"Gnashing of Teeth"

[Joysong]

Dave,

:clapping: You can fill up bandwidth anytime! Your analogies are very helpful. Reminds me of someone else Who loved to use parables.

From my OP: * “I took it to prayer asking God whether He was displeased with my reading this stuff …”* This is analgous to pickup up a “shiny stone,” particularly when certain people and/or sections are known to be contentious. I-we enter and read at our own risk.

Thanks so much!

Carole

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

After witnessing a few gentle lambs being eaten alive in a lion’s den because they were “different,” my spirit writhed with the overpowering perception of evil that was demonstrated in that section. I took it to prayer asking God whether He was displeased with my reading this stuff, and I received the impression of “wailing and gnashing of teeth” that gave me a foretaste of what hell on earth can be like for many. This was an unusual thought received from prayer that I had never really considered in depth before.

Joysong,

Do you really mean to imply that you believe those who disagreed with you are essentially damned? The sentiment that seems to exist here is very scary. Offering correction (or disagreement) on theological matters does not imply “evil”.

I am going to say an entire rosary for you this evening… because saying I’d do so and then NOT doing it would be a serious sin, I will write myself a note.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Paul,

I’m not surprised to see you here, and finding flaws in my words. Yes, please pray for me, a sinner.

 

[InLight247]

Dave, your shiny rock analogy is very good.
Our heart is like a lake. When we engage in recollection, our being with the Lord, the lake is still and calm. It reflects the beautiful sunshine, the blue sky, the floating clouds, and the peaceful scenery. When a shiny rock is picked up and thrown into the lake, it at least causes ripples, maybe waves. If we allow the rock continue to disturb, it will spoil the calmness of the water.

Personally, contentious discussions don’t bother me much any more as it used to. Now if I read some opinions that do not make any sense, disagreeable, or offensive, unless I feel it is important to make my voice heard, I usually ignore it and won’t read it any more. This protects me from the chance of contentious discussions. I also try to avoid argument in daily contact. The other day, a person called me and tried to bring up some old argument happened years ago by re-convincing me that the fault was all mine and not hers at all. I just told her to stop right there. I said I have already forgave and forgot, and there was no sense to stir the cold rice and re-fry it. The conversation stopped right there.

I find you just cannot reason with certain people. They think they are always right. In this case, I don’t bother. I guess this approach can also be called “silence of self”. Yes?

 

[DBT]

I guess this approach can also be called “silence of self”. Yes?

I’d say so. Paraphrasing St. Therese, sometimes “retreat” is the best course of action.

Anytime we conciously choose not to indulge the thoughts, feelings or emotions we know from experience will inflame us and make our recollection difficult, then we are practicing what I call “silence to self.” First things first.

We will always have arguement and strife and sometimes we must engage it. But we need to know ourselves very well to know that line in the sand where we do ourselves harm (lost recollection) by engaging and thereby take the risk of hurting another. When recollected, we’re more likely to be on safe ground in our interpretation of things as well as in how we treat others.

Dave.

 

[ncjohn]

Oh boy, can I resonate with all of this! There are so many times when I find myself caught up in picking up those shiny rocks. Finding those threads with troublesome posters whose only joy seems to come from trying to impose one thing or another on someone else.

When I find myself in this situation I am often troubled in the same way I have always been in trying to determine what a “just” response truly is when one observes oppression. The idealist in me wants to be totally non-violent and believe that good ultimately wins out over even the greatest of evil. But then the practical asserts itself and asks how one stands by as another is being greatly wounded. How is one to act in the face of great evil, for instance the situation in Darfur? Do we simply pray and try to supply humanitarian efforts or do we do more to actually stop the violence? If so, to what extent? What always comes to mind is St. James telling us that if we see someone hungry and only say that we hope they will be filled without offering them food that our faith is dead.

Similarly, when I see those who would create great burdens on others my ideals would be to simply pray without engaging in the violence myself, but often witnessing the carnage or knowing that there are innocent lurkers being hurt by the conversation will draw me into at least trying to create balance and give enough information for people to make decisions. The hard line there is to do so without offering up the sarcasm that spurs on those who are doing the wailing.

Trying to determine when silence is the best option and when we are to put on the armor of God to help one in need is difficult to discern. Like Carole, I’ve had more than my share of nights with fitful sleep, or no sleep, as I hashed out potential arguments or rehashed ones already made.

You’re right Dave that once the will has been distracted it’s hard to do much of anything useful to quiet it again until the storm passes. In the meantime I can only hope I don’t spend too much time gnashing myself!

Peace,

 

[DBT]

You’re right Dave that once the will has been distracted it’s hard to do much of anything useful to quiet it again until the storm passes. In the meantime I can only hope I don’t spend too much time gnashing myself!

Hi John
Very nice reflection and I’m glad you like the “shiny rock” analogy. It was just one of those things that came to me in a flash inspired by St. John’s teaching on “first movements” and the consent of the will to all those thoughts/feelings/emotions/images that just sort of bubble up from our sub-conscious.

The problem with contentious arguements is that instead of simply dealing with what comes our way in our minds and dealing with it in due course; we actively go seeking down in those dark corners fishing for all sorts of shiny rocks. Soon we’re powerless to stop it . . . but doing so is the work of a lifetime.

My one consolation in all this is the teaching that one day, God willing, even those “first movements” of our sub-concious will be made still, cleansed of all that is immoderate. On that happy day, our will won’t even be tempted . . . for all will be in union. And hard to believe, the distracted and divided mind will be no more.

Until that day, though, we just try our best and throw ourselves into His hands because for a lot of this only He can heal us.

Peace,

And isn’t THAT what its all about? I recently read that there comes a time when the devil will no longer tempt us through the obvious (like sensuality) because we recognize it too easily. Rather, he will do anything possible to disturb our peace . . . and this becomes his sole mission. Nothing big, though, like enticement to even venial sin. Instead, he plays on our imperfections and weakness through subtle little ploys. He’s great at strewing little shiny rocks before our feet

Peace,
Dave

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Hi Paul,

I’m not surprised to see you here, and finding flaws in my words. Yes, please pray for me, a sinner.

I do find flaws with the sentiment in those words, yes.

I offered the rosary for the cause that we’d both understand each others’ point of view better, actually.

I’ll stay out of the thread now.

 

[Joysong]

ncjohn:

When I find myself in this situation I am often troubled in the same way I have always been in trying to determine what a “just” response truly is when one observes oppression. The idealist in me wants to be totally non-violent and believe that good ultimately wins out over even the greatest of evil. But then the practical asserts itself and asks how one stands by as another is being greatly wounded.

I’m trying to faithfully discern the same responses, John. St. Faustina’s thread has a post where God specifically told her not to offer her opinion to a certain sister because she was not in the right spirit to listen. I think if we do our best to pray about these matters before jumping in the water, we can often know when to rescue the wounded, and when to keep silent. The prophetic nudge can be really overpowering, so if we are called to respond, there may be suffering for us. But in those instances, God seems to assist us Himself, and bring good out of our efforts, whether or not we see everything behind the scene.

As I prepared for lectoring at tomorrow’s vigil mass, I thought the end of the first reading fits nicely here, and illustrates the prophetic nudge that sometimes impels us to action:

My word shall not return to Me void, but shall do My will, achieving the end for which I sent it.

As always, your posts are most welcome and I thank you for sharing!

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Thank you, Paul.

 

[ncjohn]

I was somewhat surprised this morning as I read my Morning Prayer from the LOTH how much it spoke to all of this, though that might just be God trying to make a point I personally needed to hear. I use the Daughters of St. Paul version so the reading and intercessions might be different for those who use other versions, but here are the things I saw:

26 For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.
27 And she, who is one, can do all things, and renews everything while herself perduring;

When we allow ourselves to lie in God’s embrace we will at least occasionally be able to feel the heart of God and the Wisdom of God, enabling us to in fact discern that Holy Will. Much as Dave noted, that when we get away from our silence before God it is hard to hear that Voice we need to hear. There are a great number who have “knowledge” but there seem to be very few who know how to use that knowledge with wisdom to build up the Kingdom. Instead it is used as a blunt instrument to try to beat others into submission.

There was a thread I started a while back, located here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=280681, that dealt with the Ephesians passage about “putting on the armor of God”. It primarily dealt with the Word Among Us meditation on that, which contained the following:

Look at this passage again, and identify the instruments of battle that Paul lists: a breastplate, boots, a shield, a helmet, and finally a sword. Did you notice that only one is a weapon? The rest are meant for protection against attack. Notice, too, the posture that Paul tells the Ephesians to take up: They are to “stand firm,” ready to “resist” evil when it comes at them, and to “stand fast” whenever they are attacked (Ephesians 6:11,13,14).

Why is this important? Because there is a battle going on all around us, and we need to be aware of it. But our calling in life is not to wage war against enemy forces. Our calling is to build the kingdom of God, keeping our eyes on Jesus, not on our enemies. We simply need this armor to protect us when the devil tries to wear us down.

What about you? Where is your focus? On your enemies? Or on all the good that you can do? People need you to show them the way to Jesus—far more than they need to see another superhero!

To me, this is very appropos to the discussion since it so often in believing that we are to be on the spiritual offensive that we end up ignoring our true calling.

The second place in the LOTH that called to me this morning was the final verse from the Canticle of Zecharia:

In the tender compassion of our Lord
The dawn from on high shall break upon us,
to shine on those who dwell in darkness
And the shadow of death,
And to guide our feet into the way of peace.

If we are willing to rest in that compassion of God, we can be delivered from that sense of darkness into a sense of peace, helping others to find it by sensing ours.

Finally, and perhaps most powerfully because of following up on those other two, was the initial intercession:

Son of God, you showed us the Father’s love,
–reveal him to men and women through the love we show toward one another.

Again, there are surely times when we must stand up for those who are being oppressed but our primary calling is to model the peace of Christ. As the Apostle John stated, you can’t claim to love the God you can’t see if you don’t love the neighbor you can see. There are a great many of those beating people over the head with encyclicals and catechisms who claim to be doing so out of love, but the tone almost always betrays an ego power game that doesn’t match the claim.

You may be able to beat someone into submission, but you can’t beat them into transformation. Submission comes from fear; transformation comes from love. Love comes from gratitude and until one sees that modelled one almost surely will respond defensively and without the submission of love.

Far too wordy (as usual ) but there has been much for me to ponder this morning.

Peace,

 

[Joysong]

You may be able to beat someone into submission, but you can’t beat them into transformation. Submission comes from fear; transformation comes from love. Love comes from gratitude and until one sees that modelled one almost surely will respond defensively and without the submission of love.

Or they may live only by the letter, devoid of love, and become clones of the ones who beat them into submission. Very nice post, John. Lots to think about.

In my own journey, the only thing that kept me from sinning mortally was utter gratitude to God for all the gifts He has bestowed on me. As I replayed the litany of His gifts in my mind, it was impossible to offend the One who was so loving to me. As psalm 100 goes, Enter His gates with thanksgiving …

 

[ncjohn]

From this morning’s first reading
reading from Isaiah 42:

Thus says the LORD:
Here is my servant whom I uphold,
my chosen one with whom I am pleased,
upon whom I have put my spirit;
he shall bring forth justice to the nations,
not crying out, not shouting,
not making his voice heard in the street.
a bruised reed he shall not break,
and a smoldering wick he shall not quench…

I could not help but think of what we’re discussing here when I heard this at Mass last night and this morning.

“Not crying out, not shouting, not making his voice heard in the street.”
“A bruised reed he shall not break, and a smoldering wick he shall not quench”

This prophecy of what Jesus would look like and how he would pursue building the kingdom is, to me, the perfect example of how we are to proceed ourselves. In fact, it brings quickly to mind St. Francis’s counsel to “Preach the gospel always; use words if necessary.”

I’m probably as sensitive to this as I am from having been one of those “smoldering wicks” whose faith was all but stamped out by the “do gooders” who were always at the ready to foist off their “gotcha” God on me. I left the Church for many years and had they been there at the door when I cautiously ventured back in I would have been gone in a heartbeat with that wick totally quenched.

Instead I too encountered a priest and a community who took Jesus at his word and took great care with the fragile souls of his wounded sheep when they would take a chance on straying into the pasture. I learned from their gentle ways and then, because they had earned credibility to me, could listen to the words of love from God Himself that they spoke.

I hope I haven’t broken too many of His bruised reeds along the way, or scared off any of His wounded sheep, though I know that I too am fully capable of indulging my own ego to make my voice heard on the street.

I must decrease, that He might increase.

 

[Joysong]

Interesting, John. Our church had the second reading which was from Isaiah 55. I don’t know why there were two options for the first and second readings, but I think the one you quoted is the more fitting to coincide with the Baptism of the Lord.

Something tells me that having worn the shoes of the smoldering wick, you are now “able to comfort those with the same comfort you received.” What a transformation!

God bless,
Carole

 

[Joysong]

John, speaking of coincidental readings, when I read the evening prayer (LOTH) yesterday, I was struck by the words in psalm 112:

The wicked man sees and is angry, “grinds his teeth” and fades away; the desire of the wicked leads to doom.

I think the timing of this psalm is remarkable, and I believe God is really saying some things about anger. I wasn’t feeling up to posting it yesterday, though. These winter illnesses don’t leave much energy for sharing, even the things of God.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I wondered what this thread is all about, and I think maybe, having read the posts, that I “get it”. Possibly what I am about to say will simply mark me as one condemned, but I am going to say it.

I deeply appreciate and admire those peaceful and contemplative souls who, in this life, find true repose in the hands of Our Lord. I often wish I could be like that. Perhaps I could be, but I tend to doubt it. I think I’ll likely struggle until God tells me to give it up.

I think this. When it came time for my confirmation, there was no doubt whatever in my mind that I would choose the name “Patrick”. I can’t explain it, really, but I just knew that was my proper confirmation name. Sometime afterward (I don’t know why I didn’t ask him before, I asked my father (whose first and second names were the same as my own) what his confirmation name was. “Francis”, he responded, “after St. Francis of Assisi”.

I know it sounds odd to say I was stunned, but that revelation gave me perhaps more insight into my father than anything else. He was a very gentle man; one who let misfortune roll over him like a wave, but who was sometimes almost crushed by those waves. St. Francis of Assisi, who owned nothing, who rebuilt a ruined chapel with his own hands, who tamed the Wolf of Gubbio and spoke to the birds and thought of the sun as his brother; one of the most gentle and peaceful of all souls who was ever on this earth. It was as if I had suddenly met my father for the first time.

And it gave me some insight into myself, I think. Patrick, a slave who escaped then returned to (as legend anyway has it) destroy the pagan shrines and drive the snakes out of Ireland. And I thought “Is that how I saw myself then, as a child?” (We were younger then when confirmed than now.) I wondered and wondered and wondered what the significance of that might be. Why did I choose Patrick instead of Francis? Was it because I was a sort of turbulent fellow; given to argument, even then, without knowing it, intent on honing skills for verbal combat later in life? Did I know I would later train myself by my education for it? And what did that tell myself about me?

My wife, upon reading a devotional work having to do with our names, stated the opinion of the writer that our names are, in effect, written for all eternity for us. Not just the names we choose, like confirmation names, but our baptismal names. She asked me how I chose “Patrick” and which, of the “St. James” (my first name) was I named for? Did I know? I told her, truthfully, that when I was a child I studied the life of St. James “the greater” and knew almost nothing about St. James “the less”, and told her “the greater”. She laughed and said “well that fits”. St. James “the greater” is called the “Son of Thunder” and evidently had a serious temper that he overcame with difficulty. He went to Spain and a shrine there is dedicated to him; Santiago de Compostela. “Santiago!” was the war cry of Spanish crusaders who fought the Moors, and was, by the Spanish, dubbed “Matamoros”, or “Moorslayer”. St. Francis once sought martyrdom at the hands of the Muslims in Egypt. I asked my father,then, who was at the time still living, which St. James was his patron. “St. James the Less” was his answer. “The Moorslayer” on the one hand, and the “Martyr by Desire” on the other.

And I do argue. I do it in CAF and I do it in life. My very occupation is argumentation. I suppose I am one for whom the “gnashing of teeth” is omnipresent, like the sound of cicadas on a summer night. I admit I like to do it. I admit the sound of gnashing is almost like the sound of a fire bell to the retired fire horses of old. And I admit I don’t like to let go.

Perhaps this overly long post is tedious, even irritating to those who have learned true repose of soul. Perhaps I fundamentally “don’t get it” even though I have certainly known people who have the serenity that the posters on this thread have so far expressed. I admire that, I truly do. I often wish I could emulate it. But then, some “fire bell” rings, and it’s sword time.

I guess I will have to say that I find it difficult to be any other way, and am inclined to think maybe part of my “salvation history” will be chasing snakes, not taming the Wolf of Gubbio, a task which perhaps God has assigned to others better suited for it,and perhaps purer souls all things considered. But I wonder if maybe sometimes it adds to someone’s life to see a snake chased. I don’t know, but suspect sometimes it does.

Perhaps you who have posted thus far will accept it that perhaps some of the flowers in God’s garden have thorns because perhaps they were intended to have thorns for whatever purpose God had in allowing thorns to exist at all.

Of your “vocations” I have no doubt at all. Of my own, I will always wonder. But I think perhaps wondering is part of the very nature of a soul like my own.

No one needs to respond to this, though I have no objection to it.

 

[brigid12]

It seems to me that it would be very easy to avoid some threads/forums due to a misplaced/erroneous/ sense of self-righteousness rather than a loving and humble realization that “there but for the grace of God, go I”. The bunker mentality is a mentality that, IMHO, we need to avoid unless we, personally and in prayer, have felt the Spirit tell us individually, that we need to have this mentality for our best spiritual growth and the best spiritual growth of all who come into contact with our evangelization. Now, I certainly totally respect that your discernment in prayer, Joysong, has been thus and am very glad, too, that InLight has discerned somewhat differently (for the spiritual benefit of the posters/lurkers to these theads).

Just my :twocents: that may very well be very wrong, but one made, I hope, with real love and respect.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Ridgerunner,

What an interesting post! I thought about it a lot, and wonder if you are receiving a call to transform? Yes, St. James was one of two Sons of Thunder, who wanted to rain fire and brimstone on the unfriendly Samaritans who were not receiving Jesus. Our Lord corrected them, saying they did not know what spirit they were. Of course, they “didn’t know.” Not then, but much later they DID.

We find these most beautiful words in the Epistle of St. James, as he was teaching from experience that “wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then peaceable, moderate, docile, in harmony with good things, full of mercy and good fruits, without judging.” Very powerful, and coming from a man who was tempted to anger but overcame it.

I really believe that is the very purpose of this thread, and the invitation that the Lord issues to me, first of all, and then to all of us when we are tempted to “gnash our teeth” over situations that we should probably just bow out of — for the spiritual health of our souls.

I don’t know much about St. Patrick, but I have the sense that when the moment is right, you will gain a special insight into the heart of this saint that will powerfully change your life and inspire you to follow in his footsteps. There is a lovely song that we sing in Church, called St. Patrick’s Breastplate, which reveals a saint very committed to Christ. In part:

Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down, Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.

 

[brigid12]

I wondered what this thread is all about, and I think maybe, having read the posts, that I “get it”. Possibly what I am about to say will simply mark me as one condemned, but I am going to say it.

I deeply appreciate and admire those peaceful and contemplative souls who, in this life, find true repose in the hands of Our Lord. I often wish I could be like that. Perhaps I could be, but I tend to doubt it. I think I’ll likely struggle until God tells me to give it up.

I think this. When it came time for my confirmation, there was no doubt whatever in my mind that I would choose the name “Patrick”. I can’t explain it, really, but I just knew that was my proper confirmation name. Sometime afterward (I don’t know why I didn’t ask him before, I asked my father (whose first and second names were the same as my own) what his confirmation name was. “Francis”, he responded, “after St. Francis of Assisi”.

I know it sounds odd to say I was stunned, but that revelation gave me perhaps more insight into my father than anything else. He was a very gentle man; one who let misfortune roll over him like a wave, but who was sometimes almost crushed by those waves. St. Francis of Assisi, who owned nothing, who rebuilt a ruined chapel with his own hands, who tamed the Wolf of Gubbio and spoke to the birds and thought of the sun as his brother; one of the most gentle and peaceful of all souls who was ever on this earth. It was as if I had suddenly met my father for the first time.

And it gave me some insight into myself, I think. Patrick, a slave who escaped then returned to (as legend anyway has it) destroy the pagan shrines and drive the snakes out of Ireland. And I thought “Is that how I saw myself then, as a child?” (We were younger then when confirmed than now.) I wondered and wondered and wondered what the significance of that might be. Why did I choose Patrick instead of Francis? Was it because I was a sort of turbulent fellow; given to argument, even then, without knowing it, intent on honing skills for verbal combat later in life? Did I know I would later train myself by my education for it? And what did that tell myself about me?

My wife, upon reading a devotional work having to do with our names, stated the opinion of the writer that our names are, in effect, written for all eternity for us. Not just the names we choose, like confirmation names, but our baptismal names. She asked me how I chose “Patrick” and which, of the “St. James” (my first name) was I named for? Did I know? I told her, truthfully, that when I was a child I studied the life of St. James “the greater” and knew almost nothing about St. James “the less”, and told her “the greater”. She laughed and said “well that fits”. St. James “the greater” is called the “Son of Thunder” and evidently had a serious temper that he overcame with difficulty. He went to Spain and a shrine there is dedicated to him; Santiago de Compostela. “Santiago!” was the war cry of Spanish crusaders who fought the Moors, and was, by the Spanish, dubbed “Matamoros”, or “Moorslayer”. St. Francis once sought martyrdom at the hands of the Muslims in Egypt. I asked my father,then, who was at the time still living, which St. James was his patron. “St. James the Less” was his answer. “The Moorslayer” on the one hand, and the “Martyr by Desire” on the other.

And I do argue. I do it in CAF and I do it in life. My very occupation is argumentation. I suppose I am one for whom the “gnashing of teeth” is omnipresent, like the sound of cicadas on a summer night. I admit I like to do it. I admit the sound of gnashing is almost like the sound of a fire bell to the retired fire horses of old. And I admit I don’t like to let go.

Perhaps this overly long post is tedious, even irritating to those who have learned true repose of soul. Perhaps I fundamentally “don’t get it” even though I have certainly known people who have the serenity that the posters on this thread have so far expressed. I admire that, I truly do. I often wish I could emulate it. But then, some “fire bell” rings, and it’s sword time.

I guess I will have to say that I find it difficult to be any other way, and am inclined to think maybe part of my “salvation history” will be chasing snakes, not taming the Wolf of Gubbio, a task which perhaps God has assigned to others better suited for it,and perhaps purer souls all things considered. But I wonder if maybe sometimes it adds to someone’s life to see a snake chased. I don’t know, but suspect sometimes it does.

Perhaps you who have posted thus far will accept it that perhaps some of the flowers in God’s garden have thorns because perhaps they were intended to have thorns for whatever purpose God had in allowing thorns to exist at all.

Of your “vocations” I have no doubt at all. Of my own, I will always wonder. But I think perhaps wondering is part of the very nature of a soul like my own.

No one needs to respond to this, though I have no objection to it.

Good for you and may He be with you! I admire anyone who can stand up for Him with the knowledge that it’s “sword time” (this said by one of the super-chickens of all time). I really admire St. Patrick (St. Brigid was supposedly “taught” by him, altho’ she would have been very young) and think St. Patrick’s breastplate is wonderful (I only hope that he had something to do with it’s writing).

 

[Joysong]

Brigid12:

… and think St. Patrick’s breastplate is wonderful (I only hope that he had something to do with it’s writing).

There were a number of additional links to St. Patrick’s Breastplate in the one I posted above, and I found this link which said that our Saint DID write it, and prayed it every day.

The singer also related that when St. Patrick first came to Ireland, the nation was entirely pagan, but when he died, it was largely Catholic. He was a powerful spiritual giant that brought salvation to this land. I would say that his legacy should be known for much more than the phenomena of ridding Ireland of snakes.

I believe that Ridgerunner has chosen a very great saint to model his life upon and ask his intercession.