young women attract men’s attention no matter what they wear–that’s why they are called “attractive.” And yes, most women know that what they wear and how they act can attract men more, but women attracting men isn’t a problem. Immodesty, vanity and lust are problems.

Modesty, humilty and chastity are virtues that we need to learn and teach. We don’t do that by placing all the attractive women in ugly tents–that would make modesty and chastity appear less attractive. Virtue is beautiful. Virtuous young women can be innocent and beautiful too.

 

[chevalier]

Standards of Modesty in Dress

Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956

“A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.”

The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII

Just for the record, imprimatur means it’s not inconsistent with Church teaching, but it doesn’t make it binding. The Church has generally avoided getting into detailed specifics of this matter, such as precise numbers. Your own quotation below is a probably answer as to why.

I, mostly, agree. Catholics should not be puritans about it and it needs to be in the spirit of love. On the other hand, we should not just throw our hands up and let the culture be the arbriter of modesty.

Yeah, firstly, it’s not about inches. Secondly, it’s about the spirit, not the letter. Additionally, the moment you adopt a precise standard, people find a way around it. Not sure if this is what you’d agree with, but it’s how I see it.

Modesty, humilty and chastity are virtues that we need to learn and teach. We don’t do that by placing all the attractive women in ugly tents–that would make modesty and chastity appear less attractive. Virtue is beautiful. Virtuous young women can be innocent and beautiful too.

Agreed. For the umpteenth time I will say that modest dress is more likely to attract men who respect women. Besides, classy dress attracts classy men and trashy dress is not classy. Good attention will be gained regardless of the big cleavage (or something else) or lack of it - or even more of good attention will be gained without it. Showing too much attracts the bad attention and that attention is not what is good for a woman. A nicely dressed woman can make men pray thanks to God, an immodestly dressed one can make men pray for her conversion.

 

[TLM08]

It is my firm belief that good woman should wear puritan style garb while in public view… and the Victoria Secret’s “midnight collection” (heels included) for her husband while in the home. This keeps the home fires burning where they belong.

 

[iluvmybabies]

I dunno this is a very interesting subject/thread and boy are my thoughts like going in different directions…

I mean yeah I understand the whole temptation thing and I hear you that if you show a breast or cleavage that makes a man think bad thoughts??? But I used to breast feed my children and even though I always tried to do it in private and in hiding so no one could see me, once in a great while it was like uhm, OMG I can’t believe that happened and a part of my breast would show… I didn’t mean to but I guess it tempted my husband???



When I was a teen and nearly date raped, the guy that went and got my soda for me and my bf put something in my drink, when I passed out and my bff was out looking for me, and found me before he did anything he told her I was asking for it… She asked him how…He told her I looked at him…

 

[eichenb2]

I don’t think anyone if suggesting that women walk around in Burqas. I think the idea is to dress and behave in a modest manner, due to human faults. This is for men and women!!! Just like everything: try your best and let mercy and forgiveness cover the rest. Finally, I consider this issue to be a symptom of a larger problem. Catholic parents, mostly, do not attempt to LIVE THE FAITH in their daily lives. This would include not letting MTV raise your 10-year old. With the dominant culture selling sex, Catholic parents need to set loving limits for their children (and themselves). Perhaps, then the doctrine of modesty will make more sense and young boys will be better equipped to handle this problem.

 

[Lady_Bug]

Speaking of Burqas:

Has dressing like that in Islamic societies (not just burqas though) really helped their men cope with lust any better than we are? I’m asking a serious question.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Speaking of Burqas:

Has dressing like that in Islamic societies (not just burqas though) really helped their men cope with lust any better than we are? I’m asking a serious question.

It would have to depend what the men in question thought of women. In societies where the women are valued and the hijab or burqua is seen as a free choice (but a positive, beautiful choice nonetheless), then it probably does. If not, it’s more of a control method than anything else.

In places like Iran, the situation is the latter and young girls and women get raped for reasons like, “she tempted me” (even if she’s covered) and they end up prosecuted by law for “temptation” and could end up executed.

 

[eichenb2]

My opinion is that it has not helped, for the most part. To be fair, fasting is prescribed in Islam to control appetites (not just food). Also, a good, practicing Muslim man will be aware of the temtations of the flesh and will consciously avoid the sight of woman, not to mention physical contact. After visiting many predominantly Muslim countries, the society at-large is not much different than ours. In fact, I know of one Muslim women who was “felt up” in broad daylight of the Suuq (market).

 

[iluvmybabies]

LOL. Too funny.

Sorry for going off-topic, but I, too, have a beautiful teenage daughter (who, by the way, dresses very modestly).

My standard reply to any young man who expresses interest in my daughter is:

Just watch your step. I may look like an overweight middle-aged has-been, but I have a shotgun, a shovel and two acres of yard in back. If you break my little girl’s heart, you won’t live long to regret it.

(for those who’ve seen 10 Simple Rules for Dating My Daughter, yes, I’ve shamelessly plagiarized this quip.)

LOL sorry but that’s what my db tells me he will do if anyone ever hurts my daughter!! LOL