Give me rational, non-religious arguments for why gay-marriage should be illegal

[fix]

The Catholic Education Resource Center is hardly unbiased,

So is the APA and other professional associations.

I’m sure if judgements about he mental health of straight folks were reached from looking at patients in the practice of psychology, we could say all heterosexual folks are mentally disturbed. But that would just be silly.

Well, there seems to be an authentic psychology and much inauthentic psychology but that is a new thread.

 

[royal_archer]

We subsidize other couples. Why not them?

From a perspective that would appeal to a non-theist such as myself, or frankly, we’ll be canceling each other’s votes, and that’s no good.

Are you not familiar with the concept of human rights? We have the right to offer bennefits to the spouses of our employees with out having to extend those bennefits to anyone who does not meet our criteria.

 

[royal_archer]

Except that there are more than one religion…

Another religious definition for a marriage could in principle be “between a white man and a white woman”. Should we expect the law to comply? I don’t think the law should say anything one way or another about marriage itself. See below…

The principle religions are fairly consistent on this manner.

Though I agree there must be practical limits to the civil union contract (probably a division of benefits based on the number of working participants; after all, consent would bar the 500 children from properly participating), in terms of principle, something deeply bothers me about your argument, from my secular perspective.

If the employer has the right to give out benefits completely based on his values, without respect for law or the values of others at all, what is to prevent him from only giving benefits to white heterosexual protestants, or to black homosexual non-Christians? For some businesses this would seem acceptable (certain private schools, churches, or clubs), but for others (airlines, for example) this would seem unacceptable. It risks limiting freedom to seek gainful employment for otherwise capable human beings.

First homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Where as race is not. It would be more akin to the employer not offering insurance to a non married “significant other” or denying coverage to a smoker. There are 270 million people in this country if I decide not to offer coverage to someone I am not denying there ability to get coverage.they can go to work for themselves or one of the millions of other employers.

 

[royal_archer]

If the public schools stayed away from teaching the morality of sexual behavior, why would it matter? I think public schools should teach kids about all current issues regarding human sexuality, including homosexuality. But teaching morality should be left up to the parents. It’s when public schools start teaching the right or wrongness of sexual behavior that they cross the line, imo

Do you think they should teach kids about other perverted behavior and portray it as normal?

 

[royal_archer]

You state as fact that homosexuality is a mental disorder. Since every major psychological and pediatric association that I know of disagrees with you, unless you have a reliable source to base this on, you should present it as an opinion only.

From Wikpedia:
Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

Homosexuality is a behavioral pattern.
It occurs in an individual.
It causes distress or disability.
It is not expected as a part of normal culture.

By this definition homosexuality is a mental disorder, even if it is politically incorrect to call it such.

 

[Isambard]

From Wikpedia:
Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

Homosexuality is a behavioral pattern.
It occurs in an individual.
It causes distress or disability.
It is not expected as a part of normal culture.

By this definition homosexuality is a mental disorder, even if it is politically incorrect to call it such.

Religious rituals is a behavioural pattern.
It occurs in an individual
It causes distress or disability
It is not expected as a part of a normal (secular) culture.

By your conclusion, catholics suffer from mental disorders.

Then again, you dishonestly quote-mined what the article actually said.

"Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture. The recognition and understanding of mental disorders have changed over time and across cultures. Definitions, assessments, and classifications of mental disorders can vary, but guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals are widely accepted by mental health professionals. Categories of diagnoses in these schemes may include dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, and many other categories. In many cases there is no single accepted or consistent cause of mental disorders, although they are often explained in terms of a diathesis-stress model and biopsychosocial model. "

Makes alot more sense with all the relevant points doesnt it?

 

[RyanML]

Religious rituals is a behavioural pattern.
It occurs in an individual
It causes distress or disability
It is not expected as a part of a normal (secular) culture.

By your conclusion, catholics suffer from mental disorders.

Then again, you dishonestly quote-mined what the article actually said.

"Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture. The recognition and understanding of mental disorders have changed over time and across cultures. Definitions, assessments, and classifications of mental disorders can vary, but guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals are widely accepted by mental health professionals. Categories of diagnoses in these schemes may include dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, and many other categories. In many cases there is no single accepted or consistent cause of mental disorders, although they are often explained in terms of a diathesis-stress model and biopsychosocial model. "

Makes alot more sense with all the relevant points doesnt it?

Thank you, Isambard

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t think that homosexuality is a mental disorder. I’m rather tired of society dubbing everything a disorder. If something can be overcome through willpower and God’s grace, it’s not a disorder. A disorder is something that one has no control over. It gets old calling sins ‘disorders.’ But, it seems policitcally correct I guess. Still offensive I would imagine! I wouldn’t want someone to tell me I have a mental problem because I’m attracted to someone of the same sex.

It’s a sinful way to live, period. Just like adultery. Just like having sex before marriage. If one believes in God, and follows what the Bible teaches, then one can’t follow God, and follow a sinful lifestyle. I mean, he/she can do that, but either fully loving God, and surrendering to morality will win out, or following one’s desires will win out.

Unfortunately, in our society, we have to come up with things like syndromes, etc…to mask sin. Homosexuality isn’t something to be cured from…but if one is acting upon it, (acting upon SSA) it is sinful. Now, if you don’t believe in God’s laws, then you will not see the sin in it. But, one cannot change the Bible…it is plain as day…to not sleep with people of the same sex. It says as plain as day about stealing, murder, fornication, etc…

So, I don’t judge anyone who is homosexual. I don’t believe that they have a mental disorder. I believe that if someone has same sex attraction and acts upon it, and doesn’t repent, then they are living in mortal sin. Sin isn’t what we think it should be…it’s what God thinks it is.

That’s why we’ll always have these threads that go full circle, because you have people who are gay who claim that God made them this way. I think the better way of saying that is…in a fallen world, we’re born with a propensity towards sin. If a person is homosexual, and acts upon it…then it’s his/her ‘cross’ to bear if you will–we all have them. Mine is different than someone who is gay. But, that is really the more ‘rational’ way to view this.

Gay people deserve the same human rights as us all, and if civil unions is considered a right …it still won’t change the sinful aspect of it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JRamosSFO]

I don’t think that homosexuality is a mental disorder. I’m rather tired of society dubbing everything a disorder. If something can be overcome through willpower and God’s grace, it’s not a disorder. A disorder is something that one has no control over. It gets old calling sins ‘disorders.’ But, it seems policitcally correct I guess. Still offensive I would imagine! I wouldn’t want someone to tell me I have a mental problem because I’m attracted to someone of the same sex.

It’s a sinful way to live, period. Just like adultery. Just like having sex before marriage. If one believes in God, and follows what the Bible teaches, then one can’t follow God, and follow a sinful lifestyle. I mean, he/she can do that, but either fully loving God, and surrendering to morality will win out, or following one’s desires will win out.

Unfortunately, in our society, we have to come up with things like syndromes, etc…to mask sin. Homosexuality isn’t something to be cured from…but if one is acting upon it, (acting upon SSA) it is sinful. Now, if you don’t believe in God’s laws, then you will not see the sin in it. But, one cannot change the Bible…it is plain as day…to not sleep with people of the same sex. It says as plain as day about stealing, murder, fornication, etc…

So, I don’t judge anyone who is homosexual. I don’t believe that they have a mental disorder. I believe that if someone has same sex attraction and acts upon it, and doesn’t repent, then they are living in mortal sin. Sin isn’t what we think it should be…it’s what God thinks it is.

That’s why we’ll always have these threads that go full circle, because you have people who are gay who claim that God made them this way. I think the better way of saying that is…in a fallen world, we’re born with a propensity towards sin. If a person is homosexual, and acts upon it…then it’s his/her ‘cross’ to bear if you will–we all have them. Mine is different than someone who is gay. But, that is really the more ‘rational’ way to view this.

Gay people deserve the same human rights as us all, and if civil unions is considered a right …it still won’t change the sinful aspect of it. Just my 2 cents.

Very well put. Thanks for your 2 cents.

 

[East_and_West]

Religious rituals is a behavioural pattern.
It occurs in an individual
It causes distress or disability
It is not expected as a part of a normal (secular) culture.

By your conclusion, catholics suffer from mental disorders.

First, you premise that religion causes distress or disability.
This may be true of cults and certain non-traditional religions. However, this is not true of the major religions. For the most part they provide people with a moral compass and contribute to a hopeful view of the world, which is psychologically healthy.
While it is true that some people within major religions become unstable but that is usually because of those individuals’ approach to religion and not the religion itself (such as those who suffer with scrupulocity/OCD).

Second, your premise that religion is not a part of normal (secular) culture. There are two major problems with this premises. The first problem is that you assume that religion is not a normal part of culture. This is so baltantly contrary to the evidence of history, I am surprised that you are willing to post it. Every human society that we have ever observed has participated in religion. It is so common that it would be reasonable to conclude that man is religious by nature. The second problem is the converse. You assume that secularism is “normal”. I think my refutation of your first error is sufficient to refute this error concerning secularlism. In fact, If I were to be true to our observation of human nature, and I were to employ the same syllogism illustrated above:

1. Secularist belief is a behavioral pattern.
2. It occurs in an individual
3. It causes distress or disability (for evidence, remeber that those who report that they are religious, stastically have longer life spans, are healthier, have lower rates of depression, etc.)
4. It is not an expected part of normal culture (remember, religiosity has been the normal state for man for all of known history).
   Conclusion: Secularist suffer from a mental disorder.

 

[royal_archer]

Religious rituals is a behavioural pattern.
It occurs in an individual
It causes distress or disability
It is not expected as a part of a normal (secular) culture.

By your conclusion, catholics suffer from mental disorders.

Can you show a case where someone was disabled by being a good Catholic? How about a situation where being a Catholic made it hard for someone to cope with life?

…The recognition and understanding of mental disorders have changed over time and across cultures. Definitions, assessments, and classifications of mental disorders can vary, but guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals are widely accepted by mental health professionals. Categories of diagnoses in these schemes may include dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, and many other categories. In many cases there is no single accepted or consistent cause of mental disorders, although they are often explained in terms of a diathesis-stress model and biopsychosocial model. …

Makes alot more sense with all the relevant points doesnt it?

The remainder was describing methodology of recognition not the definition itself. As such it was not relevant to my point.

 

[royal_archer]

I don’t think that homosexuality is a mental disorder. I’m rather tired of society dubbing everything a disorder. If something can be overcome through willpower and God’s grace, it’s not a disorder. A disorder is something that one has no control over. It gets old calling sins ‘disorders.’ But, it seems policitcally correct I guess. Still offensive I would imagine! I wouldn’t want someone to tell me I have a mental problem because I’m attracted to someone of the same sex.
…

Your premise seems to be that a disorder is an involuntary condition. I propose that it can be voluntary contition. Alcoholism, laziness, etc. are examples of other disorders of will. Having desires in itself is not the problem acting on the desires which results in negative reprocusions is the problem.

 

[Oakleaf]

Any argument for passing laws would seem to be non-religious. I don’t recall any part of the Gospels where Jesus supports or does not support one law or another. His answer to a question about taxes was basically, give Caesar his coins. One implication of that statement seems to be that those petty coins are neither here nor there concerning God.

 

[fix]

Any argument for passing laws would seem to be non-religious. I don’t recall any part of the Gospels where Jesus supports or does not support one law or another. His answer to a question about taxes was basically, give Caesar his coins. One implication of that statement seems to be that those petty coins are neither here nor there concerning God.

Well, Jesus founded a Church to help us in these matters.

This is what She says:

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

 

[whatevergirl]

Your premise seems to be that a disorder is an involuntary condition. I propose that it can be voluntary contition. Alcoholism, laziness, etc. are examples of other disorders of will. Having desires in itself is not the problem acting on the desires which results in negative reprocusions is the problem.

Oh my, laziness is not a disorder…

If so…it comes and goes with me, when it comes to housecleaning …that’s actually one of the seven deadly sins…it’s not a disorder.

Again, that’s the problem with labeling things disorders…it keeps people from trying to change. If we can lean on the excuse that “I’m disordered, you’re disordered,” it likens it to a sickness…like depression, or something that is not in one’s control, necessarily. There are times when we must label something a sin, not because we say it is, but because God’s Word tells us so…and then, and only then, can someone try to repent.

 

[royal_archer]

Oh my, laziness is not a disorder…

If so…it comes and goes with me, when it comes to housecleaning …that’s actually one of the seven deadly sins…it’s not a disorder.

Again, that’s the problem with labeling things disorders…it keeps people from trying to change. If we can lean on the excuse that “I’m disordered, you’re disordered,” it likens it to a sickness…like depression, or something that is not in one’s control, necessarily. There are times when we must label something a sin, not because we say it is, but because God’s Word tells us so…and then, and only then, can someone try to repent.

We all have a bit of laziness and a desire to avoid work. That is not a problem. The problem is when giving into negative desires has a negative impact on our lives or the lives of those around us.

I may have been unclear in my point. because I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I interpret what you are saying as ‘if it is controllable it itsn’t a disorder’. I cosider the deffinition of disorder to cover controllable and non controllable conditions. With disorder being a mental condition that makes it more difficult for someone to live a normal healthy life. Like you I do not believe these conditions should be considered an excuse.

I believe that the difference comes with the semantics and the impact. I see bennefit in grouping these conditions because I believe there are a collection of unique techniques to deal with these conditions above and beyond the generic avoidance of sin.

 

[Oakleaf]

Well, Jesus founded a Church to help us in these matters.

This is what She says:

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

Hmm, very wise words from the Church.

There is a passage in Goethe, where Faust asks Mephistopheles who he is. Mephistopheles’ answer: “I am the Spirit that denies!” Be careful chasing monsters, because too often we find in the end that the monster is ourselves.

 

[whatevergirl]

We all have a bit of laziness and a desire to avoid work. That is not a problem. The problem is when giving into negative desires has a negative impact on our lives or the lives of those around us.

I may have been unclear in my point. because I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I interpret what you are saying as ‘if it is controllable it itsn’t a disorder’. I cosider the deffinition of disorder to cover controllable and non controllable conditions. With disorder being a mental condition that makes it more difficult for someone to live a normal healthy life. Like you I do not believe these conditions should be considered an excuse.

I believe that the difference comes with the semantics and the impact. I see bennefit in grouping these conditions because I believe there are a collection of unique techniques to deal with these conditions above and beyond the generic avoidance of sin.

**ok, that post deserves a cyber handshake…I agree with you here. (Sorry I rolled in laughter like that)

I liken addictions to things we can control, but wreak havoc in our lives, like smoking, or gambling. These are not disorders, but rather are self inflicted addictions. No one is born with a propensity to smoke or gamble, for example. But, alcoholism, one can be born with a predisposition to that ‘habit,’ and thus, it will be harder to control or conquer.

Definitely a tough subject. I don’t liken homosexuality to a disorder though, although it can be disordered, as it states in the CCC. I think that the CCC handles the subject of homosexuality beautifully by the way, don’t you think? Really, the Church is very compassionate, as always, but very much so, in this area.**

 

[Maso]

The logic fails.

And… when laws are codified on the basis of a falacy… there will be bad laws, and that is detremental.

Consider… If I were to press the law makers for a definition of the term “sexual orientation”… eventually it would come down to homosexuality ( among other things ) is a “sexual orientation”.

Hummm…

But isn’t homosexuality inherantly and by definition in fact a sexual dis-orientation…???

If these lawmakers can explain to me how a sexual orientation can be a sexual dis-orientation… then I will explain to you how one ( 1 ) can equal zero ( 0 ).

                           1 = 0 ...?!
                           Go figure...

This is perfectly sound logic, and you’d have to live in a world of denial not to see it.

 

[eelpis]

Sterile unions should not be given equal rights to fertile ones.