Glory and Praise Hymnal

[Ridgerunner]

All this explanation about how G&P is a “transitional hymnal” begs for the question: “Well, how long do we have to be in transition?” I see no movement at all.

I’ll grant that there are a handful of hymns in it that aren’t completely awful. And, of course, people eventually learn to sing what they have no alternative but to sing, unless they opt out completely, which many do.

It might be peculiar to my area, but the songs that get sung the most vigorously are “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” and the old Protestant songs. They’re singable, have recognizable, not displeasing melodies, and have a dignity about them.

Surely the Bishops could engage some real songwriters to replace some of the worst songs at least.

 

[brotherhrolf]

the SLJ sound more like something out of the soundtrack for The Graduate.

The Glory and Praise stuff will probably just go down as a speed bump on the liturgical highway.

You mean I might not be wrong for objecting to singing “Sounds of Silence” and “Bridge over Troubled Waters” at my Catholic high school graduation Mass in May of 1969? :bigyikes: That there might be others like me? :bigyikes:

Sorry, I’m just being sarcastic - I have had 40 years to work on it.

I don’t have a degree in music. I learned to play trumpet from 7th to 10th grade. I can sing on key but don’t ask me to sight sing.

I do have a tremendous love of the music of our Catholic musical heritage that I developed long before 1969 and that we certainly sang in my Catholic boy’s high school choir from 1965 through September of 1968. How’s that for a concrete date? The date when the Brothers stopped wearing cassocks. The date when the organ was retired from chapel and the guitars were whipped out. The date when the school’s choir was dissolved in favor of my classmates with their guitars. Who got left behind?

“Sons of God” is not “Praise to the Lord” much less “Pange Lingua”. G & P is not Worship III. Gather is not even in the same universe as St. Gregory. Was this a universal decision, or was this a fait acompli and has been for the last forty years?

I remember what we had and I all too remember what we have now. The problem is that there are far too many of you who have never heard what I heard or heard it so infrequently as to make it inconsequential. I give thanks to God that He directed me to my parish in 83 and that he has given me the opportunity and , indeed, the true pleasure to serve Him and, indeed, the opportunity to sing His praises as my ancestors sang them.

That is not hyperbole on my part - I believe it. There is a gourmet banquet of undeniably Catholic music available and most parishes settle for the Big Mac of my brothers from 40 years ago with guitars. How sad is that? We abandon our profound and deep musical heritage in favor of a Big Mac. We could have a gourmet meal and we settle for a Big Mac.

 

[Guitar]

All this explanation about how G&P is a “transitional hymnal” begs for the question: “Well, how long do we have to be in transition?” I see no movement at all.

I see movement.

Twenty years ago when we needed a new hymnal I fought the G&P push (spearheaded by the parish primary school teachers) tooth and nail, which surprised everyone who assumed that as I was mainly a guitarist, I would “naturally” be on side. Wrong. The only other choice at the time had plenty of terrible stuff in it (not quite as bad as Sons of God but enough from that era) but it had Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Praise to the Lord, Hail Redeemer King Divine, Soul of My Saviour, Sweet Sacrament Divine, Godhead Here in Hiding, O Sacred Head, Gelineau’s Psalm 23, and so on and so forth. I kept insisting that we could not pick a new book that in one stroke tossed out nearly all traditional hymns, and fortunately we carried the day.

So whilst on one hand we could have been bashed for having the other stuff in the pews, accepting a non-ideal “transitional” hymnal at least kept the traditional hymns available for the next ten years. The alternative would mean they fell into complete disuse at least until the next hymnal was due.

So then I and a couple of others kept quietly plugging away, making sure that younger people got at least some exposure to the older melodies, and kinda just never getting round to scheduling the worst of the undesirable stuff. Twenty or so years later, there is now a tangible feeling that the bulk of the 60s and 70s music has had its day, and the traditional hymns are valued by a large portion of the congregation. They really love to sing a few of the SLJ things and some of the contemporary items that many here would not like, but the traditional hymns are sung with great gusto. The school on the other hand now does what it pleases with the latest promotions from the education office and portable projector screens and tapes, and the school children (literally) do not know what a hymnal is and what it’s for. The school is a lost cause, so we just worry about the parishioners now. At least letting them break away completely means they can’t influence parish choices any more.

That has laid the groundwork for the next move in my long term plan which will be to get some chant in English going, and then maybe we can move on to parts of the mass in Latin. The move might not be obvious if you dropped in for any one particular Mass, but it is definitely there. We have a loooong way to go but the transition is underway - for us, at least. Back then, even though the school pushed for it, most would have accepted G&P without too much fuss. No way would they accept it or its equivalent now.

 

[mercygate]

Slightly off topic, but as I read so many posts as to how organ music is so much more appropriate to Church and Mass…

My mind wanders back to my childhood. Back before I was born, my Father made his living tuning and repairing pipe organs in theaters and churches. He would spend a week or two at a time in some city, making the rounds of the churches and theaters, doing his thing.

When he and my Mother married and started a family, he found a more at-home career running a dairy.

Anyway, occasionally on a Sunday afternoon, he would get in “one of those moods” and we’d wander down to the chuch where he would “blow the dust” out of those organ pipes!

Most of you folks would faint dead away if you had heard him back then…He would rock the walls and shake the windows of St. Theresa’s to the sound of tunes like “South Rampart Street Parade”, “Under The Double Eagle”, and “Darktown Strutter’s Ball”.

The priests and nuns there thought it was a hoot, and Pop had a blast.

Those were the days…

Heh, heh. About 20 years ago, the organist in our parish had a second job as organist at Madison Square Garden. Whenever the choir got unruly at rehearsal, he would call us to attention by playing “ta-da da-dah da DAHHHHH!”

 

[Ridgerunner]

I see movement.

Twenty years ago when we needed a new hymnal I fought the G&P push (spearheaded by the parish primary school teachers) tooth and nail, which surprised everyone who assumed that as I was mainly a guitarist, I would “naturally” be on side. Wrong. The only other choice at the time had plenty of terrible stuff in it (not quite as bad as Sons of God but enough from that era) but it had Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Praise to the Lord, Hail Redeemer King Divine, Soul of My Saviour, Sweet Sacrament Divine, Godhead Here in Hiding, O Sacred Head, Gelineau’s Psalm 23, and so on and so forth. I kept insisting that we could not pick a new book that in one stroke tossed out nearly all traditional hymns, and fortunately we carried the day.

So whilst on one hand we could have been bashed for having the other stuff in the pews, accepting a non-ideal “transitional” hymnal at least kept the traditional hymns available for the next ten years. The alternative would mean they fell into complete disuse at least until the next hymnal was due.

So then I and a couple of others kept quietly plugging away, making sure that younger people got at least some exposure to the older melodies, and kinda just never getting round to scheduling the worst of the undesirable stuff. Twenty or so years later, there is now a tangible feeling that the bulk of the 60s and 70s music has had its day, and the traditional hymns are valued by a large portion of the congregation. They really love to sing a few of the SLJ things and some of the contemporary items that many here would not like, but the traditional hymns are sung with great gusto. The school on the other hand now does what it pleases with the latest promotions from the education office and portable projector screens and tapes, and the school children (literally) do not know what a hymnal is and what it’s for. The school is a lost cause, so we just worry about the parishioners now. At least letting them break away completely means they can’t influence parish choices any more.

That has laid the groundwork for the next move in my long term plan which will be to get some chant in English going, and then maybe we can move on to parts of the mass in Latin. The move might not be obvious if you dropped in for any one particular Mass, but it is definitely there. We have a loooong way to go but the transition is underway - for us, at least. Back then, even though the school pushed for it, most would have accepted G&P without too much fuss. No way would they accept it or its equivalent now.

Your parish was fortunate in some ways, though your account of the situation with the school does not inspire optimism, particularly since it bespeaks unfortunate diocesan attitudes. There are currents the other way in many places. Recently, a parish near here, which had resisted G&P for years (it is an older, working-class parish) and had a very talented music director, got a new pastor. First thing he did was fire the music director and get one who is G&P all the way. The congregants, who had, over the years, learned excellent and beautiful hymns, now have to learn 70s folk music if they want to sing at all. Most don’t sing now, of course. But that’s acceptable to the pastor. Better that they don’t sing at all than that they sing something other than SLJ and Marty Haugen. But it has to be admitted that the parish has now joined the perpetual “transition”.

 

[aloysiusg]

I think we need to clarify what we are debating here. No one in their right mind uses strictly G&P anymore - that is just foolish, and a pastor or music minister who were to insist on that is just being dumb, and not serving their parish well. That is different from chastising the SLJ and their ilk, who wrote their music as a reflection of the times and culture. Most of that doesn’t translate today - a few do, some of the better ones, but most does not. That is how it is with all music - the best will rise to the top and stay with us, the rest will fall by the wayside. Funny thing is, probably some of the really good G&P stuff may not be its most well know - there is one song “May We Praise You” which is absolutely gorgeous, especially in four-part harmony, but I’ve yet to hear a choir pull it off in a mass.

 

[ethelzguy]

Might I observe that you have a view of us which does not reflect the reality?

Perhaps, but then again, it’s been kinda fun the last couple of days to see some truth about the old days come out from behind the curtain.

It wasn’t all holy and pious perfection back then either.

We had priests who could do the Evelyn Wood 12-minute speed Mass, priests who could flip hosts on tongues faster than a blackjack dealer could flip cards on the felt, Pop blastin away on the organ, and those Sunday afternoon cookouts when the priest(s) would come by to sip suds and grill brots.

Today ain’t perfect, but then again neither was yesterday.

 

[ethelzguy]

Heh, heh. About 20 years ago, the organist in our parish had a second job as organist at Madison Square Garden. Whenever the choir got unruly at rehearsal, he would call us to attention by playing “ta-da da-dah da DAHHHHH!”

My favorite memory of Pop on the organ, was the afternoon when one of the church ladies was there, refilling the votive candles.

Pop was really lettin’ it rip, and the lady bellowed up “For the love of Mike, Frank…dontcha know any Cathlik music?”

Pop hollered down, “Oh, yes ma’am”…and then launched into a spirited rendition of “Beer Barrel Polka”…I can still see her throwing her hands in the air in disgust, and snorting “Oh, YOU…”, and then storming out of church.

Speaking of MSG, one of his faves was “Sweet Georgia Brown”. And, it think that was long before it was popularized as the Harlem Globetrotters theme song…maybe not

 

[brotherhrolf]

Perhaps, but then again, it’s been kinda fun the last couple of days to see some truth about the old days come out from behind the curtain.

It wasn’t all holy and pious perfection back then either.

We had priests who could do the Evelyn Wood 12-minute speed Mass, priests who could flip hosts on tongues faster than a blackjack dealer could flip cards on the felt, Pop blastin away on the organ, and those Sunday afternoon cookouts when the priest(s) would come by to sip suds and grill brots.

Today ain’t perfect, but then again neither was yesterday.

And your point is…what? That there were abuses when we were children - of course. But a 12 minute speed Mass does not equate to diaphonous gowned liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense up the main aisle in my eyes. Priests being able to “flip hosts” does not equate to liturgical banner dancers swaying 12’ high banners with ribbons up and down the main aisle in my eyes. I’ve seen both of those on more than one ocassion as a chorister in a cathedral choir whereas as an altar boy before Vatican II, I never saw any of the abuses you described although I know that they existed in other parishes.

So, Father came by to sip suds and grill brots. I am scandalized - not. You need to come down here to south Louisiana and as we say, “pass a good time”. We don’t put our priests and religious on such a high footing as you. If Father can cook a good gumbo or jambalaya, his esteem goes up in the community. And, yes, I can name you priests down here who are renowned for their culinary abilities and cook at parish fairs to the delight of us guys out in the pew. If they sip suds or drink a glass of wine when cooking, which one of us doesn’t?

 

[ethelzguy]

And your point is…what?

That when you think about it, our Church yesterday, today, and tomorrow did/does/will have it’s glories and it’s stumbles…but none of it is all bad, nor was it el perfecto either.

In the meantime, I will continue to pray, pay, and obey, in my home parish, while reminding myself that…while everything may not be what I think it should be, it could be a whole lot worse.

 

[Sarabande]

…
It wasn’t all holy and pious perfection back then either.

We had priests who could do the Evelyn Wood 12-minute speed Mass, priests who could flip hosts on tongues faster than a blackjack dealer could flip cards on the felt, Pop blastin away on the organ, and those Sunday afternoon cookouts when the priest(s) would come by to sip suds and grill brots.

Today ain’t perfect, but then again neither was yesterday.

Very true… no era was perfect. but I fail to see how playing pop or non-sacred music on the organ outside of mass would be considered wrong in the first place. It never would have been considered wrong as long as it was outside of the mass. I also don’t see what the problem was with having priests joining in on Sunday afternoon cookouts. That has always been the case - especially in smaller parishes - maybe not cookouts all the time, but dinners, festivals, etc. So, I don’t understand how any of those would be considered wrong or imperfect. It’s outside of the mass.

And actually, I don’t see anything wrong with a priest being talented enough to get a host into someone’s mouth without touching the person’s mouth, especially if you had a huge congregation. I’m always amazed how the priests can do it now when I receive on the tongue - but I tend to close my eyes when they do it.

 

[ethelzguy]

but I fail to see how playing pop or non-sacred music on the organ outside of mass would be considered wrong in the first place. It never would have been considered wrong as long as it was outside of the mass.

Well, there were a few folks who chastised Pop for playing like that “in the presence of the Blessed Sacrement”.

He asked one lady…“oh, so you KNOW what kind of music God does and doesn’t like?”

I guess in the big picture, what I’m trying to say is…that we should revel in the big picture and not consume so much of our spiritual capital looking for something wrong in our Masses and our parishes.

We’re lucky to be Catholic, as far as I’m concerned. And, if some priest of choir director does something a little different than I’m used to or like…I remind myself that I’m but one of millions of us, and I need to lighten up.

Peter isn’t going to ask for my list of observed and reported perceived abuses in liturgy or music when I get to the gates…that is, if I get there to begin with.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

The music in G/P sounds like 70s and early 80s music. WHICH is a HUGE turn off to Gen X and younger.

Give us substance not BOOMER JUNK.

Amen!!! I too would rather have the real thing.

 

[ethelzguy]

Amen!!! I too would rather have the real thing.

I have held my feelings to this point, but I have a son who plays guitar at one Mass, and a grandson who plays violin at another.

I think that maybe some of you have some real soul-searching to do, with regard to your pompous, holier-than-thou attitudes. How dare you sit at your keyboards criticizing people who apply their talents in praise to our God?

 

[aloysiusg]

I have held my feelings to this point, but I have a son who plays guitar at one Mass, and a grandson who plays violin at another.

I think that maybe some of you have some real soul-searching to do, with regard to your pompous, holier-than-thou attitudes. How dare you sit at your keyboards criticizing people who apply their talents in praise to our God?

ethel - I think the critique is directed toward the music, and not necessarily the musicians.

 

[ethelzguy]

ethel - I think the critique is directed toward the music, and not necessarily the musicians.

In the context of the posts, my decendants are being accused of playing “boomer junk” in Church, as somehow opposed to “the real thing”.

ps, Ethel is my wife

 

[aloysiusg]

In the context of the posts, my decendants are being accused of playing “boomer junk” in Church, as somehow opposed to “the real thing”.

ps, Ethel is my wife

I hear you - I play the guitar also, and it is tough being such on this site - oh well, it is my choice to be here, so I can’t really complain - it’s not like it should be a surprise.

sorry about the mixup - say hi to ethel for me

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I hear you - I play the guitar also, and it is tough being such on this site - oh well, it is my choice to be here, so I can’t really complain - it’s not like it should be a surprise.

sorry about the mixup - say hi to ethel for me

I’m a heretic guitar player as well. Although I left playing at Mass, about 6 years ago, I still get asked to come back and play, by various parishioners.

After my experience with some folks in this forum, I wonder if there were any people in my parish who are like those here, who would’ve preferred to have me taken out to the edge of town and stoned to death?

Jim

 

[aloysiusg]

I’m a heretic guitar player as well. Although I left playing at Mass, about 6 years ago, I still get asked to come back and play, by various parishioners.

After my experience with some folks in this forum, I wonder if there were any people in my parish who are like those here, who would’ve preferred to have me taken out to the edge of town and stoned to death?

Jim

I would only have you stoned if

1. your guitar wasn’t in tune or
2. you played a continued downstrum instead of a proper 3-4 or 4-4 strum.

 

[GemmaRose]

If I read the author correctly, then The Brady Bunch, Welcome Back, Kotter and Three’s Company would then be far superior than William Shakespeare.

The SLJ didn’t raise any bar as far as Sacred Music is concerned. In fact, they lowered it worse than the limbo. Not only did the seventies give us Disco, the Village People and bell-bottom trousers, the decade gave us the worst in liturgical music.

The theological depth of the SLJ lyrics, while taken from biblical sources, does not even reach the beauty of what St. Thomas Aquinas wrote.

Once again, we hear the definitive word (i.e., her own opinion) on liturgical music from a self-admitted non-musician, Benedictgal - THE expert on music in the Catholic Church.