Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Indeed. It’s not about finding a problem free denomination. It’s about finding a denomination whose problems you can abide.
Don’t forget that some of us do not believe in “denominationalism”.

As I’ve pointed out before, I never left Orthodoxy for Catholicism, but I never left Catholicism for Orthodoxy either. (I’m a Cradle Catholic.)
If the RC denomiantion conformed to my personal tastes and I went ahead and joined it, would that be creating a god in my own image?
You mean if you became RC for that reason?
 
I think you should find the Church that Christ established, join it, and then conform your views to Christ’s.

No other Church, save for the CC or the Orthodox, can trace its origins to Christ and HIs Apostles.

Right now, you’re just finding a church which conforms to your own personal views.
What would you suggest I do if I research and prayed and came to the conclusion that Christ did not establish the RC or the EO denominations?

Should I abandon my conscience and shut up and join up anyway, or should I obey my conscience in the matter?
 
This was not the point of the original question.
right you said she is not inclined to sin and that leaving Him behind in Jerusalem was not sin/mistake cause she was “worried about her son” and finally found Him. So worrying is not a sin ( as is not leaving Him behind) ?
Go on then
You have seen it and I am sure explained it accordingly. Just google “they thought Him beside Himself” and find biblehub with all the differing translations. Then read on and Mary comes into the picture.
Well, you can ignore the Bible all the way through if you want. And thorough exegesis.
That is an old tactic to label me incorrect without really correcting me, that is, show me what I am am missing of what took place at Calvary with Mary.
Incorrect. There are plenty of sources out there for you to correct your what you know.
Look, enough cat and mouse. The CC finally made the Assumption a dogma of faith in 1950. To not believe it now is an authoritatively forewarned departure from the one true faith. Yes, she( Church/Pope) put forth many “proofs” from Tradition and some Scripture foreshadowing, dating back centuries. In 1950 most bishops were for the dogma but not all. So a generation or two ago I would be in some Catholic company, some.
 
^These are two of mine as well.

I can reconcile basically everything about Catholicism with what I am increasingly identifying as my Orthodox faith. I detest how watered-down the Novus Ordo is, but I still feel that it yields a legit Eucharist. A lot of the devotions in the Latin tradition I strike me as odd, but I can make sense of them and roll with them, perhaps with the help of a good explanation or two.

But as for Papal Infallibility, it seems murky at best as to when it’s actually been applied. My understanding of it is, “The Pope’s speaking infallibly when he talks all official-like and says something in line with the Tradition of the Church.” But with all the extra criteria that get added in, a lot of people say that the Pope has only spoken twice in recorded history, whereas others make up a way more massive list. The lack of agreement among Catholics as to when the Pope is infallibly speaking is pretty damning in my view.

And Papal Supremacy and Papal Universal Jurisdiction seem in my eyes to be completely against what everyone knows to be the history of the Church. The way Vatican 1 words those two things is impossible to get around. I understand that subsequent Popes have explained that their supremacy and universal jurisdiction are in terms of love, encouragement, advisement and checking in on how things are going, but that is not at all what I see Vatican 1 saying.

The idea that a Pope can’t be contradicted or overruled by an Ecumenical Council flies in the face of history, so I cannot possibly accept that. We’ve seen Popes being reviewed by Ecumenical Councils, and an Ecumenical Council has both condemned a Pope and forced another one to do an about-face on his position (I’m thinking Pope Vigilius and the Three Chapters controversy). And we also see Pope Victor changing his mind about excommunicating the Quartodecimians after a bunch of people reprimanded him for his actions. And let’s not forget Pope Damasus’ track record in going against St. Meletius of Antioch, backing his opponents and breaking off communion with the rest of Antioch. Even though the Pope had clearly shown he didn’t like Meletius, St. Meletius still presided over the First Council of Constantinople.

So no, I see neither evidence nor support for the ideas of Papal Supremacy or Papal Universal Jurisdiction–at least not how Vatican 1 explains them. If only what later Popes say on the matter was the dogmatic definition of these, and not the decrees of Vatican 1. If it wasn’t for the overly monarchical sense I get from these two dogmas, I might still be Catholic today. As it is now, everything’s in flux about whether or not I find my way back into communion with the Pope.
Hi Shiranui117. I think the fact that you’re an ex-Catholic (not to be confused with a “never-been-Catholic”) may be a little bit of a sore point for us Catholics (if you’ll forgive my bluntness).

But having said that, let me add that your approach seems quite reasonable, and I respect that very much.

🙂
 
What would you suggest I do if I research and prayed and came to the conclusion that Christ did not establish the RC or the EO denominations?

Should I abandon my conscience and shut up and join up anyway, or should I obey my conscience in the matter?
What would your answer be to a Muslim who is researching Christianity and gives you a similar answer: I have come to the conclusion that Christ did not establish Christianity.

What would you tell him, as an evangelist and apologist for Christianity?
 
Hi Shiranui117. I think the fact that you’re an ex-Catholic (not to be confused with a “never-been-Catholic”) may be a little bit of a sore point for us Catholics (if you’ll forgive my bluntness).

But having said that, let me add that your approach seems quite reasonable, and I respect that very much.

🙂
Thanks for the forewarning. I prefer to be honest with my path, and TBH, I haven’t shut the door to the Catholic Church just yet, and I want to take plenty of time to discern between the two Churches. The very fact that I’m willing to have Catholics give me (name removed by moderator)ut and offer perspectives I haven’t yet encountered should make this clear. 😃
 
What would you suggest I do if I research and prayed and came to the conclusion that Christ did not establish the RC or the EO denominations?

Should I abandon my conscience and shut up and join up anyway, or should I obey my conscience in the matter?
Seems strange to me that you’d even ask.

If it’s true that we don’t seek to proselytize (and it is) then it is all the more true to say that we don’t want someone to join who does not even believe what we believe.
 
Thanks for the forewarning. I prefer to be honest with my path, and TBH, I haven’t shut the door to the Catholic Church just yet, and I want to take plenty of time to discern between the two Churches. The very fact that I’m willing to have Catholics give me (name removed by moderator)ut and offer perspectives I haven’t yet encountered should make this clear. 😃
Touche. 🙂
 
What would your answer be to a Muslim who is researching Christianity and gives you a similar answer: I have come to the conclusion that Christ did not establish Christianity.

What would you tell him, as an evangelist and apologist for Christianity?
Can’t you simply answer my question? It’s not like a trick question or something.
 
Then you hold Dictatus Papae to be false teaching?

Whether or not old Greg authored it, did medieval popes for centuries agree with the sentiments contained in it? Or did they know it was false teaching?
I hold that it was not an infallible teaching.

Thus, it is not an issue.

🙂
 
Seems strange to me that you’d even ask.

If it’s true that we don’t seek to proselytize (and it is) then it is all the more true to say that we don’t want someone to join who does not even believe what we believe.
Indeed. The same is true for all denominations.

Then why is that simply joining a denomination that “confirms to their beliefs”?

If I believe that the RCC denomination is the true one then I join it. If I believe some other denomination is the true one then I join that.

We are all in the same boat.
 
I have valid sacraments now.
:o
Any heretical papal teaching magically doesn’t fall under the criteria for infallibility. And Catholic apologists cannot even seem to know exactly which papal statements are infallible and which are not. All I have heard is estimations. It’s a nebulous and bewildering doctrine IMO on purpose. Infallible teaching is whatever it needs to be at the moment.
So, you have nothing.

Somewhere, a fat lady is warming up…😉
 
:o

So, you have nothing.

Somewhere, a fat lady is warming up…😉
I have your guy teaching heresy and getting condemned by an anathema from an Ecumenical Council and hundreds of years of popes. And this IIRC was the case brought up by the more critical bishops present at VI. They must not have been adequately catechized.
 
How hard do I need to pray to come to the same conclusion as you?
I’d just like to know why you are here at all. You seem to have nothing but disdain for the Catholic Church. What is your purpose in going through so much apparent aggravation?
 
I have your guy teaching heresy and getting condemned by an anathema from an Ecumenical Council and hundreds of years of popes. And this IIRC was the case brought up by the more critical bishops present at VI. They must not have been adequately catechized.
And yet, it does nothing to the doctrine of infallibility…which you desperately want it to disprove.

This seems to escape your understanding.
 
Can’t you simply answer my question? It’s not like a trick question or something.
Assuming you know how to be a good evangelist and apologist for Christianity (which I don’t doubt), I would answer with the same answer you would give to a Muslim who is researching Christianity, and concludes from his prayer and research that Christianity is false…

What would you tell this Muslim, HH?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top