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IWantGod
Guest
Well, what do you think it means to say that God doesn’t intervene in nature? For me it simply means that God does not intervene in the natural development of physical reality…
Given the principles of evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc, do you think belief in the supernatural will die out or become a m
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reggieM
Guest
God does not intervene in the life of a human being?
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IWantGod
Guest
That’s different.
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steve_b
Guest
As in a few few? Those are on the narrow road.
As for the wide road to perdition gang, that is for everyone else, their choice is, top down, pedal to the metal, hair flying in the breeze, stereo blaring, flags waving, not a care in the world…right off the cliff.
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth",
Note:
Jesus, the one who will judge all souls, living and dead, is telling us in advance what will happen in the end.
- Jesus knowing in advance what He is going to go through, and all humanity will go through, answers the question given to Him.
- Jesus didn’t deny the questioner’s point or correct it for being wrong. Jesus actually validated the point, and expanded on it.
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reggieM
Guest
Agreed, but this contradicts the idea that “God does not intervene in nature”.
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IWantGod
Guest
God doesn’t intervene with the natural development of the universe. But if God intervenes with a being who has free-will and calls on the will of God that is clearly different.
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Bradski
Guest
Good point. And it’s the only way I see evolution (and science in general) making a difference to those who might hold a belief in God. If a significant minority of Christians take Reggie’s view that it’s all stuff and nonsense, then there will be a tendency to reject Christianity as being out of touch.
We see this with discussions re single sex marriage. The more strident the arguments against it, the more those on the fence are rejecting what they see as a religiously based viewpoint.
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steve_b
Guest
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reggieM
Guest
Not really even a Father in that viewpoint. He’s like the Deist god. Got things started and then is never seen or heard from again.
So He’s an absentee Father?
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edwest2
Guest
God wound up everything like a toy and let it run? Jesus Christ is the best example of God intervening. And doing things like raising the dead, giving sight to the blind and other things, all without science.
And God sent Mary to earth to give us His messages at various times.
Ed
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reggieM
Guest
Do you think Christianity is consistent with evolutionary theory?
I think it’s a lose-lose situation.
In one case, Christianity goes along with atheistic evolutionary theories (that humans are reducible to mutations and selection alone) and thus proves itself to be useless. So more turn away and become atheist.
In the other case, Christians like me reject the theory and that causes more to turn away from Christianity and become atheist.
If true, they’re not just rejecting that viewpoint on an issue, but they’re rejecting Christianity along with it.
But again, I don’t see that as the case in Muslim societies. The more strident they are, the more growth they have.
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reggieM
Guest
That’s what the Catholic Faith is all about.
Unfortunately, some Catholics are more willing to defend evolution and belief in a non-interventionist god than they are to accept the teachings that came to us from the true God.
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Bradski
Guest
If I were a Christian, I wouldn’t have any problem with it. Millions don’t. The only problem I see is with those who still want to believe in some version of a literal Adam and Eve.
Your first statement is not how many millions of Christians view the matter. It seems more of a problem for you. Your second statement is correct. You are part of the problem. Not that I see it as a problem myself.
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reggieM
Guest
No Adam and Eve and therefore, no Original Sin - right?
I don’t see it as a problem either. There are many millions of Christians, Jews and Muslims who are creationists and reject Darwinism.
I don’t think there are those kinds of numbers of Christians who deny Adam and Eve (to do so is to reject defined Catholic teaching) and Original Sin.
I asked a Catholic CAF member here to show me one evolutionary paper that claims that evolution does not explain the entirety of the origin of human beings but only “'the human body” - or as it was said - “the human form”. No such paper was provided. I don’t think any exist.
So, evolution is a denial of the dogmatic Catholic teaching – that God directly infuses (creates) an immortal soul (rationality, memory, intelligence, will, imagination) into each human at conception.
From the Catholic perspective, science cannot even define what a human being is, since it can only speak of empirical data. The difference between human and proposed non-human ancestor is not reducible to science. Evolution cannot explain the origin of human beings - you can see a soul in fossils.
But evolutionary biology disagrees with Catholic teaching on that point also.
So, the list goes on.
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DeoVindice1863
Guest
What if God used Evolution as His means to create us? This seems logical, as atheistic evolution is impossible.
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reggieM
Guest
That would conflict with contemporary evolutionary theory as professed by the vast majority of evolutionary biologists.
I am ok with Catholics claiming that there is another, better theory. But they have to reject the current one to do that, and only a rare few want to take that risk.
Atheistic evolution is the consensus view. That is the view taught in textbooks.
EdWest has a list of quotes found in evolutionary textbooks - they all claim that evolution created human beings through a blind, unintelligent, unguided process that did not have human beings as a goal.
That is necessary in evolutionary theory because mutations are claimed to be random and are analyzed as such. It’s an entirely unintelligent result - no Design, no Intelligence guiding it allowed.
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reggieM
Guest
If you were a Christian would you also agree with the statement quoted above that “God does not intervene in nature”?
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Bradski
Guest
Correct.
If they don’t reject evolution and believe in Adam and Eve, I’m not sure how they can reconcile those two views. Some cognitive dissonance at work apparently.
I don’t see a problem with the infusion of a soul at conception if you are Christian. Although you might have some work in defining soul so that it doesn’t conflict with aspects of the human condition that are evolutionary based.
I presume you meant to say that you can’t see a soul in fossils. Which is true. But then I can’t see one in living creatures either. It’s not a scientific concept so isn’t included in the scientific definition of a human being.
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Bradski
Guest
I think so. But I would tend towards deism in any case, which is not the same as being a Christian. Maybe I should have said ‘If I believed in God’.
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edwest2
Guest
Without a literal Adam and Eve, there is no Original Sin and no reason for Jesus Christ to be born, to tell us how to be saved and what to do, then He died as a sacrifice for us all. And rose to life, wounds and all, bodily.
Ed
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