Global warming slowdown could last another decade

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This sort of exposition goes to great lengths to focus on where global warming is not, while ignoring where global warming is. The oceans have vastly more mass (and specific heat, if you know what that means) than all the atmosphere. Can you truthfully claim this “pause” has applied to the ocean heat too?
 
I’m going to have to bookmark that one!
Note Theo’s tactic.
I’ll keep it real simple, since complex issues seem to go over your heads.

Facts you conveniently ignore about your purported ‘deniers’
  • we believe the climate changes (in historical record)
  • we believe man has an undetermined impact on the environment
  • we only ask for people to follow the scientific method, with integrity in using data.
  • we know current crop of models fail the scientific method.
 
I’ll keep it real simple, since complex issues seem to go over your heads.

Facts you conveniently ignore about your purported ‘deniers’
  • we believe the climate changes (in historical record)
  • we believe man has an undetermined impact on the environment
  • we only ask for people to follow the scientific method, with integrity in using data.
  • we know current crop of models fail the scientific method.
You have lectured on the scientific method on two threads so far without formulating it yourself. Your version seems to be a pop-Popperian/Feynmann version from one-liners you’ve heard…effectively a naive version of ’ falsifiability’ that has been abandoned by philosophers of science a long time ago.

Since we cannot agree on philosophy, the discussion of science or models is well beyond reach right now. We need to reach closure on how science works and proceeds first.
 
RSS monthly global mean lower-troposphere temperature anomalies (dark blue) and trend (thick bright blue line), October 1996 to August 2014, showing no trend for 17 years 11 months.
 
RSS monthly global mean lower-troposphere temperature anomalies (dark blue) and trend (thick bright blue line), October 1996 to August 2014, showing no trend for 17 years 11 months.
Once again, why not show all the data? More to the point, no one is denying a hiatus on the 15-year timescale in global surface (or lower tropospheric) temperatures. We do differ on interpreation.
 
I’ll keep it real simple, since complex issues seem to go over your heads.

Facts you conveniently ignore about your purported ‘deniers’
  • we believe the climate changes (in historical record)
  • we believe man has an undetermined impact on the environment
  • we only ask for people to follow the scientific method, with integrity in using data.
  • we know current crop of models fail the scientific method.
OK, I will keep this equally simple.
  • we believe the climate is changing, not only in the historical record, but is likely to continue.
  • we believe man has a measureable impact on the environment.
  • we believe we have been following the scientific method with integrity using data.
  • we know that the current crop of models are based on the scientific method.
But I want to know why, after you posted a graph of temperature data, you are so upset that Chris posted a more complete graph of that same temperature data? Could it be that the more complete graph shows how absurd it is to focus so much on the “hiatus”?
 
@lynnvic:
Do you know what a straw man fallacy is?
Either you’re intentionally not responding to me, an I ought to just ignore this, or you’re just avoiding my points and arguing against something else entirely for some other reason. Either way, it’s pretty tough to have a conversation about something when you go off on some other topic and ignore what I said, despite quoting me as if you were responding to me.
I.e., we don’t have to believe in gravity. Cool. I think I’ll fly away home now 🙂
The Church doesn’t mandate belief in particular scientific theories. That doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge the truth around us. However, gravity is an interesting point. Everyone always recognized the practical effects of gravity on our lives. But it took plenty of time, measurements, and investigation to come up with a detailed, unified theory of gravity–from measuring rates of acceleration, parabolic arcs, mass to weight, distance between bodies of mass, etc. Adam and Eve didn’t know and advance Newton’s theory, much less later refinements on it.

And you know what’s really interesting? Physicists are now casting into doubt long-accepted theories of the actual causes and workings of gravitational forces.

This doesn’t affect the practical day-to-day effects of gravity. But what it really is and how it affects things on a grand scale is still up for scientific investigation.

So thanks for proving my point, in a tangential and roundabout way 😉
JPII did say about evolution, “Truth [God, religious truth] cannot contradict truth [science of evolution, scientific “truth”].”
Of course. But scientists have been wrong plenty of times. This is one way that scientific discovery differs from revealed truth. Scientists are not infallible. The truth that God has revealed through the Church is.
This is instructive because we should not out-of-hand deny the conclusions that the vast majority of climate scientists have come to, that AGW is happening and is expected to have severe negative impacts to human welfare. Those who do so are stepping outside the thrust and thinking of church doctrine that includes “Thou shalt not kill.”
There are at least five different issues here.
1. One is that there are many different theories and models of what is happening. There is actually less “consensus” and over less time about these theories and their effects than there is with regards to evolution and many questions of physics or even physiology, and yet the Church does not step up to ringingly endorse the longer-established, more uniform theories and models in those other disciplines. It in fact still advocates healthy skepticism and requires room for doubt and investigation.

Status: We’re not exactly sure what’s happening. There’s a diversity of opinions and models are always changing.
Implications: The degree of uncertainty about what exactly is happening increases the uncertainty of everything else related to the issue.

2. Secondly, there are many different extrapolations about causes of what is being observed with regard to climate. This adds another level of uncertainty, and one in even more question among scientists – just like the causes of certain physical and biological phenomena are subject to more question and diversity of opinion than what is actually observed. The Church is even less likely to endorse or even tilt in favor of proposed causes, which might direct action towards an incorrect conclusion.

**Status: **We’re less sure about the particular causes of climate change, the relative importance of each, and the relative effects of each.
**Implications: **The degree of uncertainty about causes further increases uncertainty about predictions, impacts, and possibilities of manipulating the future by changing the causes.

**3. Thirdly, **there are many different predicted future trends of what may happen with regard to the climate. Again, another level of uncertainty, with wider variation even under AGW proponents. Again, the Church isn’t very likely to suggest that the faithful must hold to some predicted outcome, which might influence action.

**Status: **There’s even more uncertainty and wider variation about predictions of future climatic conditions.
Implications: It’s pretty difficult to predict impacts (and thus make reasonable cost/benefit analyses) with wide variations in predicted outcomes.

4. Fourthly, there are many different predictions about the impact to humans of the predicted climate change. The extent of this is one of the most uncertain aspects of all. The Church is not likely to weigh in on anything other than general concerns and warnings because of the high degree of uncertainty in this area.

Status: We know even less about how climate change will affect humans – particularly given the fact that so few models account for the powerful ability of humans to adapt (we are vastly better at adapting to living conditions than any other organism).
Implications: Those cost/benefit analyses of changing behaviors are getting even harder to make reasonable…

5. Fifthly, there are many different predictions about what impact changes to human behavior can have on the trends. Lots of uncertainty, here, too (though mostly scientists don’t seem to think we can actually do much, just influence it a little). Once again, doesn’t leave the Church much room or certainty in making a decision to bind the faithful.

**Status: **We’re not sure what we can do about climate change–how much we can affect it.
**Implication: **This factor by itself renders those cost/benefit analyses nearly worthless.
 
The above are all reasons that the Church leaves the matter so much to prudential judgment. And why my own prudential judgment leads me to advocate the position that I have here: **regardless of whether or not change is happening or what is causing it, it is easier and more efficient just to adapt to it. ** That’s the human way. And it’s much more certain than playing God and trying to deliberately change the climate, even in a favorable way.
No one likes to face up to the fact that certain actions they engage in may be harmful to others. …
We’re not expected to know or even make decisions based on very remote (distant from our current action) potential consequences of our actions.

The fact that I’m an American taxpayer or that I support a certain local politician does not so implicate me in the wrongdoings of the government or that politician’s party years down the road that I must seek to move to a different country (or stop paying taxes), or withdraw support for that civic official.

So, too, will I not regret staying up after dark and using lights, computers, AC, a refrigerator, etc.

This is why the market is a brilliant thing. As scarcity and negative impacts of things increase, the price mechanism will drive us to alternatives. I have invested heavily in energy and waste reduction (and modified behavior to suit) because it made economic sense to do so.

When you add all this to the Sixth factor (to continue the list above), that is:
Governmental and economic policies are:
— even more uncertain
— have even more diversity of opinion
— higher uncertainty of results
— high risk of failure (many failures already)
— highly uncertain degrees of success
— high probability of significant unintended consequences
— high costs (with attendant sacrifices in other areas that could lead to more poverty, less ability to address other issues, etc)
— very high difficulty of generating consensus
— very high difficulty of getting the uniform global action required
— very high likelihood of diminished economic output, which could dramatically reduce our ability to adapt to climatic changes or assist poorer countries in doing so
— very high likelihood that this issue will steal attention, remediation, money, etc. from dealing with more pressing environmental and social issues, even influencing elections to overshadow greater problems (like abortion, war, poverty, more immediate environmental problems, health, jobs, etc)

So I guess I’m in line with your husband on this: it’s an issue stealing far too much attention for far too much uncertainty. We should just plan to adapt. Let the market drive change in behavior and we will adapt naturally as best as we can.

And there’s really no validity to bringing the Church into this as if the Church is going to tell us all that we are bound to sign up for some particular government policies attempting to deal with climate change.
 
This sort of exposition goes to great lengths to focus on where global warming is not, while ignoring where global warming is. The oceans have vastly more mass (and specific heat, if you know what that means) than all the atmosphere. Can you truthfully claim this “pause” has applied to the ocean heat too?
Note Theo’s tactic.
Chris and Leaf,
the true science deniers here.

See my other thread on WSJ article, where it references NOAA acknowledging if the pause lasted 15 years, then it would invalidate the climate-change models upon which policy was being built.

Admitting the past crop of models failed doesn’t mean you have to give up and go home, just that you should stop the alarmism and focus on the science. Eventually we will have models that pass the scientific method.
 
Chris and Leaf,
the true science deniers here.

See my other thread on WSJ article, where it references NOAA acknowledging if the pause lasted 15 years, then it would invalidate the climate-change models upon which policy was being built.

Admitting the past crop of models failed doesn’t mean you have to give up and go home, just that you should stop the alarmism and focus on the science. Eventually we will have models that pass the scientific method.
Well said. 👍👍
 
Chris and Leaf,
the true science deniers here.

See my other thread on WSJ article, where it references NOAA acknowledging if the pause lasted 15 years, then it would invalidate the climate-change models upon which policy was being built.
Since the argument you put forth from data has failed, I guess it is time to turn to argument from authority. Well, I can quote more authorities that refute what your authorities say.
 
So with you it’s either we can only look at the past 17 years, or we have to look back to ??? (let me guess) the medieval warming period (or any other warming period that was not caused by SUVs :).

No sensible in between in which real science can be done to come up with real conclusions relevant to the present warming.

Watts, a weather man, admittedly NOT a climate scientist, has been discredited for his gross deceptions and nonsense pseudo-climate science by mainstream climate scientists, so I’d advise not going to his page or using his graphs meant to deceive the unwary. see desmogblog.com/anthony-watts
 
…Governmental and economic policies are:,
— very high likelihood that this issue will steal attention, remediation, money, etc. from dealing with more pressing environmental and social issues…
Then here’s an idea we should get the gov to mitigate climate change by becoming energy/resource efficient/conservative, reduce-reuse-recycle, go onto alt energy. That way it will be saving $billions upon billions, which it can then use for other environmental and social problems.
 
So with you it’s either we can only look at the past 17 years, or we have to look back to ??? (let me guess) the medieval warming period (or any other warming period that was not caused by SUVs :).

No sensible in between in which real science can be done to come up with real conclusions relevant to the present warming.

Watts, a weather man, admittedly NOT a climate scientist, has been discredited for his gross deceptions and nonsense pseudo-climate science by mainstream climate scientists, so I’d advise not going to his page or using his graphs meant to deceive the unwary. see desmogblog.com/anthony-watts
Your effort at deflection is lame
The 17 yrs are relevant because they are a statistically significant deviation from the IPCC model, that’s it.
If the IPCC had used different models, it would require a different deviation to fail the scientific method.
Did you read my post on the scientific method? It can’t be ignored, no matter how compelling your story is.
Then here’s an idea we should get the gov to mitigate climate change by becoming energy/resource efficient/conservative, reduce-reuse-recycle, go onto alt energy. That way it will be saving $billions upon billions, which it can then use for other environmental and social problems.
I’m all for increased efficiencies, and recycling, but don’t demand it on the back of unproven AGW story. Subsidies should go to actual R&D, not solar implementation.
 
Your effort at deflection is lame
The 17 yrs are relevant because they are a statistically significant deviation from the IPCC model, that’s it.
You are wrong on that, and if you say 17 yrs is enough you don’t know squat about climate science.

I, too, didn’t know and had to find out the hard way. For years before 1995 (when the first studies reached .05 on the null re AGW) I was very frustrated with climate scientists not making strong claims about AGW, writing such things as “if global warming is proven…”

I was even thinking what a bunch of #%$&%*# namby-pamby sissies. Maybe they’re bought out by the oil industry.

Only later I came to understand that it takes decades, some 30 years or so to really establish a trend.

Aside from warming continuing (but a large portion being taken up by deeper oceans), there is NO COOLING trend at all, and even if their were it would take 30 years of cooling and cooling back to the pre-70s level to definitively say there is no global warming.

You have to understand first off, a 1000 years for a mortal man is like a blink of God’s (or a geologist’s) eye. And that is why climate scientists are quite alarmed at this current warming…bec it is exceedingly rapid, magnitudes of order more rapid than in the past warmings when large chunks of life died out. Actually there is no analog from the past for this. However, they do know that extremely slow warmings, such as during the Eocene optimum over many millions of years, not much harm was done. However, during the PETM and end-Permian over 10,000s to 200,000 of years a tremendous loss of species and life occurred. Now we’re doing the same but over several 100s of years – by extracting fossil fuels and burning them lickity-split (in geological timeframe terms).

And you guys want to risk it all over … what was it?? World view? Ideology? Anti-Christian ideology? Or maybe jobs in or heavy investments in fossil fuels??

Even then, there is a huge Why that hangs in the air unanswered.
 
You are wrong on that, and if you say 17 yrs is enough you don’t know squat about climate science.
Lynn discuss this with a friend who knows statistics. The models themselves dictated when they were passing or failing the scientific method. I fully expect the new models will profess less certainty and have a wider margin of error. But sadly, this will not support the alarm-ism many seem to favor.
I, too, didn’t know and had to find out the hard way. For years before 1995 (when the first studies reached .05 on the null re AGW) I was very frustrated with climate scientists not making strong claims about AGW, writing such things as “if global warming is proven…”
I was even thinking what a bunch of #%$&%*# namby-pamby sissies. Maybe they’re bought out by the oil industry.
Only later I came to understand that it takes decades, some 30 years or so to really establish a trend.
Your attitude is very dangerous. Instead of letting science inform you, you have your preconceptions and don’t seem willing to listen to what the science is saying. You are now ignoring the trend is not supporting your position.
Aside from warming continuing (but a large portion being taken up by deeper oceans), there is NO COOLING trend at all, and even if their were it would take 30 years of cooling and cooling back to the pre-70s level to definitively say there is no global warming.
Please stop with your straman! I’ve never said it’s cooling. I also expect the warming trend to continue. The question to be resolved is whether it’s driven by natural variation or man. New models that pass the scientific method are required for that.
You have to understand first off, a 1000 years for a mortal man is like a blink of God’s (or a geologist’s) eye. And that is why climate scientists are quite alarmed at this current warming…bec it is exceedingly rapid, magnitudes of order more rapid than in the past warmings when large chunks of life died out. Actually there is no analog from the past for this. However, they do know that extremely slow warmings, such as during the Eocene optimum over many millions of years, not much harm was done. However, during the PETM and end-Permian over 10,000s to 200,000 of years a tremendous loss of species and life occurred. Now we’re doing the same but over several 100s of years – by extracting fossil fuels and burning them lickity-split (in geological timeframe terms).
More fear mongering on your part. Climate scientists are ascribing more and more of the warming to natural variation. Also, we really don’t know it is unprecedented, that’s speculation based on projections from very limited data.
And you guys want to risk it all over … what was it?? World view? Ideology? Anti-Christian ideology? Or maybe jobs in or heavy investments in fossil fuels??
Even then, there is a huge Why that hangs in the air unanswered.
And que - MORE FEAR MONGERING!
I’m 100% behind increased inefficiencies, I even drive a Prius.
I would stop wasting the millions of tax dollars on solar panel installation and put it to universities for real R&D on energy solutions. Did you know we’ve had molten salt nuclear plants in development for 60 years? It’s significantly safer than any nuclear plant in production.
 
Lynn discuss this with a friend who knows statistics.
I already have … with real climate scientist, not amateur armchair “scientists.” And I would suggest you do the same. Why bring up things here that I consider patently wrong, when you can consult real climate scientists who will arbitrate and tell who is right. I could be wrong on some things. It would really be best that you take your arguments to real climate scientists who will explain what part of your ideas are right and what part are wrong, and why.

I find climate scientists to be very gracious and helpful. I even had one “on email call” during a presentation I made, so he could field questions that the audience asked. They are just great people.
 
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