Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[guanophore]

Stupid question how do you do that ? Do u type on forum page or do u go to "word " or other processor then paste ? My cursor will not allow it. I hate it also. Have almost asked before but never did. Do not know what half the stuff does at top tool bar.

I ususally write directly on the forum but when I am having connectivity issues I write in notepad. Wordpad works also, then you can cut and past the whole thing into the reply. Both of these programs are in the Windows Accessories. Wordpad has more functionality with text. Notepad is created to edit MS-DOS files, so it has no codes and no frills just ANSI text.

You should also check your personal settings and see if you are in html mode, so you will have more editing options on your toolbar.

 

[guanophore]

The good thief was not sitting comfortably in his armchair thinking it might be nice to become a follower of Christ, and offering up his annoyance that his little 2 year old child had left a toy in the living room as his “crucifixion with Christ.”

He was actually, literally, and physically being crucified with Christ.

I think he did sufficient penance. I also think it is safe to say that he went to Paradise that same day, and from thence to Heaven, when Christ opened the Gates at His Resurrection on the Third Day.

We also do not know if he may have been washed in the Word of Christ by listening to His preaching, or perhaps even baptized and gone astray.

 

[Peter_J]

If you read on :“whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,” Titus 3:7 . Washing, renewing, pouring out are attributes of the Holy Spirit, **irregardless of any rites. **.

So you admit it!

 

[Porknpie]

Originally Posted by Cube2
Even Apostle Paul who preached more than the other apostles mentions of a brother to Jesus.

We have Paul’s letters but that in no way means that he preached more than any other apostle. John lived the longest, 30+ years longer than Paul, so it’s likely (almost certain I would argue) that he preached more than Paul (John also started earlier than Paul). Then there’s Luke … and we have more of his words in the bible than we do of Paul’s.

Also, quite interesting is this Jesus having brothers. Tradition has it that he may have had step-brothers from Joseph’s first marriage. And none of the major reformers believed Jesus had brothers through Mary. Luther even said Jesus giving Mary to John on the cross was proof enough for him that this was so, for as a Jew, Jesus would have given Mary to his brother(s) if he had one. Not doing so would have broken custom and made him a horrible Jew.

This Mary having children other than Jesus is just ga-ga non-sense, a man-made tradition based on Sola Scripture and departure from the apostolic faith.

PnP

 

[Randy_Carson]

Great job Randy!

This very clearly demonstrates that justification happens at certain specific points in time, as well as over a lifetime of walking with God.

:tiphat:

 

[Peter_J]

And here I was expecting a 'get back on topic" post from you!

Got a guilty conscience?

 

[benhur]

I’m saying initial justification is not the result of a work we do, but on the initiative of God. The Catechism’s section on justification is probably worth a read: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM

OK.Initial as in one time ? Don’t see in catechism where justification is many times. It says sanctification is made possible from justification.

We can increase in our sanctification, but it’s entirely the grace of God; we cooperate.

Positionally no, for you are either in Christ or not, can not “increase” that . Experientially yes, which I think you are talking about.

How is it not? Being made right with God (justification) is the same as being made holy (sanctification)

Yes, I suppose as soon as one is justified, he is by that very action also set apart form those not justified. I would go no further however, for fear of making it seem that we are justified by us doing anything holy except believe by His regenerational grace. Otherwise you suggest we can increase in justification, and every good work done in righteousness further justifies us.
As far as walking out this new life, that is what most mean by sanctification , as in your sentence just before this one above. Another words to some *justification* is like the psalmist said, "forgive my sins Lord, make me clean as hysop". and *sanctification* might be what David then states, "create in me a new spirit".

 

[benhur]

Oh I agree whole heartedly. It is for God to determine which acts of ours leave us “justified” or in “right relationship” with him. Doing the good works that He has ordained for us does work to keep us “justified” (in a state of grace) and also to sanctify us.

Sorry but totally goes against what Paul clearly states , “By works of righteousness we are NOT justified”. Your works based justification is the other extreme of mental assent justification that Paul and James tried to correct in early church. It is over correction. Having begun in the spirit, trusting in His work, we now rest in our good works, which of course are by His grace also ?

9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do* good works*, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Eph. 2:10

Peter is clear that “making every effort” does serve to increase our movement toward salvation.

Not toward salvation but toward that which we were called for, to do our x,y, and z. " To obtain that which i was called for,…finish the course". Otherwise you say not by works then by works. In another verse he clarifies works as including righteous ones done by his grace. The verse you quote does not say the good works justify us

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

Again carnal , like the Corinthians but still justified, like the Corinthians.

I

 

[Peter_J]

Sorry but totally goes against what Paul clearly states , “By works of righteousness we are NOT justified”. Your works based justification is the other extreme of mental assent justification that Paul and James tried to correct in early church. It is over correction. Having begun in the spirit, trusting in His work, we now rest in our good works, which of course are by His grace also ?

Not toward salvation but toward that which we were called for, to do our x,y, and z. " To obtain that which i was called for,…finish the course". Otherwise you say not by works then by works. In another verse he clarifies works as including righteous ones done by his grace. The verse you quote does not say the good works justify us
Again carnal , like the Corinthians but still justified, like the Corinthians.

I think you have an exaggerated idea of how far apart we are. You should read the JDDJ (Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification).

 

[Seraphim73]

I know this sounds harsh and I apologize but it seems to me that satan would be pretty pleased that so many Christians argue that good works aren’t necessary. Seems like just the kind of deception he’d love.

 

[andrewstx]

I know this sounds harsh and I apologize but it seems to me that satan would be pretty pleased that so many Christians argue that good works aren’t necessary. Seems like just the kind of deception he’d love.

I agree, and I think it goes back to the false faith vs works dichotomy held by many but not all Protestants.

It seems to me that many of them don’t realize that the mystery/sacrament of Baptism is a work, but a work of God. Not of humans.

 

[friardchips]

A valid point. Things were stickier during the medieval ages and the Renaissance, but the kinks seem to have worked themselves out for the most part.

Right. I was basically trying to understand what the role of the Pope is, using the role of Christ as a model, and toning His role down to meet a merely human level as necessary.

Indeed. Hence the need for the Pope to let the regional synod appoint a locum tenens.

I would hope it’s the latter, especially among the Pope’s brother bishops–would it make sense for a younger brother to call their elder brother their father? I don’t think so. Among the laity, I can totally understand the Pope being viewed as the “Holy Father”.

Peace and God bless!

God bless.

 

[friardchips]

Thank you for your heart felt response. I never considered Mary to have sinned when they left Jerusalem without Jesus. I kind of just felt like she was human, like one of us, like perhaps my loving mother and others.
It is just Holy Scripture. I believe your bible (on biblehub) says the same thing.
biblehub.com/mark/3-21.htm It is not directly implied that Mary and brethren in vs 31 were the" friends" or with friends of vs 21 but many think they are one in the same. Again, don’t look at this as "sin’’ but again, a human mother still pondering the things of the Lord, and overwhelmed by the growing ministry, for Jesus “could not so much as eat bread”- (that is the last thing a mother wants to hear, like come home, take it easy for a spell , rest , eat ).

This is a reasonable post. She was human but blessed in a particular way. Certainly a pondered post by yourself, it seems. I don’t think I have to try and debate this with you as you are seemingly on a journey of discovery. I like the part underlined particularly.

Not sure what you mean by research, save read the scriptures, which I think i have concerning Mary. I have also read some that indirectly infer to her according to CC teachers. I have also been on a very personal journey with this, and like any truthful insight, it is to the heart. We differ, but out of respect for our sentiment, not worth quibbling over wrongly.

Been a while since I’ve visited this thread. Going back to it I would basically just say to get a solid, trusted translation for a Roman Catholic Bible. Begin with the footnotes and appendixes in there and build from that point. I can’t remember what we were saying now but either way don’t worry over loads of translations but just have one. Also, prayer is good when pondering over questions, and listen to priests in sermons.

Well, though we both have reasoning, not a problem of getting “my head around it”, and I also consider my reasoning and and heart felt convictions to be a gift of God . So amen to the source of all enlightenment as you rightly suggest.
Sorry, I just mentioned a bit of the history of the dogma I did ask, but I can only assume you had renderings similar to other Catholics on the same text “others” read differently, but thank you. Most good reasoning on this, even Catholic reasoning, are said to be founded and felt from Scripture today.

Yes, okay, consolation is nice, and there is no reason why you can’t understand something in the long run, which is where reason comes in, but this is more about faith not feelings. We have to pray for grace (which can bring knowledge) which helps mystical knowledge (extra grace). Just keep going - keep asking questions, keep ‘wearing faith’ and ‘love’ as your armour wherever you are, keep praying and receive the Sacraments (I can’t remember if you are a Catholic, sorry?), but wear love and pray, armour yourself in the love of Christ, and you’ll progress in understanding, no doubt. As St. Paul said at the end of the famous Corinthians Passage:

'In short, there are three that last: faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love."

God bless.



To add: great to hear you have a relationship with Mary, I don’t want to involve myself in that, because it is between you and your Holy Mother, so, put simply, Ave Maria!

 

[guanophore]

Sorry but totally goes against what Paul clearly states , “By works of righteousness we are NOT justified”. Your works based justification is the other extreme of mental assent justification that Paul and James tried to correct in early church. It is over correction. Having begun in the spirit, trusting in His work, we now rest in our good works, which of course are by His grace also ?

It seems clear you have misunderstood my point. James is clear that we are justified by our works, but only because such works emanate from saving faith - they are the works of righteousness produced in and through us by the Holy Spirit.

Justfication is not “works based”. We are justified by grace, through faith.

We are justified FOR works. The are not separated from justification, though they do not form the basis of it.

Not toward salvation but toward that which we were called for, to do our x,y, and z. " To obtain that which i was called for,…finish the course".

I think we are just having a semantics problem. The Apostles taught that “salvation” is comprised of justification, sanctification, and glorification. Modern Protestants have confused “salvation” with the initial state of justification, separating the other aspects from the process. Sanctification is part of salvation.

The grace that saves us is not accessed by faith + works, but faith THAT works. It is a quality of faith.

Otherwise you say not by works then by works. In another verse he clarifies works as including righteous ones done by his grace. The verse you quote does not say the good works justify us

Well, this is probably beyond the scope of this thread, ,but Scripture and the Holy Tradition are quite clear that works of righteousness do perfect us in our faith, as James states. They sanctify us, and confirm our calling and election.

Again carnal , like the Corinthians but still justified, like the Corinthians.

Now you are sounding like an OSAS proponent. One cannot be both “in Christ” and be carnal. If one rejects the Holy Spirit after the bath of regeneration, one’s last State is worse tham their first.

 

[friardchips]

**

The** Justifications of Abraham

 

[benhur]

I know this sounds harsh and I apologize but it seems to me that satan would be pretty pleased that so many Christians argue that good works aren’t necessary. Seems like just the kind of deception he’d love.

What is sad is that you have missed the point and thus fail with your criticism. Who says good works are not necessary, and to what end are they ? Satan is happy when we rest on our good works.
Some have said that the entrance to the Pearly Gates has trick floor. As soon as you use the word "I’ in answering St. Peter why he should let you in, the floor opens up and you go “down” .

 

[benhur]

I agree, and I think it goes back to the false faith vs works dichotomy held by many but not all Protestants.

It seems to me that many of them don’t realize that the mystery/sacrament of Baptism is a work, but a work of God. Not of humans.

Jesus says this is the work of God, belief in the One whom He sent. He regenerates, births in the spirit. This is His work as you say. Yes, many tie it to a rite (baptism/confirmation). Regardless, do you deny it is a work of righteousness ? Humans do not participate in this rite ? Is this the beginning of many "mysterious " things we have to do to be justified, all the way thru to our death ?

 

[benhur]

This is a reasonable post. She was human but blessed in a particular way. Certainly a pondered post by yourself, it seems. I don’t think I have to try and debate this with you as you are seemingly on a journey of discovery. I like the part underlined particularly.

Been a while since I’ve visited this thread. Going back to it I would basically just say to get a solid, trusted translation for a Roman Catholic Bible. Begin with the footnotes and appendixes in there and build from that point. I can’t remember what we were saying now but either way don’t worry over loads of translations but just have one. Also, prayer is good when pondering over questions, and listen to priests in sermons.

Yes, okay, consolation is nice, and there is no reason why you can’t understand something in the long run, which is where reason comes in, but this is more about faith not feelings. We have to pray for grace (which can bring knowledge) which helps mystical knowledge (extra grace). Just keep going - keep asking questions, keep ‘wearing faith’ and ‘love’ as your armour wherever you are, keep praying and receive the Sacraments (I can’t remember if you are a Catholic, sorry?), but wear love and pray, armour yourself in the love of Christ, and you’ll progress in understanding, no doubt. As St. Paul said at the end of the famous Corinthians Passage:

'In short, there are three that last: faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love."

God bless.



To add: great to hear you have a relationship with Mary, I don’t want to involve myself in that, because it is between you and your Holy Mother, so, put simply, Ave Maria!

Thank you . Agree it is faith that produces reason and obtains truth, and truth impacts more than the mind but the heart, hence may produce “feelings”. And my main point is that faith all starts by hearing, and that by the Word of God, and not being Catholic, would primarily mean Holy Scripture today, or those expounding upon it.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus says this is the work of God, belief in the One whom He sent. He regenerates, births in the spirit. This is His work as you say. Yes, many tie it to a rite (baptism/confirmation). Regardless, do you deny it is a work of righteousness ? Humans do not participate in this rite ? Is this the beginning of many "mysterious " things we have to do to be justified, all the way thru to our death ?

Yes, the Work of God - to believe in Him, is ergos hagios a holy work or a work of righteousness. It is motivated by the HS and it is He who is at work in us to will and to do God’s pleasure.

Yes, the Apostles taught that it is connected and manifested in baptism, as well as other sacramental rites. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. But these works of righteousness are not the basis of our salvation, which is based in grace, accessed through faith.

Neither are they separated from it, for saving faith is faith that works, or it is a dead faith.

The Holy Mysteries do keep us in the state of grace that we entered at baptism, but it is not the works that save, it is the grace in which we remain.

If I told you there was salvation to be found by standing under a certain waterfall, would you not go stand under it? This is how we participate in the graces that are poured out. We are responsible for standing in the waterfall, and the sacraments help us do that. When we are in the waterfall, we are more able to walk by the Spirit, and not the flesh.

 

[benhur]

The grace that saves us is not accessed by faith + works, but faith THAT works. It is a quality of faith.

How about a third option , faith is the work, faith regenerates. Any work beyond that is a righteous work, not a justifying work.

Well, this is probably beyond the scope of this thread, ,but Scripture and the Holy Tradition are quite clear that works of righteousness do perfect us in our faith, as James states. They sanctify us, and confirm our calling and election.

Very good, just that some call it justification or the “chain” of justifications.

Now you are sounding like an OSAS proponent. One cannot be both “in Christ” and be carnal. If one rejects the Holy Spirit after the bath of regeneration, one’s last State is worse tham their first.

Have to read Cor. but I thought those were Paul’s sentiments.The Corinhtians were “Christian”, justified but ‘‘carnal’’ as in babes in Christ , not being spiritually mature, still acting in the flesh (nothing to do with rejecting the Holy Spirit and His salvation).