Glory and Praise Hymnal

[ethelzguy]

Well, obviously the music is well enough received by those in charge, as not only is G&P here to stay, much of it has been incorporated into the Gather hymnal.

While some see it as garbage, many others see it as spiritual and uplifting.

And yes, I’ve seen the many posts and read the links as to how “this Bishop”, “that Cardinal”, or “some other Pope” has declared certain musics to be “preferable”. But that doesn’t mean that anything not under the “preferable” umbrella is banished or inappropriate. That individual personally sees it as preferable, period.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal

But the Pope speaks from a frame of reference of having been not only the Pope for the past three years, but as a Cardinal, in Rome, for at least the past 3 decades.

When do you think the Pope sat in a a pew of a Mass at a little American Parish like mine? Do you think he’d expect to hear the classical Cathedral Music that he’s been accustom to for more than half his life, or would he understand the cultural difference between small town America and the Vatican? I think he’d understand. He sure seemed to during his recent visit to the US.

Of course the SLJ hymns don’t sound anything like the Fifth Dimension, nor any of the other derogatory terms you like to use against them.

I wouldn’t want to see Glory and Praise Hymns used at a Cathedral, but it fits well in smaller parishes where the people
in the pews are actually sing.

I knew the article the OP posted, wouldn’t go by without great wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Trads of this forum.

Jim

Well he certainly had to endure a lot of the stuff that we have to put up with during the DC Mass. Jim, the US is not necessarily the bastion of Sacred Music. When he celebrated Mass at St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna, the Holy Father extolled the beauty of the music and how it added to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Not a word was said about the mish-mash that was performed in DC. While it wasn’t the SLJ music, the horrid stuff can and should be considered part of the SLJ legacy that we can very well do without.

 

[Sarabande]

Would that that were true everywhere. The choir in my parish, consisting of nobody under 40, has just dug out the old G&P, G&P 2 and G&P 3. We’re now singing Carey Landry’s horrible Gloria from “Young People’s Mass” & “The Mass is Ended”
every Sunday. It makes me want to wear my bite plane each time I go to Mass, such is the grinding of teeth that occurs each time I hear that garbage.

I’m sorry about that. Our choir is also mostly made up of “older” folks who had been singing there since their college days. My husband and I were the youngest there when we sang in the choir (we started in college as well). But I’ve seen more younger people join since I’ve left. The choir (even during the 60s, 70s and 80s) never did any of the folk music and other music from the G&P and Gather hymnals. It was a strange phenomenon when you think about it. And back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s the majority of that choir was in their teens, twenties and 30s. The only time they had to do the other music was during the Archdiocesan events. But even now, since the change of our archbishop and Director of Liturgy for the diocese, that has definitely changed and we have been permitted to do Tallis, Byrd, Palestrina, etc. at those events, whereas before no one who never attended a regular parish mass ever knew the choir did that kind of music.

I’m starting to see more and more that I’m spoiled at my parish. But even my little country, farming parish that I attended for many weekends as a girl and whenever I have a chance to go back up to visit my family mountain home, they don’t even use the G&P, but the Worship III hymnals. And for a while they had to sing the hymns a capella as there was no one there who could play the organ or even play the guitar - so I was spoiled there as well. Although my childhood home parish where I attended grade school and received my sacraments was quite bad.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m sorry about that. Our choir is also mostly made up of “older” folks who had been singing there since their college days. My husband and I were the youngest there when we sang in the choir (we started in college as well). But I’ve seen more younger people join since I’ve left. The choir (even during the 60s, 70s and 80s) never did any of the folk music and other music from the G&P and Gather hymnals. It was a strange phenomenon when you think about it. And back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s the majority of that choir was in their teens, twenties and 30s. The only time they had to do the other music was during the Archdiocesan events. But even now, since the change of our archbishop and Director of Liturgy for the diocese, that has definitely changed and we have been permitted to do Tallis, Byrd, Palestrina, etc. at those events, whereas before no one who never attended a regular parish mass ever knew the choir did that kind of music.

I’m starting to see more and more that I’m spoiled at my parish. But even my little country, farming parish that I attended for many weekends as a girl and whenever I have a chance to go back up to visit my family mountain home, they don’t even use the G&P, but the Worship III hymnals. And for a while they had to sing the hymns a capella as there was no one there who could play the organ or even play the guitar - so I was spoiled there as well. Although my childhood home parish where I attended grade school and received my sacraments was quite bad.

Unfortunately, we had that kind of music when I was growing up. The sad part is that the flagship school and staff are still stuck in the 1970s time warp of bad liturgical music and practices. It seems that none of them have ever read Musica Sacram, let alone the books written by the Holy Father.

The problem is that a lof of these folks have never been exposed to good, solid Sacred Music. The only thing they’ve ever heard is the Glory and Praise genre and whatever kibbles they get from OCP. That is where the problem lies. In the eight years we’ve been a diocese, we’ve only had one stab at truly sacred music, and that was the White Mass of 2005 where I pushed to have part of the service music used for Pope Benedict’s installation Mass sung for that particular liturgy. During the other Masses I planned, I steered us clear away from anything used by OCP. Insread, we did A Community Mass settings and English hymns that were solid translations of older, Latin hymns. Whatever Spanish hymns we used weren’t the ones from the OCP stables. They were the much older ones that dated back to before the Council. But, unfortunately, the parishes don’t follow suit and, even during Easter, you’ll still find many of them using Glory and Priase to our God.

The Glory and Praise songbook just represents the worst of anything the US has as far as music is concerned.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I agree wholeheartedly with Sarabande’s post. There was awful music before Vatican II - unfortunately a lot of it was Marian in nature. Whenever we have new members in the choir or enough time has passed since the prank has been played, our director quietly slips Our Lady of Fatima into the practice binders. I don’t know who wrote it but it was written in the late 20’s and sounds for all the world like a silent movie track.

A dark and forbidding opening and then it breaks into this ragtimey piece with all the appropriate flourishes (I can still see my grandmother playing ragtime in the parlor). For those of us who have heard it before we can keep a straight face until the new folks fall out laughing. And I got sooooooo tired of hearing Humbly We Adore Thee as a kid so much so that it has soured me on Adoro Te Devote. But most of the really bad stuff from then was devotional in nature.

Anyone remember the Dameans? Lot’s of their stuff in G & P. They were a HUGE hit in 1969 New Orleans’ Catholic high schools and it was “Oh, the Dameans are coming to St. So and So for a concert!” The Dameans at that time were all seminarians at Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans. And that’s why for my graduation Mass in 1969 we sang Simon and Garfunkle and Sons of God and They’ll Know…It was the spirit of Vatican II doncha know.

And then there is a huge difference between what is sung of these musical pieces and the massive choral settings of these pieces which we cathedral choristers are subjected to. Classical composers these guys ain’t. Have any of you ever heard GIA’s “I will go up!” for choir, organ, and brass for ordinations? “No Greater Love” (No greater yuck as we say). Both by Joncas? uch: Both of these pieces are classic “a’strummin’ and a’grinnin” pieces badly bloated when the author tries to make them something they are not.

I get hammered for the use of those words but they are mine. One of my best friends from high school and I are still in contact after 39 years. He still plays his guitar and sings in his parish’s choir in New Orleans. Heck, he still plays guitar at our class reunion Masses every five years. I speak for the other half of my class who liked our earlier music traditions and had our feet ripped out from under us. I’ve got the “been there; done that” medal.

 

[Sarabande]

The problem is that a lof of these folks have never been exposed to good, solid Sacred Music.

That is true… If I didn’t study music, didn’t find the one or two parishes in the city that still kept up the sacred music heritage and didn’t study abroad where I realized that the music was not dead during mass, prompting me to find those parishes when I returned to the States, I would have thought that it was just how it was supposed to be. And now, I’m fortunate enough and young enough to be able to long enjoy a resurgence of it - at least in my city. It’s happening little by little, but still happening.

That was what was so special about our choir. The former director, God rest his soul, continued on with the musical heritage for the parish masses instead of taking up the folk mass music scene. That generation of choral members who were young men and women in the late 1960s through the '80s were fortunate to have that - when so many of their generation didn’t. And most were not musicians - just regular people who volunteered to sing there - so they weren’t the best singers, but they had a good director who knew how to teach and work very hard with them to sing repertoire from all the centuries - repertoire that many give up on teaching to the volunteer members. And mostly, he knew how to* inspire* love for this music because he loved the music too and showed that it wasn’t “old” and “stuffy” and “meaningless”.

The current director, who was a young man in his early 20s when he was hired as the organist under the past director, continued on the tradition as the director and organist there due to the previous director’s mentoring. He has been my friend and mentor as well. I just wish there were more people like those men.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The problem is that a lof of these folks have never been exposed to good, solid Sacred Music.

Oh so true. My sons only heard Glory and Praise type music at their Catholic grade and High Schools. They grew up listening to and singing good, solid Sacred Music at their cathedral parish. BTW we have driven 25 miles one way for the last 25 years - it means and meant that much to me. My oldest, at 26, took it upon himself to learn how to chant the Pater Noster in Latin. Absolutely floored me.

I am not going to make any apology for feeling this way. Our deep and profound musical heritage was ejected in the vast majority of parishes in 1968. We accept “whatever” as the norm. Let me tell you something folks. I saw with my own eyes that “greatest generation” abandon the Masses they traditionally went to in the 70s in favor of Masses which had no music. If you didn’t think I went with my mother and father and all of the neighbors in my parent’s generation to the Mass which had no music, think again. It is assumed that all of my generation was just ga-ga over the changes. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC (something which is completely lost in all of these types of threads).

 

[SMHW]

insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3536&Itemid=48

An interesting article on this well known hymnal, and where it has found it’s place in Catholic worship.

It seems to me that the article has to be looked at from the perspective of the author.

When I was growing up in the 1960s the style of singing that I heard in California, Minnesota, and points in between was either hideously sung English versions of some of the old Latin standards or it was the sing-a-round-the-campfire style of folk music typical of Ray Rep and Sebastian Temple. And that is assuming there was any music at all.

The Saint Louis Jesuits music did not phase out chant, sacred polyphony, and other classic hymns. They were already gone.

I think what the author of the article is trying to say is that the Glory and Praise music, however lacking it might seen in comparison to the ancient music of the church, was actually far more sophisticated than anything most dioceses had been singing for the previous decade.

This might seem silly to some people, but I think it’s interesting that Star Wars made its debut the same year that the first Gory and Praise hymnal was released. I don’t think many people realize how great an impact Jon Williams and Star Wars had on music in general, and IMO, music in the Church as well. Now the score to Star Wars wasn’t Jon William’s first but it was possible the first time in a decade or more that the rock’n’roll generation saw music as a story telling device. It opened a lot of people’s eyes to classical music who had previously been scornful of anything with the classic label attached.

Now the ‘sophistication’ of the SLJ was something akin to the way the Beatles grew more sophisticated than most previous rock music. But since the Church music of the 1960s and early 1970’s was considerably less sophisticated than 1950s rock, that made the SLJ a big improvement. When played and sung well (which it frequently wasn’t) the SLJ music touched people in a way that music hadn’t touched them before.

Again, the Glory and Praise music cannot stand up against the sacred music of the Church. But it did help convince a lot of people who had grown up not liking what music they did associate with the “Old” Church that music was important.

 

[THurifer2]

The music in G/P sounds like 70s and early 80s music. WHICH is a HUGE turn off to Gen X and younger.

Give us substance not BOOMER JUNK.

 

[Phemie]

It really helps to be exposed to quality stuff.

I grew up in a French parish so most of the English hymns I’ve been exposed to have been post Vat. II stuff “I saw raindrops on my window”, “Lord, teach us to pray”, etc. Other than Christmas carols, I never heard some of the traditional hymns until the late 80s when I moved to a parish that was using the CBW II. That continued in this parish with the CBW III. It’s not a bad hymnal even if the updated hymns make me cringe: was it really so difficult to sing “All Glory, Laud and Honor to thee redeemer King” that we had to change it to “All Glory, Praise and Honor to you redeemer King”?

Anyway, I went off to do some summer classes in Liturgy, courses offered by St. Paul School of Theology. While there I heard Haugen’s ‘Canticle of the Sun’ for the first time and I really liked it. It worked well for Morning Prayer. I only heard it a couple of times and I didn’t really pay attention to the words. The second year I was there I started to look at the words more carefully. Hmmm, why are we singing praises to the sun, and the wind, etc? Why does this song make them seem to have ‘will’?

Two years later I heard “All Creatures of Our God and King” for the first time and now I can’t stand “Canticle of the Sun”. Unfortunately for me, our pastor loves it so we get it often at the anticipated Sunday Mass where we always have to sing a capella.

I made the choir promise that if I die while I’m still here the processional for my funeral will be “All Creatures…” Every last verse, particularly the one about death. My best friend wants “Canticle of the Sun”.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I grew up singing All Glory Laud and Honor and we use it even today as our processional on Palm Sunday as we actually process from a park near the cathedral to the cathedral. We use Worship III and there is greater congregation participation when we stick to the old traditional hymns.

My experience is exactly the opposite. I can tell you all about the songs which came out in the 70s but all of the more modern songs came after I joined the cathedral parish in 83. The only time I’ve heard them is when I’ve gone to other parishes.

BTW we your cousins here still sing in French too.

 

[Sarabande]

The music in G/P sounds like 70s and early 80s music. WHICH is a HUGE turn off to Gen X and younger.

Give us substance not BOOMER JUNK.

I’m a late Gen X’er as well. That was all we knew growing up with the exception of “Hail, Holy Queen”, “All Creatures of Our God and King” and a couple of others. G&P was a turn off to me too. At the time, I just thought it was the way things were supposed to be and I accepted it, although I always questioned it.

Even my siblings and other “contemporaries” who aren’t musician and don’t typically listen to classical music on a regular basis, although they do appreciate it, always thought the hymns at mass were what they literally called “junk”. My brother recently returned to the Church after a time of questioning and never going to mass. He’s a simple guy, yet very intelligent and a nice available young man. (haha) Loves all genres of music. Yet, he chooses to attend mass at my parish which is an hour away from home because of the reverence of the mass and because of the reverence and high quality and standard of the music, especially with the choir. And as I’ve mentioned in a previous post, my parents also travel the hour to go to my parish for mass as they have since been turned off by music similar to or are from G&P.

He knows the choir isn’t perfect, but they do good appropriate music. He said that one of the things that turned him off to attending mass for many years was the dumbing down of the mass and the music. He used to love singing and we were both in the school choir. For about a year or so, we had this wonderful priest who was classically trained and worked hard to get us to sing good music, but then he was transferred. After that, the music that we sang was from the G&P and OCP and it turned him off to singing. We actually begged our mother to take us out of the choir it turned us off that much - we were 2nd and 3rd graders and my parents at the time liked folk music along with classical and other genres (we grew up listening to old Peter, Paul and Mary and Jonie Mitchell, Judy Collins records - all of whom I still like, along with ABBA and Roger Whitiker, etc.) so we had no influence from them for being turned off. And my piano teachers weren’t spouting out the loss of good music in the Church to 8 and 9 year-olds. They were just teaching me piano.

 

[Phemie]

I grew up singing All Glory Laud and Honor and we use it even today as our processional on Palm Sunday as we actually process from a park near the cathedral to the cathedral. We use Worship III and there is greater congregation participation when we stick to the old traditional hymns.

My experience is exactly the opposite. I can tell you all about the songs which came out in the 70s but all of the more modern songs came after I joined the cathedral parish in 83. The only time I’ve heard them is when I’ve gone to other parishes.

BTW we your cousins here still sing in French too.

Ah, oui, nos cousins Cajuns.

I have to say that when I attended Mass at my home parish a few years ago I didn’t recognize any hymns that they sang – they too have thrown out the old French hymns and brought in new stuff.

Of course, not all the old French stuff was good either. I guess the French stuff I remember from pre-Vat. II consists mainly of Marian hymns and they could be just as treacly in French as in English.

Did you know that there is now an international French hymnal? It was put out by the Bishops Conferences of the various French speaking nations. I think I recognize all of two hymns in it.

 

[ethelzguy]

The music in G/P sounds like 70s and early 80s music. WHICH is a HUGE turn off to Gen X and younger.

Give us substance not BOOMER JUNK.

Well, our organist’s rendition of “Battle Hymn of the Republic” sounds an awful lot like “junk” too, so I guess much of this is subjective.

 

[Sarabande]

Well, our organist’s rendition of “Battle Hymn of the Republic” sounds an awful lot like “junk” too, so I guess much of this is subjective.

No one is saying there wasn’t junk in prior centuries. There definitely were. Also Battle Hymn of the Republic isn’t even a Catholic hymn. It was based on a song called “John Brown’s Body” that the Civil War soldiers in America sang while marching. It was a marching song - not a hymn - and marching songs were never considered well-composed pieces of music, just something to march easily to. Then someone wrote the words that we sing to now.

 

[benedictgal]

No one is saying there wasn’t junk in prior centuries. There definitely were. Also Battle Hymn of the Republic isn’t even a Catholic hymn. It was based on a song called “John Brown’s Body” that the Civil War soldiers in America sang while marching. It was a marching song - not a hymn - and marching songs were never considered well-composed pieces of music, just something to march easily to. Then someone wrote the words that we sing to now.

It is actually a war hymn for the Northern side. I learned that lesson from one of the priests who is a proud Southerner and whose ancestors fought in the War between the States. He told the choir director to never, ever, use that song for Mass again. In fact, as he heard the organ play the first stirrings of the song, he sent me up to personally give the message to the choir director. We recessed out to Sing with all the Saints in Glory.

Oddly enough, it was rather amusing that the White House chose that song for the Papal visit. At least it was better than what went on the following day at Nationals Stadium.

 

[aloysiusg]

At least it was better than what went on the following day at Nationals Stadium.

Still getting your digs in on the DC mass there benedictgal? I would’ve thought you’d have moved on by now.

 

[Sarabande]

It is actually a war hymn for the Northern side. I learned that lesson from one of the priests who is a proud Southerner and whose ancestors fought in the War between the States. He told the choir director to never, ever, use that song for Mass again. In fact, as he heard the organ play the first stirrings of the song, he sent me up to personally give the message to the choir director. We recessed out to Sing with all the Saints in Glory.

I’m not getting picky, but marching hymns during battle are war hymns basically. As a Revolutionary War Reenactor (not Civil War, but close enough) that is something I’ve learned as to why there were marching hymns/songs. Each different melody was played during battle or on the march which basically instructed the soldier what they were supposed to do during the battle or how they were to march, especially since there was no other major way of communicating. If they heard the tune for Retreat during the noisy heat of battle, they’d retreat instead of being slaughtered. Special melodies were played to gear men up to fight the other side. Another melody would be used to do certain kinds of marches. There were tons of marches and songs like that and I’ve had to listen to all of them through my husband’s fife or the fife and drums for our regiments and the other regiments when we reenact the actual battles.

We do not use that hymn either in our parish because of that.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Civil War reenactor here and member of a parish whose sanctuary area was shelled by the Union Fleet in 1862 and collapsed. The first and only time the Battle Hymn of the Republic was played (as a recessional) was on a Fourth of July (which fell on a Sunday). The silence from the congregation was defeaning and the looks on people’s faces as we, the choir, processed out was, err…quite interesting.

Needless to say, our organist/choir director heard quite a bit about it afterwards. Far too many of folks down here are aware of what happened to their ancestors, their ancestors homes, and the fact that there is that battlefield and cemetary just a few blocks walk from the cathedral could have something to do with it.

 

[mercygate]

Civil War reenactor here and member of a parish whose sanctuary area was shelled by the Union Fleet in 1862 . . . .

Ahem. I believe you may be referring to what is more frequently termed “The War of Northern Aggression” in your parts, are you not?