Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[Randy_Carson]

To me, the Catholic belief, if I understand it correctly, is similar to believing that God is too busy or doesn’t care enough about you to listen to you directly so you have to invoke Mary and/or the saints in order to get His attention. I don’t believe we have an aloof Heavenly Father who requires intervention from others in heaven in order to contact Him and communicate with Him through prayer. Our direct link to God is Jesus Christ, not godly Christian brothers and sisters who have gone on to heaven before us. Unlike Christ, they aren’t divine.

Gee, I would reject that, too, if that was what Catholics actually believed. But it isn’t. :nope:

Have you ever prayed for someone? Did you do it without ceasing? Or only for a short time?

Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Were they righteous and effective?

You see, the saints are alive, they are our friends and family, and they are righteous before God. They pray without ceasing and their prayers are effective.

Final point: does your Church have a prayer chain? Think of the saints in heaven as part of the giant Catholic prayer chain that intercedes before the Father. Just as we saints on earth can pray for one another, so the saints in heaven can pray for us, also.

 

[gachristian]

I am one of those ex-Catholics.

Thanks. I will.

Good news! Catholics don’t believe that we are saved by our works, either. :nope:

Go slow. Read some good books about Catholicism, and ignore what you hear from non-Catholics and especially ex-Catholics. Compare real Catholic doctrine with the scriptures. You won’t find any discrepancies.

If you think you find one, let us know here in the forum, and we’ll walk you through it. :yup:

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The problem is that it does not reflect the natural conclusion of my thinking.

It is not what I’m expressing.

For example - Is the IC and the Assumption in any of the Creeds?

Exactly.

The problem is that I don’t believe the necessity of the IC and the Assumption for salvation and I also don’t believe in the exercise of the primacy of the Pope since Dictatus Papae forward. I do love BVM.

And before you go on the straw man of me making myself an authority. Let’s just say that I believe all of what the Church expressed and established before the Great Schism. All I see now is a sea of confusion and differing opinions. God have mercy on me.

 

[SteveVH]

These are some of the same doctrinal obstacles I have, although I respect Catholicism and find many other areas admirable and appealing.

In my view, praying to Mary and the saints can detract from our relationship with God and I doubt I could ever do that because (in my view) it can lead to having multiple go-betweens between God and man instead of the one ordained intermediary, Jesus Christ. It has led to placing too much emphasis on Mary and the saints in some circles and not enough on Christ, who should be the primary focus of worship of all Christians.

Tommy, does spending time with your family detract from your relationship with God?

Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Have you ever prayed for anyone else? Of course you have, that seems to be the Christian thing to do, right? You are asking someone else to intercede for you or you are interceding for someone else. Now, why in the world do we do that?

There is no difference in praying to the saints for their intercession. We do not believe we are separated by death from those who are in heaven but are united as the one Body of Christ. If Jesus’ mother lived down the block from you would you ask her to pray for you in a time of need? Well, she is only a prayer away.

To me, the Catholic belief, if I understand it correctly, is similar to believing that God is too busy or doesn’t care enough about you to listen to you directly so you have to invoke Mary and/or the saints in order to get His attention.

LOL! Really? Do you really believe this? Have you ever, even one time, seen anything in Catholic literature that would come close to implying this?

No, Tommy. This isn’t even close. It is the doctrine of the “communion of saints” which you say you believe if you recite any of the creeds. I think I explained above. Those in heaven are part of our family and we are not separated by death. If our prayers for each other on earth have any effect, then even more the prayers of those in heaven who see God “face to face”.

I don’t believe we have an aloof Heavenly Father who requires intervention from others in heaven in order to contact Him and communicate with Him through prayer. Our direct link to God is Jesus Christ, not godly Christian brothers and sisters who have gone on to heaven before us. Unlike Christ, they aren’t divine.

Neither is your pastor, so don’t you dare ask for his prayers either.

I also struggle with the Catholic requirement to go to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins from God. I believe we can boldly approach the throne of grace without the need of a priest (Hebrews 4:16) , although I am not opposed to going to a priest for counseling and spiritual guidance and other roles they perform for the Church and the faithful.

I can’t think of any other major objections to Catholicism but I believe these are enough to keep me from becoming Catholic, although I remain respectful and a friend to Catholics.

Well, that is what happens when one has grown in a faith tradition that has strayed so far from the apostolic faith. Confession to a priest has always been practiced in both the Catholic and Orthodox faiths. Notice, they are the only faith traditions that have claim to apostolic succession. Does that not tell you something?

Peace.

Steve

 

[CrossofChrist]

Protestants will perennially view the plausible as only plausible.

I take that back (partially)…Protestants might view something as pious belief, but ultimately unproven. Maybe it’d be beneficial for an individual, but certainly nothing that can be defined for everybody.

But fortunately we have the Catholic Church…where we can trust more than our own personal interpretation.

 

[friardchips]

Gee, I would reject that, too, if that was what Catholics actually believed. But it isn’t. :nope:

Have you ever prayed for someone? Did you do it without ceasing? Or only for a short time?

Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Were they righteous and effective?

You see, the saints are alive, they are our friends and family, and they are righteous before God. They pray without ceasing and their prayers are effective.

Final point: does your Church have a prayer chain? Think of the saints in heaven as part of the giant Catholic prayer chain that intercedes before the Father. Just as we saints on earth can pray for one another, so the saints in heaven can pray for us, also.

Yes. Also, to Tommy999…Mary having been by the side of Jesus all the way through in the most intimate parts of His life, and having been given to us from the Cross by Him, is our Mother too, as well as intercessor for us and Queen of Saints. There is a chain and Mary is inseparable from Jesus in Heaven as on earth, more so. Remember the ‘Our Father’: ‘…on earth as it is in Heaven’. Jesus does not refuse Mary’s pleas for her adopted children (Wedding at Cana). To pray the Rosary for example, is to share in the intimate relationship between the Son and Mother, for ‘Mary pondered all these things in her heart’, and her heart is a treasure trove of holy memory which her Immaculate Heart shares with us graciously and generously during the Holy Mysteries; and Mary’s role as our tender Mother, coming into fruition at the point of Jesus speaking to His Mother and the Beloved Disciple from the Cross, was made so. As for the Sacrament of Confession: Jesus said that whatever was bound on earth would be bound in Heaven and whatever was loosed…etc…He was talking about His Church, its teaching, and Confession.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The problem is that I don’t believe the necessity of the IC and the Assumption for salvation and I also don’t believe in the exercise of the primacy of the Pope since Dictatus Papae forward. I do love BVM.

Ah, so in true cafeteria-style, you are picking and choosing what you will and won’t accept.

IOW, you don’t accept the Catechism cover to cover. I understand now.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Again, you misunderstand. If Honorius **privately **held a false doctrine, so what?

But the facts are that Honorius did not teach anything in this matter in a formal manner that suggests he was attempting to bind all Christians to that teaching. In fact, the opposite is true for he among his writings on the matter, we find:

(a) “We must not wrest what they say into Church dogmas”;
(b) “We must not define either one or two operations”;
(c) “We leave the matter to grammarians”;
(d) “We must not, defining, pronounce one or two operations.”

Somehow, despite these clear statements that Honorius had no intention of making a binding decision, some controversialists insist that Honorius was attempting to make a formal, binding pronouncement and, because the matter in questions proved to be heretical, that Honorius’ private opinions disprove papal infallibility.

Thus, infallibility is not disproven by Honorius.

He taught heresy when Sergius asked for his teaching. And it wasn’t in the form of “Well I think this”. It was using the Royal we and everything, “We teach this”. The same way that popes presume to teach today.

For that he was condemned by an Ecumenical Council and subsequent popes for hundreds of years.

Hundreds of years of condemnation and an anathema by an Ecumenical Council for just holding privately to heresy huh? I wonder if you actually want me to buy into that.

He couldn’t have been teaching infallibly as defined by VI because that doctrine didn’t exist yet. In fact Catholic Apologists can hardly come to an agreement on how many infallible statements have been made ever.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

No one has taught that. Ever.

You set-up strawmen just to set them ablaze. Unfortunately, that is the only light by which you see.

Actually popes and saints have taught that for hundreds of years. For example:

“Only the Roman Pontiff is rightly called universal; the Pope can be judged by no one; no one can be regarded as a catholic who does not agree with the Roman church; the Roman Church has never erred and never will err till the end of time; the Roman Church was founded by Christ alone; the Pope alone can depose and restore bishops; he alone can make new laws, set up new bishoprics, and divide old ones; he alone can translate bishops to another see; he alone can call general councils and authorize canon law; he alone can revise his own judgements; his sentence cannot be repealed by anyone and he alone can review the judgements of all; he alone can use the imperial insignia; he can depose emperors; he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to impious rulers; the Pope is the only man to whom all princes bend the knee; all princes should kiss his feet; his legates, even those in inferior orders, have precedence over all bishops; an appeal to the papal court inhibits judgement by all inferior courts; a duly ordained pope is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter.”

Pope Gregory VII (Hildebrand), Dictatus Papae (decreed in 1074 and reiterated at the 1st Latern Council, Latin text in Karl Hofmann, Der Dictatus Papae Gregors VII (Paderborn [Germany]: Ferdinand Schöningh, 1933), p. 11.

Polycarp and Irenaeus must have never heard that the “pope alone can revise his own judgements”. That’s because Pope Gregory was teaching pure innovation and decidedly non-apostolic doctrine.

 

[Peter_J]

I appreciate the response. I cannot answer that question fully although I am leaning toward “no.”

My husband was also raised Catholic and recently started going to Mass again after 30+. He enjoys the reverence of the Mass but also enjoys the stress of a relationship with our Savior, Jesus that we have seen in some Protestant churches. I can understand and appreciate what he sees in the Mass. And I can agree that the Catholic church has been strong in many of the issues that we have seen in history (abortion, homosexuality, etc.)

At the same time, I have had people tell me that we will become a “house divided” which I disagree with. We are both Christian. I still go to a protestant church, and he is going to a Catholic church.

Being on both sides I have heard the condemnation in both Catholic and nonCatholic circles of each other. What I read from scripture is that salvation is found through faith in Jesus and only Jesus. Our works do not save us, but works demonstrates our faith.

And again, I am not trying to be argumentative. I found this forum in searching for ways to support my husband’s decision. Although issues such as Catholic doctrine of Mary and purgatory are among the main disagreements I have in Catholic doctrine.

Definitely. Quite frankly, I think too often we (on both sides I mean) act as though the other side in only good for providing potential converts to our own side – which does a terrible injustice to Christian brotherhood/sisterhood.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

“Obeyed without question” ?

Is this commanded, from the Church, of the Bishops? Has the Church rejected the council of the bishops? That seems very misunderstood.

That’s what Pope Gregory VII was teaching in 1074. Perhaps he was simply teaching falsely.

He even went farther than to just obey. He also demanded all other princes and bishops to kiss his crusty foot too.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ah, so in true cafeteria-style, you are picking and choosing what you will and won’t accept.

IOW, you don’t accept the Catechism cover to cover. I understand now.

That’s right Randy. You win the argument. That’s all its about right? You have victory. Congratulations.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Read Dictatus Papae.

He did demand that all princes kiss his foot.

I am not making it up, I wish I was.

 

[Randy_Carson]

He taught heresy when Sergius asked for his teaching. And it wasn’t in the form of “Well I think this”. It was using the Royal we and everything, “We teach this”. The same way that popes presume to teach today.

For that he was condemned by an Ecumenical Council and subsequent popes for hundreds of years.

Hundreds of years of condemnation and an anathema by an Ecumenical Council for just holding privately to heresy huh? I wonder if you actually want me to buy into that.

He couldn’t have been teaching infallibly as defined by VI because that doctrine didn’t exist yet. In fact Catholic Apologists can hardly come to an agreement on how many infallible statements have been made ever.

I spent weeks arguing about this with a bunch of Orthodox in the Eastern Catholicism forum. I’m not going through it again. Just go read the threads if you’re interested. You’ll love them…all the Orthodox took your position. So, why aren’t you Orthodox? At least you’d have valid sacraments…

Honorius did not formally teach error, and infallibility has not been disproven by any condemnation of his failure to stop others from doing so.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s right Randy. You win the argument. That’s all its about right? You have victory. Congratulations.

Oh. That was easy. :extrahappy:

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Oh. That was easy. :extrahappy:

:tiphat:

 

[MarianCatholic]

Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

Thanks.

Papal supremacy and infallibility is two of the top tens i have…
I guess I could bring up other “issues” as well, but the Roman understanding of the Papacy is problematic.

 

[Peter_J]

That’s right Randy. You win the argument. That’s all its about right? You have victory. Congratulations.

Dude, youre making me look bad: I was just yesterday (jokingly) criticizing protestant posters for their obsession with Randy.

 

[benjohnson]

Papal supremacy and infallibility is two of the top tens i have…

I agree with the ‘problematic’, but speaking for myself from the Lutherans side of the riverbank - all churches have their problems and would trading one set of problems for another should be done with much prayer, council, and diplomacy.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Dude, youre making me look bad: I was just yesterday (jokingly) criticizing protestant posters for their obsession with Randy.

I’m cold turkeing him, lol.