Glory and Praise Hymnal

[GemmaRose]

Any music minister who is worth their salt will recognize that each musical genre has its good and bad representations, and will choose the best from each, assuming that they are litugically sound, of course. The MM shouldn’t limit themselves (or their parish) to strictly one genre unless lack of resources prevents it.

:yup: :clapping:

 

[GemmaRose]

Not necessarily, especially, if there are questionable hymns associated with that genre. The SLJ aren’t known for being the pantheon of great Sacred music. I wouldn’t put them on the level with Gregorian music, nor would I put them on par with St. Thomas Aquainas.
Come on BG, admit it - you wouldn’t put a choir of angels on par with Gregorian music or St. Thomas Aquinas if they were singing anything written in the past 25 years.

They simply aren’t at that level. In fact, most of their collection, which is now owned by OCP, is under sub-par.
In your own non-humble opinion.

Brotherhrolf makes some very valid points in his posts. Unfortunately, a lot of the Glory and Praise stuff is sentimental, much worse than what came before it.
Once again, only your opinion.

I’m curious… if one day the Lord asks you, “Why did you write so uncharitably about those people I inspired to write sacred music to help lift the minds and hearts of My people to Me?” - what will your response be?

 

[GemmaRose]

Of course, there are some of us who have actually read the Holy Father’s books, so, we live in the same cosmos as he does. At least, we agree with him when he writes that certainly, as far as the Mass goes, certainly not one song is as good as another.

Unfortunately, the SLJ came about like the Fifth Dimension, singing about the Age of Aquarius, which, has, thank God, come and gone.

And, of course, we all know that only Benedictgal has ever read anything that a Pope wrote,

 

[GemmaRose]

It can’t be any worse than at my diocese where the music for the flagship school’s First Holy Communion Mass consisted of They’ll Know We are Christians and This Little Light of Mine, truly the worst of the bunch. This was really bad stuff, and, all courtesy of the Gory and Blase book.

While I do agree that the two songs mentioned are horrible, and should never be used again, anywhere, neither of them are found in the Glory & Praise books, which you slanderously refer to as “Gory and Blase.”

But, then again, if you were a liturgical musician, you would have known this.

 

[aloysiusg]

Gemma - ease up - this is becoming awkward, almost like you are stalking her

 

[GemmaRose]

benedictgal

But the Pope speaks from a frame of reference of having been not only the Pope for the past three years, but as a Cardinal, in Rome, for at least the past 3 decades.

When do you think the Pope sat in a a pew of a Mass at a little American Parish like mine? Do you think he’d expect to hear the classical Cathedral Music that he’s been accustom to for more than half his life, or would he understand the cultural difference between small town America and the Vatican? I think he’d understand. He sure seemed to during his recent visit to the US.

Of course the SLJ hymns don’t sound anything like the Fifth Dimension, nor any of the other derogatory terms you like to use against them.

I wouldn’t want to see Glory and Praise Hymns used at a Cathedral, but it fits well in smaller parishes where the people
in the pews are actually sing.

I knew the article the OP posted, wouldn’t go by without great wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Trads of this forum.

Jim

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[GemmaRose]

Well, obviously the music is well enough received by those in charge, as not only is G&P here to stay, much of it has been incorporated into the Gather hymnal.

While some see it as garbage, many others see it as spiritual and uplifting.

And yes, I’ve seen the many posts and read the links as to how “this Bishop”, “that Cardinal”, or “some other Pope” has declared certain musics to be “preferable”. But that doesn’t mean that anything not under the “preferable” umbrella is banished or inappropriate. That individual personally sees it as preferable, period.

:clapping: Praise God! Another voice of reason! :clapping:

 

[GemmaRose]

Well he certainly had to endure a lot of the stuff that we have to put up with during the DC Mass. Jim, the US is not necessarily the bastion of Sacred Music. When he celebrated Mass at St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna, the Holy Father extolled the beauty of the music and how it added to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Because it is a style of music he prefers. If the Holy Father’s favorite food was boiled tripe it doesn’t mean we all have to eat it.

Not a word was said about the mish-mash that was performed in DC. While it wasn’t the SLJ music, the horrid stuff can and should be considered part of the SLJ legacy that we can very well do without.
BG, I think it’s really time now to take your meds.

 

[GemmaRose]

Unfortunately, we had that kind of music when I was growing up. The sad part is that the flagship school and staff are still stuck in the 1970s time warp of bad liturgical music and practices. It seems that none of them have ever read Musica Sacram, let alone the books written by the Holy Father.
No, of course not. No one has but Benedictgal.

The problem is that a lof of these folks have never been exposed to good, solid Sacred Music. The only thing they’ve ever heard is the Glory and Praise genre and whatever kibbles they get from OCP.
No - we all grew up in caves.

That is where the problem lies. In the eight years we’ve been a diocese, we’ve only had one stab at truly sacred music, and that was the White Mass of 2005 where I pushed to have part of the service music used for Pope Benedict’s installation Mass sung for that particular liturgy. During the other Masses I planned, I steered us clear away from anything used by OCP. Insread, we did A Community Mass settings and English hymns that were solid translations of older, Latin hymns. Whatever Spanish hymns we used weren’t the ones from the OCP stables. They were the much older ones that dated back to before the Council. But, unfortunately, the parishes don’t follow suit and, even during Easter, you’ll still find many of them using Glory and Priase to our God.
Maybe that parishes do not follow your lead should tell you something.

The Glory and Praise songbook just represents the worst of anything the US has as far as music is concerned.
Your opinion. Your opinion. Your own opinion.

 

[GemmaRose]

… It is assumed that all of my generation was just ga-ga over the changes. **We submitted to the magesterium of HMC **(something which is completely lost in all of these types of threads).

But what exactly do you mean by this? The Magisterium of HMC has never issued a mandate regarding sacred music so there is no submitting to be done.

 

[brotherhrolf]

But what exactly do you mean by this? The Magisterium of HMC has never issued a mandate regarding sacred music so there is no submitting to be done.

Boy, if that’s not parsing a phrase, I don’t know what is.

I know this is not PC but the question has to be asked. Gemma, I was 17 in 1968. Are you older than me, of an age with me, or younger than me? This is critical to any response I would give.

You can tell from my age that I have the “been there, done that” medal and have spent the last 40 years seeking refuge from that which was wrought by my contemporaries in 1968. I saw my mother and father and neighbors go from attending the 10:00 am Mass to the 8:00 am Mass to the Vigil Mass on Saturday to avoid the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks. “Better no music than that” as my mother said. I have driven 25 miles for 25 years to avoid that kind of music as well since my local geographic parish does not have any Mass where that kind of music is not played.

Humor me as an anthropologist. Benedictgal has more than answered you with documents. Allow me to approach the situation as an anthropologist.

 

[benedictgal]

The documents of the Church have been very clear about what constitutes Sacred Music. The problem is that there are those who have perhaps never taken the time, nor had the desire, to read them. Instead, they rely on the alleged Spirit of Vatican II to guide them along their merry way.

Glory and Praise music represents this sad footnote in music. While some of the songs find their basis in scriptures, their musical settings are not appropriate for the Mass. Even when played with an organ, these compositions simply don’t work.

Just because I am not a musician doesn’t mean that I am to be discounted. You don’t have to be a musiican to know what good and solid liturgical music should be. Reading the Church documents (the ones released by the Holy See), looking at the content and studying the particular hymns certainly help in making a qualified judgment. It also helps to read what renowned and bona fide Church officials, including the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, have written on the subject.

I have also planned many, many liturgies at the parish and diocesan level, including a diaconoate ordination, several Chrism Masses and other celebrations. Therefore, I know what I am doing. And, what I have done is not use any of the stuff from Glory and Praise. Why? It is not suitable for the solemnity and the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[aloysiusg]

Why am I getting a feeling of deja vu here?

 

[GemmaRose]

It seems to me that the article has to be looked at from the perspective of the author.

When I was growing up in the 1960s the style of singing that I heard in California, Minnesota, and points in between was either hideously sung English versions of some of the old Latin standards or it was the sing-a-round-the-campfire style of folk music typical of Ray Rep and Sebastian Temple. And that is assuming there was any music at all.

The Saint Louis Jesuits music did not phase out chant, sacred polyphony, and other classic hymns. They were already gone.

BRAVO! :clapping: Thank you for pointing this out!

I think what the author of the article is trying to say is that the Glory and Praise music, however lacking it might seen in comparison to the ancient music of the church, was actually far more sophisticated than anything most dioceses had been singing for the previous decade.

This might seem silly to some people, but I think it’s interesting that Star Wars made its debut the same year that the first Gory and Praise hymnal was released. I don’t think many people realize how great an impact Jon Williams and Star Wars had on music in general, and IMO, music in the Church as well. Now the score to Star Wars wasn’t Jon William’s first but it was possible the first time in a decade or more that the rock’n’roll generation saw music as a story telling device. It opened a lot of people’s eyes to classical music who had previously been scornful of anything with the classic label attached.

Now the ‘sophistication’ of the SLJ was something akin to the way the Beatles grew more sophisticated than most previous rock music. But since the Church music of the 1960s and early 1970’s was considerably less sophisticated than 1950s rock, that made the SLJ a big improvement. When played and sung well (which it frequently wasn’t) the SLJ music touched people in a way that music hadn’t touched them before.

I have seen many teary-eyed parishioners in my day after hearing “Be Not Afraid” or “You are Mine.” I have never seen the same reaction to “The Church’s One Foundation.”

Again, the Glory and Praise music cannot stand up against the sacred music of the Church. But it did help convince a lot of people who had grown up not liking what music they did associate with the “Old” Church that music was important.

Very important indeed.

 

[brotherhrolf]

OK, I’m the big dinosaur standing in the middle of this discussion.

I attended a Catholic boy’s high school in New Orleans from 1965 - 1969. I have no idea what was going on in CA or MN but I witnessed the whole thing with my own two ears and my own two eyeballs.

We sang traditional Catholic music up until my senior year in 1968. At the beginning of my senior year, everything changed. Many of the brothers no longer wore cassocks but transistioned to black pants, white shirt, and black tie. At the same time, the organ was taken out of chapel and replaced by Da Da Dahhhhh!, several of my good friends (hey, boys and girls, guess what? I still talk to them on the phone) on guitars. Seniors, ya know? Seniors rule!

I had been a member of our school’s choir and in May of that same year, we sang for the class of 1968’s graduation and we sang traditional Catholic hymns, motets, and chant. We came back in August and found that we had been dissolved. Fancy that. (Do you have any idea of how nice an all male choir sounds singing motets?). [Boys of that age have tremendous range]

So, the opening Mass of the school year and out comes FJ and GK et al with guitars. Here we go - a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ Sons of God hear His Holy Word…etc, etc, etc. Parce Domine it wasn’t. Oh, there were those in my class who thought that was just plain groovy. But there were more than enough of us who said “WHAT?” - particularly those of us in the choir.

We went to Br. J, who was principal, to complain. We were told that we needed to modernize, that Vatican II was intended to bring fresh air into the Church, and that, after all, we were teenagers and this was our music. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC (the teaching authority of HMC, our principal). What, was there supposed to be some kind of Latin document, I am supposed to produce? We didn’t question HMC back then.

Likewise, in our parishes we submitted to the magesterium of HMC - Father said, we need to modernize, who are we to disagree with Father? This was our faith. We followed the dictates of our Church and did not question.

It was only in the late 70s and early 80s that the “end run” by the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks of my generation was noticed.

My point - to say that all of us way back when gave a huge sigh of relief when we moved from traditional Catholic chants and sacred polyphony to guitars and folk melodies is simply the biggest lie that has come out of the period. And it continues to this day.

In an era when it was announced from the pulpit…“In two weeks we will no longer chant the Gloria in Latin, we will say it in English”. For two years we transistioned from the TLM to the NO - what were we in the congretation to do when they said OK, no more Praise to the Lord, “They’ll Know We are Christians” is way too cool and that’s what we’re gonna sing.

Was there a formally produced Vatican document? No. Did we follow the magesterium of HMC? Yes.

PS. FJ and GK still play and sing for our class reunions.

 

[ejreydrum]

pope jean paul the second is cool.

 

[brotherhrolf]

pope jean paul the second is cool.

We thought Pope John XXIII was cool too.

 

[aloysiusg]

brotherhrolf - I want to sympathize with you, but it is hard to do when you keep using the condesceding “a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’” line. If you can’t respect what they are trying to offer to the liturgy, why should we respect what you want out of it?

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed.