Global Warming

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So which is it folks? More ice, less ice, more/less snow, hotter/colder, decay…,.d…d.a…s//// &dfa… :hypno:
The answer is either “All of the above.”

Or, more accurately…“Whatever gets people to pay top dollar for GE’s “green” product line.”

You see, when your business model is based on creating panic, the best thing to do is convince everyone that everything is a reason for panic.
 
I see.

There you have it folks.
Global Warming causes more snowfall and ice.

But something else I really love in this answer…“Depending on which increase dominates, the early result could be either an overall decay or an overall growth of the ice sheets

So they are claiming global warming.
Then they claim global warming causes global cooling (short term).
And then they are claiming to not know if the global warming will continue or not after that.
A common misconception about global warming is that it will cause all locations to experience higher temperatures, but global warming actually refers to an increase in the average global temperature.
 
A common misconception about global warming is that it will cause all locations to experience higher temperatures, but global warming actually refers to an increase in the average global temperature.
I have provided in post #622 links to the Global mean monthly, annual and seasonal land-ocean temperature index, 1880-present, updated through most recent month provided by NASA’s Goddard research center which according to that data shows a trend in the global mean temperature to have risen since 1880. I also suggested the possibility that we assume, as far fetched as it is, that perhaps we can give consideration to the accuracy of global temperature measurement from 1880 through 1950 as compared against 1951 through 2008 data. For the sake of argument lets assume it is accurate enough for government work.

For the fourth time, where is the scientifically verified study indicating that the rise in global temperature is man’s doing?

Another consideration: In what way can it be hypothesized that the temperature will continue to rise throughout the next 130 years? A similar problem to solve would be that I recorded that it took me 30 minutes to drive to town from the farm. My second trip I recorded it took 40 minutes. Given that data, how long will my third trip take?
 
I see.

There you have it folks.
Global Warming causes more snowfall and ice.

But something else I really love in this answer…“Depending on which increase dominates, the early result could be either an overall decay or an overall growth of the ice sheets

So they are claiming global warming.
Then they claim global warming causes global cooling (short term).
And then they are claiming to not know if the global warming will continue or not after that.
Wait WHAT? where in the world do you get that from what I posted? Or even the link included!? I mean seriously I read what I posted and the link included several times over and I have NO idea where you got that from. What they are saying is not that global warming causes short term global cooling. It is saying it causes melting and more ocean to exposed to the atmosphere. And warmer air holds more moisture water vapor then cold air, so you would get more evaporation from the oceans increasing the amount of precipation snowfall It says absolutely NOTHING about this being due to some sort of regional cooling do to global warming…
arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/global.sea.ice.area.pdf
Anyway here is another link…

Also it should be noted they are talking about EARLY results not the long terms over all results.
 
For the fourth time, where is the scientifically verified study indicating that the rise in global temperature is man’s doing?
Please don’t get frustrated with me for not having already addressed a question you posed earlier as I have just recently entered this discussion.

From the EPA:
Since pre-industrial times, atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), and nitrous oxide (N2O) have climbed by over 36 percent, 148 percent, and 18 percent, respectively (see the Recent Atmospheric Change page on EPA’s Climate Change site for more details). Greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere have varied historically as a result of many natural processes (e.g., volcanic activity, changes in temperature, etc). However, since the Industrial Revolution, humans have added a significant amount of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere primarily by burning fossil fuels, cutting down forests, and other activities. Scientists have confirmed that the recent increase in atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations is primarily due to human activity.
source

The rising concentrations of these gases enhances the greenhouse effect, resulting in an increase in the average global temperature.
Another consideration: In what way can it be hypothesized that the temperature will continue to rise throughout the next 130 years?
Also from the EPA:
According to several recent studies, even if the composition of today’s atmosphere was fixed (which would imply a dramatic reduction in current emissions), surface air temperatures would continue to warm (by up to 1.6ºF or 0.9 ºC); see the “constant CO2” line in Figure 1 (IPCC, 2007). The studies suggest that a portion of the warming associated with past human activity has not yet been realized due to heat being stored in the ocean, and that the Earth is committed to continued warming. In addition, many of the greenhouse gases that have already been emitted remain in the atmosphere for decades or longer, and will continue to contribute to warming for their duration. For more information, see the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s (NOAA) GFDL fact sheet: Global Warming Commitment: Temperatures Would Rise Even With No Additional Greenhouse Gas Increases (PDF, 1 pp., 85 KB, About PDF). Also see this research update from NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS): Earth’s Energy Out of Balance as well as the article “The Earth’s Big Heat Bucket” from NASA’s Earth Observatory.
source
 
Ok time for my post on how we know the carbon dioxide rise is actually due to humans and not due to something natural like volcanos.

First quite simply we know we have produced enough c02 to raise the levels to about 500 ppm they have not reached that level because the oceans and terrestrial biosphere can absorb some the c02 we produce. However the fact that we produce it faster then the ocean and biosphere can absorb it explains the increase.

Course that isn;t the only reasoning we use. We can also measure carbon isotopes realclimate.org/index.php?p=83 but anyway some copying and pasting from this link realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do-we-know-that-recent-cosub2sub-increases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/

**CO2 produced from burning fossil fuels or burning forests has quite a different isotopic composition from CO2 in the atmosphere. This is because plants have a preference for the lighter isotopes (12C vs. 13C); thus they have lower 13C/12C ratios. Since fossil fuels are ultimately derived from ancient plants, plants and fossil fuels all have roughly the same 13C/12C ratio – about 2% lower than that of the atmosphere. As CO2 from these materials is released into, and mixes with, the atmosphere, the average 13C/12C ratio of the atmosphere decreases.

Isotope geochemists have developed time series of variations in the 14C and 13C concentrations of atmospheric CO2. One of the methods used is to measure the 13C/12C in tree rings, and use this to infer those same ratios in atmospheric CO2. This works because during photosynthesis, trees take up carbon from the atmosphere and lay this carbon down as plant organic material in the form of rings, providing a snapshot of the atmospheric composition of that time. If the ratio of 13C/12C in atmospheric CO2 goes up or down, so does the 13C/12C of the tree rings. This isn’t to say that the tree rings have the same isotopic composition as the atmosphere – as noted above, plants have a preference for the lighter isotopes, but as long as that preference doesn’t change much, the tree-ring changes wiil track the atmospheric changes.

Sequences of annual tree rings going back thousands of years have now been analyzed for their 13C/12C ratios. Because the age of each ring is precisely known** we can make a graph of the atmospheric 13C/12C ratio vs. time. What is found is at no time in the last 10,000 years are the 13C/12C ratios in the atmosphere as low as they are today. Furthermore, the 13C/12C ratios begin to decline dramatically just as the CO2 starts to increase — around 1850 AD. This is exactly what we expect if the increased CO2 is in fact due to fossil fuel burning. Furthermore, we can trace the absorption of CO2 into the ocean by measuring the 13C/12C ratio of surface ocean waters. While the data are not as complete as the tree ring data (we have only been making these measurements for a few decades) we observe what is expected: the surface ocean 13C/12C is decreasing. Measurements of 13C/12C on corals and sponges — whose carbonate shells reflect the ocean chemistry just as tree rings record the atmospheric chemistry — show that this decline began about the same time as in the atmosphere; that is, when human CO2 production began to accelerate in earnest.***

In addition to the data from tree rings, there are also of measurements of the 13C/12C ratio in the CO2 trapped in ice cores. The tree ring and ice core data both show that the total change in the 13C/12C ratio of the atmosphere since 1850 is about 0.15%. This sounds very small but is actually very large relative to natural variability. The results show that the full glacial-to-interglacial change in 13C/12C of the atmosphere — which took many thousand years — was about 0.03%, or about 5 times less than that observed in the last 150 years**

this is a good link to look at too. realclimate.org/index.php?p=160

Next post of course will be about how we know it is even a greenhouse effect causing the warming? How do we know for instance it isn;t solar forcing?
 
First quite simply we know we have produced enough c02 to raise the levels to about 500 ppm they have not reached that level because the oceans and terrestrial biosphere can absorb some the c02 we produce.
You reminded me of a positive feedback cycle:

The oceans serve as carbon sinks in that they absorb considerable amounts of CO2. As the planet warms, the ocean temperatures rise as well. Because gasses dissolve less readily in warm water than in cold, the dissolved CO2 is released into the atmosphere, thereby accelerating the process.
 
You reminded me of a positive feedback cycle:

The oceans serve as carbon sinks in that they absorb considerable amounts of CO2. As the planet warms, the ocean temperatures rise as well. Because gasses dissolve less readily in warm water than in cold, the dissolved CO2 is released into the atmosphere, thereby accelerating the process.
Yep and that reminds me too… climateprogress.org/2007/10/22/big-news-the-ocean-carbon-sink-is-saturating/ realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/11/is-the-ocean-carbon-sink-sinking/

So it seems the oceans are starting to absorb less of our c02.
 
Where did you get the info that man created global warming? The UN sciientists only.The real scientists without their new world order agenda are now telling the truth. Sure, you’ll get your one world governemnt, but only for seven years. Enjoy your time because it won’t last long. 31,000 scientists signed a petition that global warming is casued by humans.
 
Please don’t get frustrated with me for not having already addressed a question you posed earlier as I have just recently entered this discussion.

From the EPA:

source

The rising concentrations of these gases enhances the greenhouse effect, resulting in an increase in the average global temperature.

Also from the EPA:

source
From the EPA quote you drew from -

“Since pre-industrial times, atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), and nitrous oxide (N2O) have climbed by over 36 percent, 148 percent, and 18 percent, respectively (see the Recent Atmospheric Change page on EPA’s Climate Change site for more details). Greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere have varied historically as a result of many natural processes (e.g., volcanic activity, changes in temperature, etc).”

How,for goodness sake,can “changes in temperature” go from being an effect to a natural cause/process ?.If you can get that to make sense then you can get the most ridiculous things to make sense and please do not bother trying to spin that stuff into something meaningful.

What they are doing is taking enormous shortcuts in the already drawn conclusion that carbon dioxide levels are causing temperature variations such as global warming without consideration of anything else or paying lip service to natural/astronomical (name removed by moderator)uts.There is a great injustice to all this and by people who mean well but are creating a mess in the process.

The greatest temperature change,as everyone here well knows,is seasonal variations in temperature due to a combination of daily and annual motions of the Earth.Scientists do not know how these motions combine to produce the summer/winter variations and if they cannot figure the seasons out they do not stand a chance with any long term variations such as ice ages or if global warming has an astronomical or human origin.
 
A common misconception about global warming is that it will cause all locations to experience higher temperatures, but global warming actually refers to an increase in the average global temperature.
Right. But it is not a misconception.
This is tit for tat.
Every article link in this thread in which scientists point out some specific event to lay claim to global warming is now irrelevent. After all, we are speaking of averages.
A hot spot here and there is perfectly acceptable.

So I can make the demand right now based on this.
From here on, NEVER use any type of anomoly to back up this propaganda.

After all, you are speaking in averages.
Get real data, not conjecture and supposition.
 
I have provided in post #622 links to the Global mean monthly, annual and seasonal land-ocean temperature index, 1880-present, updated through most recent month provided by NASA’s Goddard research center which according to that data shows a trend in the global mean temperature to have risen since 1880.
And I have provided plenty of reason to doubt the data.

Global warming is measured in tenths of a degree C and as a global average.
So how did they come by the accuracy in the 1800’s?
Using what instrumentation?
In what locations to insure a ‘global average’?
How do we compensate for the lack of data before 1850?

Come on guys. You want us to believe the data but you won’t answer basic questions about it.
Further, it seems that people are now beginning to quote historical posts within this thread. That is great. It means people are actually reading the thread.
However, reposting information that has already been answered is intellectually dishonest.
Reading and referencing only the posts you agree with and leaving the rest out does however relate to something I have seen common among those that believe in Global Warming. A tendency to leave out significant information in order to back up their preconceived notions.
 
How,for goodness sake,can “changes in temperature” go from being an effect to a natural cause/process ?
I’m sorry, can you rephrase your question?
The greatest temperature change,as everyone here well knows,is seasonal variations in temperature due to a combination of daily and annual motions of the Earth.Scientists do not know how these motions combine to produce the summer/winter variations and if they cannot figure the seasons out they do not stand a chance with any long term variations such as ice ages or if global warming has an astronomical or human origin.
Argument from incredulity
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vz71:
Right. But it is not a misconception.
This is tit for tat.
Every article link in this thread in which scientists point out some specific event to lay claim to global warming is now irrelevent. After all, we are speaking of averages.
A hot spot here and there is perfectly acceptable.

So I can make the demand right now based on this.
From here on, NEVER use any type of anomoly to back up this propaganda.

After all, you are speaking in averages.
Get real data, not conjecture and supposition.
Um…okay

You have simply reiterated the importance of analyzing changes in average global temperature, something I (and hopefully others) have already been aware of.
 
Um…okay

You have simply reiterated the importance of analyzing changes in average global temperature, something I (and hopefully others) have already been aware of.
Read through the history of this thread and I am sure you will be able to understand my frustration.
 
I believe it to be a massive deception, a political hoax, and a pseudo religion.
 
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