Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

[josephdavid]

Are you really going to go down this road again? Where do these quotes tie into charity? Where do the extol the government to provide for the needy?

There never has been confusion on rendering unto Caesar. But there has been a question of what Caesar should do with what has been rendered.

I note you failed to include 1883 and 2431 to put your quotes into perspective.

You mean:

1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, **but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”**7

2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society."217

Which based upon our Constitution gaurantees this. I know of no law currently that limits freedom and private property.

 

[josephdavid]

If I may suggest Suudy is to read Piux XI Quadragesimo Anno

 

[Suudy]

You mean:

Which based upon our Constitution gaurantees this. I know of no law currently that limits freedom and private property.

Like I said, we’ve been over this. It says support and coordinate, not provide. Why are federal dollars being used to usurp the roles of the states? How many more dollars would the states have I’d the federal government didn’t take 30+% of the income of its residents?

 

[josephdavid]

Another good read is Pope Leo XIII encyclical Rerum Novarum.

A quote:

1. Whenever the general interest or any particular class suffers, or is threatened with harm, which can in no other way be met or prevented, the public authority must step in to deal with it.

From 32:

This is the proper scope of wise statesmanship and is the work of the rulers. Now a State chiefly prospers and thrives through moral rule, well-regulated family life, respect for religion and justice, the moderation and fair imposing of public taxes, the progress of the arts and of trade, the abundant yield of the land-through everything, in fact, which makes the citizens better and happier. Hereby, then, it lies in the power of a ruler to benefit every class in the State, and amongst the rest to promote to the utmost the interests of the poor; and this in virtue of his office, and without being open to suspicion of undue interference - since it is the province of the commonwealth to serve the common good. And the more that is done for the benefit of the working classes by the general laws of the country, the less need will there be to seek for special means to relieve them

#33 is a good one too.

 

[josephdavid]

Like I said, we’ve been over this. It says support and coordinate, not provide. Why are federal dollars being used to usurp the roles of the states? How many more dollars would the states have I’d the federal government didn’t take 30+% of the income of its residents?

Main Entry: support
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: take care of, provide for
Synonyms: angel*, attend to, back, bankroll, be a source of strength, bring up, buoy up, care for, chaperon, cherish, earn one’s keep, encourage, feed, finance, fortify, foster, fund, give a leg up, guard, keep, keep an eye on, look after, maintain, make a living, nourish, nurse, pay expenses of, pay for, pick up the check, prop, put up money for, raise, set up, sponsor, stake, stiffen, strengthen, stroke, subsidize, succor, sustain, underwrite, uphold
Antonyms: let go, neglect, refuse, reject

The Federal Government takes 30% of my income? Curious what is the effective tax rate here in the U.S.?

 

[josephdavid]

I am still waiting to hear what laws limit or restrict liberty, freedom, ownership of private property.

 

[Suudy]

If I may suggest Suudy is to read Piux XI Quadragesimo Anno

I suggest you read JPII’s Centessimus (here vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html ). Take both together.

We’ve been over this before. Read the big long thread I argued with extensively a few months ago about this very point and these encyclicals. Many of us have argued this with you.

 

[Suudy]

I am still waiting to hear what laws limit or restrict liberty, freedom, ownership of private property.

Dude, be patient. I’m on an iPhone and posting long, liked threads is challenging.

 

[josephdavid]

I suggest you read JPII’s Centessimus (here vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html ). Take both together.

We’ve been over this before. Read the big long thread I argued with extensively a few months ago about this very point and these encyclicals. Many of us have argued this with you.

From Centessimus Annus:

1. Another important aspect, which has many applications to our own day, is the concept of the relationship between the State and its citizens. Rerum novarum criticizes two social and economic systems: socialism and liberalism. The opening section, in which the right to private property is reaffirmed, is devoted to socialism. Liberalism is not the subject of a special section, but it is worth noting that criticisms of it are raised in the treatment of the duties of the State.32 The State cannot limit itself to “favouring one portion of the citizens”, namely the rich and prosperous, nor can it “neglect the other”, which clearly represents the majority of society. Otherwise, there would be a violation of that law of justice which ordains that every person should receive his due. “When there is question of defending the rights of individuals, the defenceless and the poor have a claim to special consideration. The richer class has many ways of shielding itself, and stands less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back on, and must chiefly depend on the assistance of the State. It is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong to the latter class, should be specially cared for and protected by the Government”.

These passages are relevant today, especially in the face of the new forms of poverty in the world, and also because they are affirmations which do not depend on a specific notion of the State or on a particular political theory. Leo XIII is repeating an elementary principle of sound political organization, namely, the more that individuals are defenceless within a given society, the more they require the care and concern of others, and in particular the intervention of governmental authority

 

[josephdavid]

Dude, be patient. I’m on an iPhone and posting long, liked threads is challenging.

Ahhh ok. No problem.

 

[josephdavid]

More from Centeimus Anno:

1. Rerum novarum is opposed to State control of the means of production, which would reduce every citizen to being a “cog” in the State machine. It is no less forceful in criticizing a concept of the State which completely excludes the economic sector from the State’s range of interest and action. There is certainly a legitimate sphere of autonomy in economic life which the State should not enter. The State, however, has the task of determining the juridical framework within which economic affairs are to be conducted, and thus of safeguarding the prerequisites of a free economy, which presumes a certain equality between the parties, such that one party would not be so powerful as practically to reduce the other to subservience.

 

[Tigg]

Tigg:

Being charitable is an opportunity to practice virtue and grow in holiness. How can paying your taxes, since you have no choice in the matter; indeed, are compelled to do so, with neither a say in how much you will pay or how it is to be used, be considered an act of virtue??

So paying taxes is bad and against our faith? Would paying taxes towards the Common Good (Which Mr. Beck professes we run from) be against our faith? Or at least not Christian?

You know I wasn’t saying that….(render unto Caesar.) Social programs are necessary, but are also a way of creating a culture of dependency and a detriment to an individual sense of self-worth. And who determines the common good? A socialist government that is ordered toward materialism and bent on the goal that we all be equally impoverished? You are quick to quote the encyclicals….let me find the one in which Pope Leo defines equality.

 

[brother_dan_mac]

I agree! Whatever sins Glen has or has not committed, they are between him and his maker. They are irrelevant.

The truth at any one point in time] does not change, but speaks for itself.

As for the rally. I thought it was excelent, and Dr. Alveta King was quite articulative, as were the other guests. And this was a fundraiser, after all, and that is always good when it is for a good cause.

As to the question of big government being responsible: I say they are responsible for the common good of their own employees, as to insure the neccesssities of the families are provided for, as spelled out in Catholic Social Teaching encyclicals and the like, when refering to humans as a whole needing to guarantee same neccessities are given to the population in general and in it’s totality… In essence, when the government is the employer, it is responsible, especially when the employee is asked to risk forfeiting their very life for their country, if neccessary.

I believe it was Humana Vitae that stated that any form of governance can work for the common good of all, and be successful and morally responsive, if and only if, it truly has the interest of the whole in mind. This being said, the encyclical went on to realize that no government thus far has lived up to the criteria, and therefore it is up to the individuals within the State to ensure these things for those who would be denied these basics.

Oh, sure, the fed has at times of crisis and natural disasters abroad, shown it will step up a bit, but that is surely attributed to the great need for positive world opinion, which is sorely lacking due to the corrupt policies and actions [violations to the common good of the world] that cause hatred of our once great country worldwide.

It is only when God enters any given heart, that true compassion and care for the less fortunate, will be realized and be addressed. That is why religious organizations are so much more affective and effective when it comes to charity. Government will be wasteful and inadequate, at best, most especially in these times of self-servitude and greed.

 

[brother_dan_mac]

I want to state also, my beliefs about the tea party movement:
While the movement started out as a tax-disputing group * , it has evolved into a rather large constituency of citizens who are quite fed up [and rightly so!] with our federal government and state government’s careless and wasteful [not to mention self-serving and arrogant] missuse of the moneys we have entrusted to them. They are a symptom of a LONG history of missmanagement and missapropriation that have permiated these powerful entities, ever more disgracefully in the past decade or two.

But, as I have stated, there has ALWAYS been corruption as long as there has been big government with big money. They will all have to meet their maker someday, and only THEN will their just deserves be given to them. We must endure all things, and hope all good, and do all charity with what WE have! After all; isn’t the NEXT life all that TRULY matters? This life and this world is only a tiny speck on eternity…*

 

[CMatt25]

If there were enough people who believed this way, it would sell. Fortunately there are not. This country, believe it or not, is right of center in personal behavior.

As far as you know I could be right of center too in personal behavior. But if the country votes right of center politically then now I perhaps can better understand why we’re always in a mess. The sky did not begin falling in 2009.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t, but then again I deify God and not Gov’t. Quite honestly, Beck is doing this country a service. Better yet, since Dennis Kucinich is someone whom you idolize, let’s say he held the rally instead of Beck but gave the exact same speech. Would you be as against Kucinich as you are Beck? Did you even bother to watch the event? I’m sure you can look it up on Youtube.

Perhaps the only political jab against Obama was made by Sarah Palin and that was about resisting fundamental transformation and instead embracing values restoration.

First of all I don’t “idolize” Kucinich. I agree with much of his politics. I also think the title of this thread is about Beck and the Tea Party. And the Tea Party is involved in conservative politics. And I know enough about Beck’s politics from watching him draw on his chalkboard on FOX than to have had to waste my time watching his sermon on the mall or wherever he held it. I trust though it wasn’t on a mount.

 

[CMatt25]

Oye, Dennis Kucinich? Seriously?

Seriously. Yes the Catholic congressman from Ohio. I think he even appeared in the documentary 'Sicko". You know the one directed by another Catholic, Michael Moore. Not sure if he appeared in “Capitalism”. Beck and the Tea Partiers could learn a lot about greed and America’s failed healthcare system though and how we have failed as a country to answer Christ’s call to care for the sick and the poor. More needs to be done. Not less by the govt. The Church and individuals haven’t been able to do it alone. But if we’re running around emphasizing other issues or like the priest at my nearest parish and we say the answer for the poor is to get a job, His call will never be fully answered by us. Peace.

 

[Andrew1983]

First of all I don’t “idolize” Kucinich. I agree with much of his politics. I also think the title of this thread is about Beck and the Tea Party. And the Tea Party is involved in conservative politics. And I know enough about Beck’s politics from watching him draw on his chalkboard on FOX than to have had to waste my time watching his sermon on the mall or wherever he held it. I trust though it wasn’t on a mount.

Excellent. This was a HUGE dodge on your part. If you didn’t watch the speeches, not just Beck, but any of them, you’re really commenting from a point of ignorance.

Don’t be a fellow traveler, go watch the event no matter how much you can’t stand Beck and then tell me if it’s a message that you would’ve agreed with had it come from Kucinich.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Seriously. Yes the Catholic congressman from Ohio. I think he even appeared in the documentary 'Sicko". You know the one directed by another Catholic, Michael Moore. Not sure if he appeared in “Capitalism”. Beck and the Tea Partiers could learn a lot about greed and America’s failed healthcare system though and how we have failed as a country to answer Christ’s call to care for the sick and the poor. More needs to be done. Not less by the govt. The Church and individuals haven’t been able to do it alone. But if we’re running around emphasizing other issues or like the priest at my nearest parish and we say the answer for the poor is to get a job, His call will never be fully answered by us. Peace.

If Dennis Kucinish and Michael Moore are Catholic, then I am a Mormon.

 

[josephdavid]

If Dennis Kucinish and Michael Moore are Catholic, then I am a Mormon.

That is not for you to decide who is Catholic and who is not.