Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[guanophore]

How about a third option , faith is the work, faith regenerates. Any work beyond that is a righteous work, not a justifying work.

Yes, it can work if you disregard some scripture, and ignore the Sacred Tradition. One of the main ones that one must set aside (as Luther did) is James, who clearly states that one is justified by works.

It is also easier to do this if one conceives of justification as something that happens once in time, for all time. This is quite an innovation that occurred at the Reformation. Prior to that time, the whole church understood that one could go in and out of a state of grace (right relation ship with God- justified).

But I agree with you, there is no “work”, including faith, that can justify. Justification can only occur by grace. Faith is the faculty by which we access saving grace.

Have to read Cor. but I thought those were Paul’s sentiments.The Corinhtians were “Christian”, justified but ‘‘carnal’’ as in babes in Christ , not being spiritually mature, still acting in the flesh (nothing to do with rejecting the Holy Spirit and His salvation).

Yes, and Paul is clear that walking in the flesh (living a carnal life) will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven, so though they were justified in baptism, they are in danger of being parted from that saving grace.

 

[friardchips]

Yes, and Paul is clear that walking in the flesh (living a carnal life) will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven, so though they were justified in baptism, they are in danger of being parted from that saving grace.

I think, respectfully to you, that being parted fully from grace is not something that happens for the most part, even when having committed mortal sin. Sometimes God might hide His face, and sometimes we turn away from Him, but if He were to take His grace away (a full parting) then there would be no comeback.

I was thinking the other day of an analogy - the Jetstream. Grace is a bit like that jet stream. Once baptised we enter nearer to it, we are elevated from ground-zero. Now whether in the form of an awakening or for those who maintained going to Church in their lives, these people have entered into the momentum of the jet stream of grace itself. Now when we turn away we can fall out of the jet stream, but that does not mean that the jet-stream is not still there and that we fall completely on the ground, by the very fact we are baptised. It does not even mean that when we have sinned mortally God is not still helping us. The saving grace is still there but we have dropped ourselves out of recognising it is there, and so we, hopefully temporarily, don’t really want to get back into it again. Yet, the angels nudge as the Holy Spirit offers opportunities for change, and waits patiently until we go: “okay, yes, let’s go again.” The thing is, is that although we have taken ourselves from that grace, God can put us back there again, in the same place we were. The difference being that the jet-stream will take us, if we can avoid sin, further - we progress onto new places of the journey God wishes to take us on - but when we sin, mortally, we drop out of the main momentum and so don’t get taken along quite as quickly, because God has to make us light enough to enter the main jet-stream again.

Sin weighs us down, a gravitational pull back towards earth, and so does a kind of heady religion. In order to remain grateful to God in the jet-stream of grace we have to be light of heart, “simple and straight-forward” (St. Therese said), and really leave self back below. But the point is that even if we have dropped many times out of the jet-stream, it will have taken us along some way in short spurts, so we can look back and say: “things are different somehow!”. Our horizons and perspective may be very different from the beginning of our journey, and this is because of where the analogy ends: where grace and the jet-stream differ. This difference is because grace works within us, even through the process of forgiveness after sin, as this forgiveness changes the expressions and movements of the heart, and we grow in it and are sensitised, thanks be, to God’s mercy.

The great thing about being able to rely on God to keep us light is because then we will reach where He wants us to be, quicker, and we will become adept at trusting in God’s power to keep us light and maintain that focus of looking at Him with mind and heart aligned. It is important to keep looking at God so that His jet stream of grace carries us along to where we need to be; God’s way is always the scenic route.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Seraphim73
I know this sounds harsh and I apologize but it seems to me that satan would be pretty pleased that so many Christians argue that good works aren’t necessary. Seems like just the kind of deception he’d love.

Well, I’m pretty sure there exist Christians who trivialize good works – although how many is a different question. I won’t try to speak for Seraphim73, but I think it’s important to note that he merely said “so many …” without naming denominations.

 

[Butzi]

I don’t want to be inflammatory with my answer in responding to the OP, but for me, after studying the early Church and the circumstances leading up to Vatican I after the schism with the east convinced me that papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction was a Western novelty. This alone was a convincing argument against the West.

These were things (amongst many others) that I wish I knew before converting to Catholicism. I’m sure that the things I discovered after my conversion would convince at least some individuals who were discerning Catholicism to look east.

 

[friardchips]

Only the Lord does good, through us. Only God can judge how ‘good’, a ‘good’ work is. So the term ‘trivialize good works’ can’t really apply to anyone apart from to God - we do works, God decides if it is good. God makes those opportunities and God gives us the strength to carry them out, we just have to say “yes” (a bit like Mary’s “Fiat” in the Annunciation).

'Faith is the faculty by which we access saving grace.’ - exactly. But of what does faith consist if it is only the belief that God exists, it is also the expression of our reciprocation of that love He shows us, in works of charity, that is also a work of faith - a work of expression of trust and love in God’s providential care - which God judges whether is good or not, not by the scale of the act, but by the love (the Godliness) with which it is carried out.

 

[clem456]

Only the Lord does good, through us. Only God can judge how ‘good’, a ‘good’ work is. So the term ‘trivialize good works’ doesn’t really apply to anything. We do works, God decides if it is good. God makes those opportunities and God gives us the strength to carry them out, we just have to say “yes” (a bit like Mary’s “Fiat” in the Annunciation).

'Faith is the faculty by which we access saving grace.’ - exactly. But of what does faith consist if it is only the belief that God exists, it is also the expression of our reciprocation of that love He shows us, in works of faith, who God judges whether is good or not, not by the scale of the act, but by the love (the Godliness) with which it is carried out.

Very nice.
“He who is faithful in a small thing is faithful in great things.”
Faith is not just agreement. It is not just understanding concepts.
It requires the seemingly small and insignificant step of trust in God. Just as Mary’s small “yes” gave Christ an ark in which to reside, God takes our faith and multiplies it’s fruitfulness.

 

[guanophore]

I think, respectfully to you, that being parted fully from grace is not something that happens for the most part, even when having committed mortal sin. Sometimes God might hide His face, and sometimes we turn away from Him, but if He were to take His grace away (a full parting) then there would be no comeback.

Indeed, God desires all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth. It is clear in the letters of Revelation that He is always ready for us to repent from our sins so that we can be united with Him again.

I was thinking the other day of an analogy - the Jetstream. Grace is a bit like that jet stream. Once baptised we enter nearer to it, we are elevated from ground-zero. Now whether in the form of an awakening or for those who maintained going to Church in their lives, these people have entered into the momentum of the jet stream of grace itself. Now when we turn away we can fall out of the jet stream, but that does not mean that the jet-stream is not still there and that we fall completely on the ground, by the very fact we are baptised. It does not even mean that when we have sinned mortally God is not still helping us. The saving grace is still there but we have dropped ourselves out of recognising it is there, and so we, hopefully temporarily, don’t really want to get back into it again. Yet, the angels nudge as the Holy Spirit offers opportunities for change, and waits patiently until we go: “okay, yes, let’s go again.” The thing is, is that although we have taken ourselves from that grace, God can put us back there again, in the same place we were. The difference being that the jet-stream will take us, if we can avoid sin, further - we progress onto new places of the journey God wishes to take us on - but when we sin, mortally, we drop out of the main momentum and so don’t get taken along quite as quickly, because God has to make us light enough to enter the main jet-stream again.

It is a very good analogy. I think of it similarly, as the River of Life, in which we become jointed to Christ in Baptism, but from which we can depart into the desert.

. This difference is because grace works within us, even through the process of forgiveness after sin, as this forgiveness changes the expressions and movements of the heart, and we grow in it and are sensitised, thanks be, to God’s mercy.

It seems to me that Protestants separate this grace that sanctifies from the grace that justifies, so that it is no longer considered part of “salvation”.

The great thing about being able to rely on God to keep us light is because then we will reach where He wants us to be, quicker, and we will become adept at trusting in God’s power to keep us light and maintain that focus of looking at Him with mind and heart aligned. It is important to keep looking at God so that His jet stream of grace carries us along to where we need to be; God’s way is always the scenic route.

He is the author and finisher of our faith, and is able to make us stand.

 

[friardchips]

Very nice.

“He who is faithful in a small thing is faithful in great things.”
Faith is not just agreement. It is not just understanding concepts.
It requires the seemingly small and insignificant step of trust in God. Just as Mary’s small “yes” gave Christ an ark in which to reside, God takes our faith and multiplies it’s fruitfulness.

…and there it is! Amen!

 

[friardchips]

Indeed, God desires all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth. It is clear in the letters of Revelation that He is always ready for us to repent from our sins so that we can be united with Him again.

Yes. Another dangerous aspect of why sin is dangerous is that we can come to not trust that His forgiveness is still there and that we can be united with Him again. Satan takes advantage of guilt as the Accuser and as imperfect beings we have to make sure we keep getting back up and reaffirm our faith each time.

It is a very good analogy. I think of it similarly, as the River of Life, in which we become jointed to Christ in Baptism, but from which we can depart into the desert.

Thank you! I actually prefer your analogy as it fits with the ‘spring’ of life in which we refresh ourselves, and as you say, Baptism. Also, a river has a calmer gentleness about it. God being in “the gentle breeze” and flowing waters.

It seems to me that Protestants separate this grace that sanctifies from the grace that justifies, so that it is no longer considered part of “salvation”.

I don’t know what they believe. The problem with having to try and see what Catholics see is that there will be the temptation to categorise and compartmentalise and this is all dangerous for their faith, and yet, natural to want to do this in their minds. I think the only way for barriers or divisions separating Protestants from Catholics, allowing God’s mercy to flow over the divides, is for sharing faith with one another at social events. This way, instead of categorizing, the faith would be shared through eating together, or creative activities, and whatever else.

He is the author and finisher of our faith, and is able to make us stand.

God being the author of our lives is a reassuring thought.

 

[Stilldreamn]

It seems to me that Protestants separate this grace that sanctifies from the grace that justifies, so that it is no longer considered part of “salvation”.

He is the author and finisher of our faith, and is able to make us stand.

I think we do look at grace in a variety of ways. As a Lutheran, I see grace in both justification and sanctification, although they are different works. Redemption was accomplished by Christ and is offered to us as a free gift of grace (and I hasten to add that while the gift is free it also produces a changed heart and works). Sanctification is a work the Holy Spirit does in me over time through grace received in Word and Sacrament.

 

[Seraphim73]

What is sad is that you have missed the point and thus fail with your criticism. Who says good works are not necessary, and to what end are they ? Satan is happy when we rest on our good works.
Some have said that the entrance to the Pearly Gates has trick floor. As soon as you use the word "I’ in answering St. Peter why he should let you in, the floor opens up and you go “down” .

I appreciate you being sad for me but it does beg the question. If we agree works are necessary what are we discussing?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Great debate so far guys. I’m bragging to the other mods about this thread. So keep up the good work.
Also, keep in mind the meter’s running. **

 

[Randy_Carson]

O.P.

Just sayin’.

:bounce:

 

[Seraphim73]

“Theology without action is the theology of demons.” - St Maximus the Confessor

 

[benjohnson]

I think the only way for barriers or divisions separating Protestants from Catholics, allowing God’s mercy to flow over the divides, is for sharing faith with one another at social events. This way, instead of categorizing, the faith would be shared through eating together, or creative activities, and whatever else.

To meet and share our faith, with each other, as you have described would be a blessing.

 

[clem456]

To meet and share our faith, with each other, as you have described would be a blessing.

I participate in a small bible study with 4 Catholics and several other denominations, seven or eight men total.
The conversations sometimes address contentious issues but do not become uncharitable or stubborn like on the internet. I myself have a difficult time remembering a human being is behind a post on the internet.

In this small group setting the desire to prove a point at all costs fades away and the personal nature of faith takes priority. Maintaining relationships becomes more important that proving your point. This is not to say my Catholic faith is compromised in any way. It’s just that the bond of love comes alive when people get together in God’s name. We take pleasure in each other’s company, we study the scriptures and talk, and we pray together. Friends don’t go on and on without acknowledging each other’s faith. If you are to stay together, you must understand another person.

I can tell you, there is no more awesome experience than to pray together week after week with a group of Christian people. You come to experience the love and support of fellow travelers who are all seeking God. It is a very powerful life-changing experience.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I participate in a small bible study with 4 Catholics and several other denominations, seven or eight men total.
The conversations sometimes address contentious issues but do not become uncharitable or stubborn like on the internet. I myself have a difficult time remembering a human being is behind a post on the internet.

In this small group setting the desire to prove a point at all costs fades away and the personal nature of faith takes priority. Maintaining relationships becomes more important that proving your point. This is not to say my Catholic faith is compromised in any way. It’s just that the bond of love comes alive when people get together in God’s name. We take pleasure in each other’s company, we study the scriptures and talk, and we pray together. Friends don’t go on and on without acknowledging each other’s faith. If you are to stay together, you must understand another person.

I can tell you, there is no more awesome experience than to pray together week after week with a group of Christian people. You come to experience the love and support of fellow travelers who are all seeking God. It is a very powerful life-changing experience.

Wow what an awesome post! :clapping:

 

[benhur]

I appreciate you being sad for me but it does beg the question. If we agree works are necessary what are we discussing?

Well do we need works to get to heaven, but more specifically here, for justification, key word being “for” as opposed to "because of " ? Or to stay in grace ? To continue to be washed of sin ?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Well do we need works to get to heaven, but more specifically here, for justification, key word being “for” as opposed to "because of " ? Or to stay in grace ? To continue to be washed of sin ?

Mt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[benhur]

Mt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Again, to be saved or because of already being justified ? We “inherit” the kingdom or do we earn it ? Do we love our neighbor to earn the kingdom , or because we have already been placed in it ("we are seated in heavenly places Eph 2:6) , and given the characteristic of God, love ?
The fundamental question is, have you been born again,have you been born of the spirit, for this must happen to enter the kingdom. If you have you will exhibit these qualities.I tell you of these qualities, more so you can gauge for yourselves if indeed you are on the right path, because of new life in the Holy Spirit. Do you have oil in your lamps (the parable before this ) ? Are you a sheep or are you a goat ? The whole object of works here is not to gain grace but indeed to show if you are in grace. Jesus is preaching to lost sheep, even to goats.