Global Warming

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GodLovesTheSpek said:
Sure, collect that data and use the data wisely but until we have the ability to effectively use the earth below two miles beneath the crust (where pressure and temperature are very high and a challenge to explore) and seven miles to ocean bottom where pressure would crush humans to paper thin they’re just not reasonable resources of use at the present time. There’s a lot to discover and use in this old earth but at the present time we can only effectively use the very thin skin we have before us. I suspect that we are unlikely to find topsoil in any of those harsh environments. Until the time comes that we can delve deeper than that skin we must make the best of what we have – even if that means preserving that skin for the future generations that may help up dig deeper into the earth and utilize it.
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Twenty years or thirty years ago or so, it was contended that the Earth could not provide enough food. Now, food production is no longer an issue. There IS a problem with distribution of food in politically unstable regions, such as Somalia. But that is a political problem, not a physical problem.

The Club of Rome report made another round of Malthusian predictions that fell apart.

The only limitations to production of food, energy and other necessities are limitations imposed by our imagination and technology. For example, ten years ago it was difficult to extract natural gas from certain kinds of tight shale; today it is routine.

You may recall that in 1945, Admiral Leahy declared that an atomic bomb was impossible and he knew because he was an expert.

The point is that new things are being invented all the time … it’s just that some of us are not inventors and can’t see ahead. Just because I, personally, cannot see what technology lies ahead does not give me license from stopping everyone else from making technological progress.

And there are even new advances in nuclear energy being invented all the time.
 
Hopefully I will be permitted to continue to post after this, but I found these … there was one that was definitely in error [which I removed] and cannot vouch for the others … hopefully at least one is accurate:thumbsup:

Hope you enjoy them:

“Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances.” — Dr. Lee DeForest, “Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television.”

“The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives.” - - Admiral William Leahy , US Atomic Bomb Project

“There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom.” — Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923

“Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.” — Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949

“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers . ” — Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

“I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won’t last out the year.” — The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957

“But what is it good for?” — Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.

“640K ought to be enough for anybody.” — Bill Gates, 1981

This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us,” — Western Union internal memo, 1876.

“The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?” — David Sarnoff’s associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.

“The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a ‘C,’ the idea must be feasible,” — A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith’s paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)

“I’m just glad it’ll be Clark Gable who’s falling on his face and not Gary Cooper,” — Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in “Gone With The Wind.”

“A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make,” — Response to Debbi Fields’ idea of starting Mrs. Fields’ Cookies.

“We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out,” — Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.

“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible,” — Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.

“If I had thought about it, I wouldn’t have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can’t do this,” - - Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M “Post-It” Notepads .

“Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You’re crazy,” — Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859.

“Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.” - - Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University , 1929.

“Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value,” — Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre , France .

“The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required” — Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University

“I don’t know what use any one could find for a machine that would make copies of documents. It certainly couldn’t be a feasible business by itself.” — the head of IBM, refusing to back the idea, forcing the inventor to found Xerox.

“Louis Pasteur’s theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.” — Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872

“The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon,” — Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.

And last but not least…

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.” — Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977

You may find a few others that may also be inauthentic. But they are fun to read as they illustrate that even the best of cannot see ahead.

But folks who may be skeptical about the prospects for the future of mankind should research each one; the exercise may prove … frustrating … humorous … enlightening … and maybe serve to demonstrate why we should not take predictions of doom and gloom so seriously.
 
Just because we can doesn’t mean we should. If we make the most of what we do have practically available to the USA and other countries and it is enough to sustain the world, why not make the most and best of it rather than promote a scorched earth policy full of promise but (as of yet) no real impact. Continue the investigation and data gathering for possible future need but we still need to live in a world with rainforests, parks free of PCB, clean water and air. China is emerging as another hotspot of unbridled industrializtion with global contamination to match the rampant consumerism in the USA and other other countries which fuels this environmental disaster in the making. The old Soviet Union still suffers from their old policies and many places in the USA are still tainted and there is still a fight as to who or what has the responsibility to clean up the mess – because of money. The other countries are not so concientious.
 
Famous quotes from history. Big deal. History is full of them. So they were wrong. Maybe they should have been right.

We now have the atom bomb along with the Cold War, waste of money and cleanup due to detonation and and dismantling.

We now have two pound computers in many homes with unbridled access to adult and child pornography.

We now have aircraft delivering laser guided bombs to kill the innocent and the guilty.

We now have burnt oil dumping tons of carbon waste into the atmosphere and liquid seeping into water.

We now have enough computer memory to process highly detailed pornographic images.

People carry cellphones into Mass with distracting ringers and checking text messages right after receiving the host.

Misapplication of “progress” has caused many of the world’s evils and evils we have yet to experience.

One thing has been fortold and is that it will get much worse. Man alone does not have the capability to save himself.
 
Al_Masetti said:
Surely you can come up with a better appeal to authority and expertise than seeking advice from the financial community!!

My goodness! Multi-trillion dollar meltdown! Sub prime mortgages. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Barney Frank and his rules and regulations. The SEC and all the important rules they abandoned leading to the present instability.

[yeah, yeah, I know “don’t call you surely”.]

AND besides, I was talking about the tiny teeny numbers of people who have been ramrodding the IPCC report through without having to answer for the report’s shortcomings.

Read these two: [they are about IPCC, …

… and NOT about the 31000:]

epw.senate.gov/public/index.c…4-B364B623ADA3

thecanadiansentinel.blogspot…inst-ipcc.html

And the point is not about the 31000; the point is that IPCC has been working with a very tiny cast of insiders which has been the point by Landsea and others.

Interested folks should read those two links.

Very important.
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The point I was trying to make basically is expertise matters. And skeptics post these lists full of so called scientists that desent on the concensus on global warming. Yet when you actually look at the lists you find that they are full of people who aren;t even experts in climate science or related fields. And for many of the few that are you will find that much of their work has been pretty throughly debunked or at least highly questioned. I can;t see those two links though. But I don;t think the IPCC is perfect myself. Personally I see the major problem with it or maybe just one is the amount of time it takes to complete reports. And the fact that the cut off for data is apparently two years before the actually report. So it seems that by the time the reports actually come out they can already be out of date! Course I donlt think the IPCC is useless far from it. But it would be nice to some of those kind of reports a little faster.
 
As for more resources deeper in the crust. Yeah there probably is. But just because they are there…doesn;t neccesarily mean they will be economical or enviromentally sound to go get. And certain things like oil and coal the fossil fuels basically well we need to get off those as soon as possible un to something more sustainable…and less enviromentally damaging and climate changing…So even if we found unlimited quantities of those I donlt think we should call it a day and say ok unlimited coal and oil our energy needs are met!
 
Catholic Response to Global Warming

I’ve started a new thread with some great resources… invite your (name removed by moderator)ut! 🙂
 
4elise said:
Catholic Response to Global Warming

I’ve started a new thread with some great resources… invite your (name removed by moderator)ut! 🙂
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There are thousands of threads out there.
How about a link to help us find the way?
 
Calliso said:
As for more resources deeper in the crust. Yeah there probably is. But just because they are there…doesn;t neccesarily mean they will be economical or enviromentally sound to go get. And certain things like oil and coal the fossil fuels basically well we need to get off those as soon as possible un to something more sustainable…and less enviromentally damaging and climate changing…So even if we found unlimited quantities of those I donlt think we should call it a day and say ok unlimited coal and oil our energy needs are met!
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Calliso said:
As for more resources deeper in the crust. Yeah there probably is. But just because they are there…doesn;t neccesarily mean they will be economical or enviromentally sound to go get. And certain things like oil and coal the fossil fuels basically well we need to get off those as soon as possible un to something more sustainable…and less enviromentally damaging and climate changing…So even if we found unlimited quantities of those I donlt think we should call it a day and say ok unlimited coal and oil our energy needs are met!
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There is no way any one of us can know any of that stuff.

No matter how good your intentions may be or how strong your desire might be to do a good job. These decisions might seem easy to make, but they are, in fact, not.

What we have seen in the global warming issue, is that advocates have used seriously flawed computer models [with NO explanation of major revisions, such as dropping the "Hockey Stick] AND using bad data to insert into the models Visit www.surfacestations.org for a highly detailed explanation ].

The decisions on whether to choose one resource versus another are made on a continuous basis by people working in the field. The costs are relative based on all of the many factors that affect each resource and each source location and each destination location and the various transportation alternatives available at any given moment. There are thousands upon thousands of people calculating these factors on a continuous basis.

These decisions are not made by (and cannot be made by) one person or even a small group of persons working with the best computers and even with the best of intentions] … because the decisions are too complex.

There are just too many factors. And they change continuously.

That’s the problem with folks who have no actual practical experience working in the field.

And when well-meaning folks work their way into the levers of political power, they generally make terrible and disruptive decisions. It may make them feel good, but it doesn’t actually accomplish anything beneficial.

It is important for folks to consider the general nature of undesired secondary effects (and tertiary effects). They are the “unknown unknowns” … folks who have been around long enough have had a lot of experience with them.

The thing is that if you are in the private sector, the undesirable effects are self-limiting.

When the government gets involved, the undesirable effects have no limits … so when bankruptcies would normally be self-limiting, for example, … when the Securities and Exchange Commission got involved they changed the rules [uptick rule, mark to market, etc plus the Freddie Mac/ Fannie Mae forced mortgage rules] and the result was unlimited damage to the financial markets.

Economic decisions are so complex that it is difficult for almost everyone to appreciate it.

Read this; it only takes a few minutes … but it illustrates how even a simple pencil is an economically complex object to make.

geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7695/PENCIL.HTM

Also, next time you visit a supermarket, try to visualize what might be involved in supplying just one of the food items.

Look at a banana. What decisions are needed to produce and deliver a banana to the supermarket.
 
these are the ole bits about stupid predictions…dont forget…Edison was sent home for being a moron,No major league team wanted to buy DiMaggio because he had bad knees,etc etc…but some of the above were fair at the time…computers when first invented were huge,I used to work in a factory that had them…like refrigerators they were…since the auto was not invented at the time…fuel for them seemed kinder a waste…the earth warming nonsense is just that…but with an evil purpose.these are the same folks who warned us that at midnite 2,000 all of the worlds computers would go bonkers.I still have in my collection an ominuous report by cbs radio that very eve.intoning that some ‘30,000 body bags have been delivered to madison square garden…in anticipation of massive food riots in nycity’ etc etc…now its the swine flu…by keeping a people off balance with constant shrieks of hysteria of non-existent dangers…the public…like Pavlovs mutts can be brainwashed into believing anything. check the recent movies in comparison to the ones made before the 1970s…in those days there were long takes…scenes where the camera did not move…now its flick,flick ,flick, what this does is confuse the mind so that one cant think in a logistical sequence…thus subliminal seduction is easy…like this latest joke…elect me and I will bring the troops home…and since he was elected has sent some 50,000 troops to Afgan…for yet another no win war…hooray for the military-industrial complex as they skip over the bodies of our brave men and women to the bank! I hope as I go to the local store for my daily rations…carrying this stick over my shoulders that support two pails for the groceries…I hope and pray our rulers nod in an approving way to me as they drive by in their needed limo…all the best…enjoy while we can still disagree and not get that 3 am knock on the door by the thought police…oops…what was that…
 
Al_Masetti said:
There is no way any one of us can know any of that stuff.

No matter how good your intentions may be or how strong your desire might be to do a good job. These decisions might seem easy to make, but they are, in fact, not.

What we have seen in the global warming issue, is that advocates have used seriously flawed computer models [with NO explanation of major revisions, such as dropping the "Hockey Stick] AND using bad data to insert into the models Visit www.surfacestations.org for a highly detailed explanation ].

The decisions on whether to choose one resource versus another are made on a continuous basis by people working in the field. The costs are relative based on all of the many factors that affect each resource and each source location and each destination location and the various transportation alternatives available at any given moment. There are thousands upon thousands of people calculating these factors on a continuous basis.

These decisions are not made by (and cannot be made by) one person or even a small group of persons working with the best computers and even with the best of intentions] … because the decisions are too complex.

There are just too many factors. And they change continuously.

That’s the problem with folks who have no actual practical experience working in the field.

And when well-meaning folks work their way into the levers of political power, they generally make terrible and disruptive decisions. It may make them feel good, but it doesn’t actually accomplish anything beneficial.

It is important for folks to consider the general nature of undesired secondary effects (and tertiary effects). They are the “unknown unknowns” … folks who have been around long enough have had a lot of experience with them.

The thing is that if you are in the private sector, the undesirable effects are self-limiting.

When the government gets involved, the undesirable effects have no limits … so when bankruptcies would normally be self-limiting, for example, … when the Securities and Exchange Commission got involved they changed the rules [uptick rule, mark to market, etc plus the Freddie Mac/ Fannie Mae forced mortgage rules] and the result was unlimited damage to the financial markets.

Economic decisions are so complex that it is difficult for almost everyone to appreciate it.

Read this; it only takes a few minutes … but it illustrates how even a simple pencil is an economically complex object to make.

geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7695/PENCIL.HTM

Also, next time you visit a supermarket, try to visualize what might be involved in supplying just one of the food items.

Look at a banana. What decisions are needed to produce and deliver a banana to the supermarket.
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On the issue of computer models…well while I agree with you that they are not perfect I would disagree they are majorly flawed. And they have come a long way over the years. But I donlt think I am ever going to convince you of that. As for surfacestations I have repeatedly showed stuff that shows the idea that that site proves the surface temperature record is bunk just isn;t true. And even if it did…there is far more then the surface temperature record to go by. But once again I donlt think I am going to convince you here either. About the hockey stick thing…I didn;t see anything about that on the surface stations site on that. However I did find this claim opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009625 which claims that the hockey stick wasn;t in the latest IPCC report. ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-chapter6.pdf scroll down to about page 35. It’s there I can only think the fact that there had now been several reconstructions by that time might have confused the WSJ…but then again a little further reading should have clarified. *really I bet whoever wrote that opinion piece at best skimmed the paleoclimate report if he looked at it at all.

And I realize it;s a complex situation. I just donlt think it;s complex equals we should do nothing. Just that we should be careful. I also feel from the reading I have done…that the longer we wait to do anything the harder and more complex the problem gets to solve.

And I still stand by my conviction that unlimited oil and coal wouldn;t be a good thing. As much as I would like it to be.
 
Oscarthecat said:
Here’s some new marketing lingo from the environmental movement- coming soon on an NBC affiliate near you…

nytimes.com/2009/05/02/us/politics/02enviro.html?_r=2
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And seems not all agree with this. climateprogress.org/2009/05/03/messaging-ecoamerica-global-warming-pollution/#more-6273

Personally I think detoriating atmosphere is a ****** term myself.

But really I have learned it doesn;t matter what terms we use the deniers will whine about whatever term we use.
 
It is very interesting that Al Gore was worth $2million before his global warming campaign. He is now worth $100million. Citizens to Action group Just Matters Just Faith really degrades the wealthy but almost puts Al Gore above the Pope. Some do put Al Gore above the Pope. Yes, these are fellow Catholics. How do I know? I was in the class and took good notes.
 
Calliso said:
And I realize it;s a complex situation. I just donlt think it;s complex equals we should do nothing. Just that we should be careful. I also feel from the reading I have done…that the longer we wait to do anything the harder and more complex the problem gets to solve.
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👍 I certainly agree. Waiting just doesn’t seem to be prudent!
 
Read Lomborg on how and why “doing something” particularly the current proposals is worse than doing nothing.

Lomborg is excellent.

Check his BookTV appearance discussing his latest book.
 
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