Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[cheese_sdc]

Well, at least I know why I would never become a Unitarian Universalist. What a great outlook.

Not all Unitarian Univeralists believe as I do. That’s the beauty of the denomination.

Also, I didn’t say that Love didn’t exist. I said that, as an unconscious driver of people’s decisions, it is more rare than fear or shame.

In my experience, love takes more self awareness to influence a person. Ergo, it is more of a “free will” emotion than fear and shame. When Love is motivating me, I’m stepping out of fear and letting my conscious self make decisions.

When fear or shame are calling the shots, it’s definitely less “free will”. lol

 

[Aslan10]

Not all Unitarian Univeralists believe as I do. That’s the beauty of the denomination.

Also, I didn’t say that Love didn’t exist. I said that, as an unconscious driver of people’s decisions, it is more rare than fear or shame.

In my experience, love takes more self awareness to influence a person. Ergo, it is more of a “free will” emotion than fear and shame. When Love is motivating me, I’m stepping out of fear and letting my conscious self make decisions.

When fear or shame are calling the shots, it’s definitely less “free will”. lol

Beautifully said.

 

[Protestor]

If I could be a catholic and believe what I believe now I would become Catholic, but because I have been told this is not possible I am against becoming a Catholic.

I think you are asking a frequently asked question here which goes something like “why you are not catholic or the number one reason why you are not catholic or any other version of this question”.

 

[SteveVH]

If I could be a catholic and believe what I believe now I would become Catholic, but because I have been told this is not possible I am against becoming a Catholic.

So, as a matter of priority, your personal beliefs trump everything else? What if you found that some of your personal beliefs actually contradicted the truth? Shouldn’t we seek truth above holding on to our own beliefs?

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I think giraffes shouldn’t become Catholic. It’s a long way down to the kneeling position.

Oh, and snakes can’t kneel worth a darn. No knees.

 

[ffg]

Love is much more rare than fear and shame.

…

Because of that thing called free will.

It’s so much easier to choose to not love than to reflect love.

Love is surely something worth the effort, when we see it’s effects as motivation.

 

[SteveVH]

Not all Unitarian Univeralists believe as I do. That’s the beauty of the denomination.

Also, I didn’t say that Love didn’t exist. I said that, as an unconscious driver of people’s decisions, it is more rare than fear or shame.

In my experience, love takes more self awareness to influence a person. Ergo, it is more of a “free will” emotion than fear and shame. When Love is motivating me, I’m stepping out of fear and letting my conscious self make decisions.

When fear or shame are calling the shots, it’s definitely less “free will”. lol

No doubt that we can be and are influenced by many things. Nevertheless, we are rational beings with the gift of free will and are responsible for our choices in spite of outside influences. If the martyrs could choose to remain faithful, even in the face of death, I think it is possible for us all to make the right choices regardless of the influence.

What you say concerning love is spot on. Love sets us free and gives us courage.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Kliska]

I’ve often said there are 2 “earthly ways” a protestant could become catholic; the long way or the short way. The long way is to examine the doctrines and dogmas individually and see if they align with the written word, and as time goes on, as more doctrines and dogmas are defined, this way gets longer and longer. The short way is to examine the teachings of infallibility and if the church was promised it would never ever err in doctrine and dogma, and then conclude that describes the RCC. Of course there is also the direct conviction of the Holy Spirit of these things.

As of yet, these things haven’t happened for me. I will say that studying the teachings of the RCC, as well as interacting with knowledgeable individuals from many Christian denominations has really helped me grow as a Christian and to understand where others are coming from.

 

[SteveVH]

I’ve often said there are 2 “earthly ways” a protestant could become catholic; the long way or the short way. The long way is to examine the doctrines and dogmas individually and see if they align with the written word, and as time goes on, as more doctrines and dogmas are defined, this way gets longer and longer. The short way is to examine the teachings of infallibility and if the church was promised it would never ever err in doctrine and dogma, and then conclude that describes the RCC. Of course there is also the direct conviction of the Holy Spirit of these things.

As of yet, these things haven’t happened for me. I will say that studying the teachings of the RCC, as well as interacting with knowledgeable individuals from many Christian denominations has really helped me grow as a Christian and to understand where others are coming from.

Always enjoy your posts, Kliska.

Just a comment on the “long way” and the “short way”. I think it is a matter of logical progression to start at the “short way” and proceed from there, with the help of the Holy Spirit. The doctrines of the Church are only as reliable as the authority that created them.

In a nut shell, start with Jesus. We know that he founded a Church and gave that Church unheard of authority; the “keys”, given to Peter alone; the power to bind and loose; the power to forgive sins. He sent the Church as he had been sent. Incredible authority. But check it out. Be skeptical if you want, but be honest. Find out what those verses really mean. Much has been written about them. And when you’re pretty darn sure that the Catholic Church just may be the one, then start studying its doctrines and see if they speak to your heart. The Catholic Church is either authentic or it is not.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve often said there are 2 “earthly ways” a protestant could become catholic; the long way or the short way. The long way is to examine the doctrines and dogmas individually and see if they align with the written word, and as time goes on, as more doctrines and dogmas are defined, this way gets longer and longer. The short way is to examine the teachings of infallibility and if the church was promised it would never ever err in doctrine and dogma, and then conclude that describes the RCC. Of course there is also the direct conviction of the Holy Spirit of these things.

As of yet, these things haven’t happened for me. I will say that studying the teachings of the RCC, as well as interacting with knowledgeable individuals from many Christian denominations has really helped me grow as a Christian and to understand where others are coming from.

Kliska-

I have to say that I think you are spot on here, and I’m impressed.

Quite often, I have been engaged in a discussion about the Assumption or some VERY specific detail about Catholic theology when the other party says, “Where is that in the Bible?”

Now, I could try to build a case from scripture, but as we both know, not everything that Christians believe is explicitly stated in the Bible. Quite often, I have thought, “Well, you have the cart before the horse; if you understood that an infallible Church has defined this, you would have fewer objections.”

Most discussions eventually lead back to the question of authority: Scripture v. Church, and although I don’t agree that it’s either/or, that’s often how the non-Catholic sees the situation.

Finally, I will say that a lot of converts do successfully travel the long road (Scott Hahn and Steven Ray come to mind, for example), but I’m pleased that you are aware of the shortcut and I hope that you find it. :yup:

 

[Stilldreamn]

These don’t take into account the Catholic Church’s own perspective on the matter. If someone is considering joining the Catholic Church, then chances are they already believe in the authority and legitimacy of the Catholic Church. So, this person would want to look at the prospect from the Catholic Church’s perspective, rather than from the perspective of a Lutheran or even the Lutheran church or their own church, which presumably they no longer believe has as much authority over relaying God’s will as the Catholic Church does.

I don’t see the reasons that Ben offered as being particularly “Lutheran” - but they seem very “human” to me. Particularly when you deal with an event that could shake the faith of another Christian it seems important to make any transition as gentle as possible (I’m thinking of elderly relatives, other dependents).

What kind of witness to the truth would it be to abandon your responsibilities in your zeal for grasping the fullness of the truth for yourself - and alienating a host of other believers in the process? Education and teaching take a lot of time, and God knows our hearts.

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t see the reasons that Ben offered as being particularly “Lutheran” - but they seem very “human” to me. Particularly when you deal with an event that could shake the faith of another Christian it seems important to make any transition as gentle as possible (I’m thinking of elderly relatives, other dependents).

What kind of witness to the truth would it be to abandon your responsibilities in your zeal for grasping the fullness of the truth for yourself - and alienating a host of other believers in the process? Education and teaching take a lot of time, and God knows our hearts.

Sound advice.

 

[Aslan10]

So, as a matter of priority, your personal beliefs trump everything else? What if you found that some of your personal beliefs actually contradicted the truth? Shouldn’t we seek truth above holding on to our own beliefs?

I think this is a ridiculous assumption that the previous poster somehow does not formulate their personal beliefs on what he/she thinks is true. Maybe, the Catholic idea of truth, isn’t as black and white, or as blatantly obvious as you make it sound? For me it is not. There a lot of things that I love about it, that I respect about it, but some things that I don’t believe are true. And these disagreements are based on seeking truth. That doesn’t mean I cannot be swayed in the future, however. It would be dishonest for many to be Catholic, myself included.

You could also be asked the same question “What if you found that some of your personal beliefs actually contradicted truth?” Just because you are Catholic, does not mean your personal beliefs are impeccable, but I guess when it comes to your doctrinal beliefs, you do believe that…

 

[SteveVH]

I think this is a ridiculous assumption that the previous poster somehow does not formulate their personal beliefs on what he/she thinks is true.

That isn’t what I said. The previous poster stated that they would become Catholic if they didn’t have to leave their currently held beliefs at the door. The poster’s personal beliefs are then the first priority. My only question is whether or not this should be the case, and yes, that would apply to all of us.

 

[epan]

Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

Thanks.

(1) Because of the role of the Papacy and the Vatican politics in determining Catholic beliefs.

(2) Because even when they have done wrong, the leaders of the Catholic Church often do not have the courage to tell the truth, and admit publicly what they have done.

(3) Because when a moral act is required, the Catholic Church often appears to put that priority second to political convenience, and as a lower priority than appeasing public opinion.

 

[JonNC]

=sscott;12410483]If you don’t believe you have to confess to a priest

Lutherans confess to a priest.

If you don’t believe Jesus is present in the Eucharist

Lutherans believe in the real presence.

If you don’t think birth control is a sin

Hmm. Depends on intent, ISTM. We are to be fruitful and multiply.

If you don’t believe the Pope is Christ’s representative on earth

He’s one of them, certainly. How the CC interprets this answers the OP for me.

If you don’t think divorce is wrong

We think it is wrong.

If you don’t think homosexuality is a sin.

Homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual acts are sin.

Jon

 

[Catholic_farmer]

(1) Because of the role of the Papacy and the Vatican politics in determining Catholic beliefs.

(2) Because even when they have done wrong, the leaders of the Catholic Church often do not have the courage to tell the truth, and admit publicly what they have done.

(3) Because when a moral act is required, the Catholic Church often appears to put that priority second to political convenience, and as a lower priority than appeasing public opinion.

1. Politics playing into religion is most obvious in protestant denominations that have swayed in their teachings based on popular opinion. I see the Catholic Church as quite the opposite. She holds to the original teachings as close as she can.
2. Individuals have done wrong within the Church. The Church has made many, many changes over the past ten years to correct the culture that allowed abuse. I see no reason to dismiss a 2,000 year old institution, founded by Christ, because of a small minority (best estimate is about 2%) of criminals that abused the trust given to them. It would unrealistic to expect a Church, despite the promise that the Holy Spirit would guide it until the end of time, to nonetheless, have fallen humans within it. Even Jesus had Judas among His original apostles. What is a real shame is to dismiss 98% of good, honest, people within the Catholic Church that are trying to follow the Holy Spirit.
3. I disagree with this last statement. The Church has stood against politics, time and again. Communism is a great recent example. The example today in Pope Francis assures me that I am in the one holy, apostolic, church. He is popular precisely because he does the unpopular thing. A simple example is his visit to the West Bank. That would have been political suicide for any other human on earth.

 

[JonNC]

(1) Because of the role of the Papacy and the Vatican politics in determining Catholic beliefs.

(2) Because even when they have done wrong, the leaders of the Catholic Church often do not have the courage to tell the truth, and admit publicly what they have done.

(3) Because when a moral act is required, the Catholic Church often appears to put that priority second to political convenience, and as a lower priority than appeasing public opinion.

On 1) Much of Catholic beliefs seem to predate “Vatican politics”. Do you have an example?

On 2, 3) Sounds like a communion made up of human beings to me. Not an excuse, but the whole plank and speck thing keeps me from being too vocal about this.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

He’s one of them, certainly. **How the CC interprets this answers the OP for me.**Jon

And yet, Jon, you have not formulated a response to my questions about the royal steward presented in another thread.

This is the ultimate issue for you, and your silence is telling.

Praise God!

 

[Protestor]

So, as a matter of priority, your personal beliefs trump everything else? What if you found that some of your personal beliefs actually contradicted the truth?

The previous poster stated that they would become Catholic if they didn’t have to leave their currently held beliefs at the door. The poster’s personal beliefs are then the first priority. My only question is whether or not this should be the case

I believe my beliefs are the truth. If I did not believe they were true I wouldn’t believe them. I am not saying that I am not wrong about some of them, because I most likely am, but I can only assent to that which I know. Please don’t get into a epistemological commentary on that last sentence.

My personal beliefs are my 3rd priority. If I found that my personal beliefs contradicted the truth then I would change them. My 3rd priority does not affect my 1st so I see no reason to change the 3rd. Especially since I believe the 3rd to be right.

You have to understand my position if your claims are correct. If you are in fact correct, then I have been in a lot of different denominations that all claim that they hold the most truth and do not. So of course I will set my personal beliefs as trumping all others. If you are correct then I have been listening to people my whole life telling me falsehoods and saying that they are truths. So it would make sense for me to be skeptical of a church that claims that everything it says is either the truth or I have to accept as truth when it comes to faith and morals.