Gnostic Elements in Early Catholicism

[jimmy]

I will answer the questions posed regarding gnostic elements in early Catholicism. Some elements are also found in Platonic and Pythagorean philosophy. However, none of the elements listed are found in scripture, which shows the gnostic and pagan influence on the development of early Catholicism.

Daniel, you are right that there was a strong influence of gnosticism on early Christianity. I have even heard that there are texts in the old Latin mass of the western Catholic Church which were of gnostic origin. There was also a large influence by Plato and the Platonists though. One of the major events in the conversion of St. Augustine was when he read the Platonists, Porphyri and Plotinus. Many of the early Christians like St. Clement of Alexandria and Origen and others (especially the Alexandrians) had a lot of Platonic philosophy within their worldview. These holy men are foundational for later Christian theology. This isn’t a bad thing. These men took the philosophy of Plato and tried to use it in a Christian way and tried to integrate it with their biblical faith. Christianity developed within the context of Greek society.

You can also look at Syriac Christianity too which developed within a different culture. These Christians had a more semitic world view. They developed their own forms of monasticism parallel to those of the Egyptian desert that were influenced less by the Greek philosophy.

Or you could look at the early missions to the far eastern countries like China. Christians started moving into China in the sixth century about. Some of the ancient texts of these Chinese Christians had strong influences from Bhuddism and other forms of Chinese mysticism. Like for example there are icons of Christ from this time period that look a lot like the Bhudda. Sadly these Christians underwent heavy persecution and they died out. There are still Christian Churches within India that date back to early Christianity that have a strong influence from the eastern religions. You can check out the Christians of Kerala.

I would like to point out that the use of Chrism is used within scripture for blessings. For example, in the epistle of James it speaks of using Chrism for the purpose of blessing and praying for those who are dying. The Jews would annoint their kings with Chrism.

Justafool, we are willing to dialogue with you and we really don’t care if you disagree but lets do it in line with the facts of history. We offer you a historical view of gnosticism and all you want to do is insult us.

 

[LionHeart777]

God says to love all

j.a.f.,

was this an idea you took from Scripture or was this “hidden knowledge”?

I think loving all can be deduced from natural law, but you said “God says…” I’m no professional scholar, but this doesn’t sound very gnostic to me.

 

[Justafool]

Jimmy

I have a hard enough time communicating without others putting words in my mouth. Please do not do it too often. It might confuse me.

Here is my original statement and your twisted reply.

I said,
“They though that miracles were untrue because they went against nature and physics as we know it today. They thought that if Jesus was God then after the resurrection he would have stayed --the time of the end is at hand-- and guided mankind instead of leaving evil here and taking a holiday.

Seems logical to me.”

You said,
“Quote:

First of all, the gnostics didn’t know physics as it is known today so no they did not argue against miracles based on modern physics. Their arguement against Jesus was the claim that He was God because God could not associate with matter because matter was evil. There were some who believed that there were two gods, one good and one evil. Jesus was the good god who came to emancipate man from the material world which was created by the evil god.

Quote:
Seems logical to me.

The idea of two gods seems logical to you? You have simply moved back to the pagan concept of the gods, which is a completely different concept from God.

You will note your error. I do not see where I mention two Gods.​

================

Quote: I said
"A good example was the fall of Eve. Christians did not think it a good thing while Gnostics thought that man, without the moral sense that eating of the tree gave, would have been the evil thing.

God agreed with the Gnostics on this or obviously God’s will would have been thwarted and that is impossible.

You sais
"You are going to have to give a reference for this. But the fact is that the gnostics rejected the OT because they rejected the god of the OT as evil. “

As any decent and moral person would. Genocide is evil.

Are you asking that I confirm that God’s will cannot be thwarted?
Seriously?

“On the contrary, Christianity professes that morality is conformity with the commands of God. “

Those commands are in his head. If eating of the tree of knowledge --to be as gods knowing etc. then that is much deeper understanding of morals that a few commandments.

Regards
DL

 

[Justafool]

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gsearch.html?q=gnostic&x=14&y=9

Good reading and history here showing the early days and the diversity of Christianity and Gnostics.

Regards
DL

 

[Justafool]

We should stick to gnosticism. The resurrection and other aspects of Christianity are a seperate issue and to discuss them here would take things way of track. It is also impossible to discuss all this stuff in one discussion.

Yes. I reviewed some and find more interest here in history whereas I go more for philosophy and issues.

I will have to see if my contribution goes to 0.

Regards
DL

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

…My view as confirmed by the God I found, is that there is only one destination after physical death. Heaven or if you will, the Godhead.
his is more of what we would call today, a cosmic consciousness where we all join with God while still retaining our individual consciousness. In this we have no choice. Many do not like this notion because they like the idea of retribution. This is an evil human trait.

I agree with Christian scripture that says that it is God’s will that no soul should be lost. None are or God’s will would be thwarted and that is impossible for God. He always get’s his way. No purgatorie and no hell.

Regards
DL

You are correct in saying gnostics believed everyone eventually goes to the pleroma (gnostic heaven). Origen was condemned for saying this, and Gregory of Nyssa was not condemned although he believed the same thing. Clement of Alexandria and Isaac the Syrian also taught the same, as well as Basil of Cesarea, Didymus the Blind, Gregory of Nazianzus, and others. However, cleansing after death was part of the process, following the ideas of the pagan Greeks (Plato in Book 10, The Republic) and Romans (Virgil’s Aenead).

Cosmic consciousness is the goal of new age gnostics, but the common idea is that individuality is lost between each death and rebirth.

 

[Justafool]

This is accurate. The gnostics believed that the Jewish God was a subordinate god, the Demiurge, who was evil. They are dualist and utterly whacked…

James

I don’t know about that. They too needed the Christian equivalent to Satan.
If Christians can make up make believe characters Gnostic can too.

Everybody other than Christians are whacked statements sound like what people were saying about Christianity when it started. Nothing like a universal religion that excludes 3/4 of the world. Keep your mind closed like that and you will never understang Gnostics.

Regards
DL

 

[diggerdomer]

I don’t know about that. They too needed the Christian equivalent to Satan.
If Christians can make up make believe characters Gnostic can too.

Everybody other than Christians are whacked statements sound like what people were saying about Christianity when it started. Nothing like a universal religion that excludes 3/4 of the world. Keep your mind closed like that and you will never understang Gnostics.

Regards
DL

DL,

Sorry I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.

Can you read what you typed, then clarify?

Thanks

 

[Justafool]

You are correct in saying gnostics believed everyone eventually goes to the pleroma (gnostic heaven). Origen was condemned for saying this, and Gregory of Nyssa was not condemned although he believed the same thing. Clement of Alexandria and Isaac the Syrian also taught the same, as well as Basil of Cesarea, Didymus the Blind, Gregory of Nazianzus, and others. However, cleansing after death was part of the process, following the ideas of the pagan Greeks (Plato in Book 10, The Republic) and Romans (Virgil’s Aenead).

Cosmic consciousness is the goal of new age gnostics, but the common idea is that individuality is lost between each death and rebirth.

There is a mental cleansing after death or if one is persistent enough to touch the mind of God without dying. It is a quick process and is basically self administered as knowledge and wisdom forces ones self to adjust any and all (defects). Individuality is never lost. Each soul is forever unique.

By rebirth, do you mean a physical rebirth as in reincarnation?

Regards
DL

 

[Justafool]

This is accurate. The gnostics believed that the Jewish God was a subordinate god, the Demiurge, who was evil. They are dualist and utterly whacked…

James

The way I understand it, Gnostics did not want to believe God responsible for evil. They then invented the Demiurge to be the representative of evil.

This is equivalent to Christianity not wanting their God to be the creator of evil and they invented Satan to take that role.

Satan = Demiurge

Gnostics did not take their own scriptures literally and used these invented names more for theatre than for real belief in supernatural entities. They did not believe in the supernatural the way the early Christians did and in silly cases still do.

Regards
DL

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

There is a mental cleansing after death or if one is persistent enough to touch the mind of God without dying. It is a quick process and is basically self administered as knowledge and wisdom forces ones self to adjust any and all (defects). Individuality is never lost. Each soul is forever unique.

By rebirth, do you mean a physical rebirth as in reincarnation?

Regards
DL

I am more interested in what the early gnostics believed in relation to early Catholicism in some ECF’s. In the Pistis Sophia, the main Valentinian text, the cleansing after death involved suffering by fire before being reborn into another body or judged by the Virgin of Light as worthy to enter the Eternal Light. Buddhism and new age religion today teaches soul splitting before each physical rebirth so individual identity is lost. The goal of achieving perfection in Catholicism is similar to the acheivement of the pneumatics who then pass directly to the pleroma.

 

[jimmy]

You are correct in saying gnostics believed everyone eventually goes to the pleroma (gnostic heaven). Origen was condemned for saying this, and Gregory of Nyssa was not condemned although he believed the same thing. Clement of Alexandria and Isaac the Syrian also taught the same, as well as Basil of Cesarea, Didymus the Blind, Gregory of Nazianzus, and others. However, cleansing after death was part of the process, following the ideas of the pagan Greeks (Plato in Book 10, The Republic) and Romans (Virgil’s Aenead).

Cosmic consciousness is the goal of new age gnostics, but the common idea is that individuality is lost between each death and rebirth.

Origen was condemned mainly for three points. First, because of his view of the pre-existence of souls. Second, and connected to the first, the apokatastasis. This is not directly due to the fact of universal salvation. It is mainly due to the helenistic philosophy behind it. Third was due to his Christology which was very similar to the Nestorian Christology in a lot of ways.

don’t know about that. They too needed the Christian equivalent to Satan.
If Christians can make up make believe characters Gnostic can too.

Unlike gnosticism, Christianity is not dualistic. Satan is not the opposite of God. There is no opposite of God.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Origen was condemned mainly for three points. First, because of his view of the pre-existence of souls. Second, and connected to the first, the apokatastasis. This is not directly due to the fact of universal salvation.

May I ask, do you believe in universal salvation?

 

[annem]

1. The Catholic view of purgatory came from Second Temple Judaism and has nothing to do with any Gnostic cult. Macabees shows this.
   REPLY: The single quote from Macabees shows Hellenistic influence on Judaism that also inflenced gnosticism/early Catholicism.

My goodness, you do need to do some reading. Start with Macabees, which will show you how Jews at time felt about being Hellenized. Then try Hengel’s “Judaism and Hellenism”

REPLY: Gnosticism was pervasive in the Roman empire and took on Christian aspects especially in Egypt and Syria/Palestine.

Then, again, you do not know what you are talking about. The Gnostic schools were small and elite. Not pervasive. Try reading Petrement’s “A Separate God”

REPLY: The Protoevangelium was written after the Pistis Sophia.

False. Vast majority of scholars date Pistis to around 250. So, sorry, but you are very wrong. Would you like a list of books on the subject?

]

 

[annem]

Virgin birth was built into many older religions and old Gnostics as well as myself see the Bible as a consolidation of many of the customs and fashions of older religious thought.
Being naturalists, we know that virgins cannot give birth.

Who wrote this, by the way? I have too little time to go back and look it up. However, this one is a real howler.

The claim that there were a lot of virgin births–just like Mary!–was common during the old ‘History of Religions’ theory circa 1890-1930 or so. Only…ta dum…it’s utterly wrong. Not a single one of the virgins who were raped claimed to go on being virgins after they were raped.

Not at all the claim of Christianity.

May God grant you miracles, Annem 1

 

[annem]

Gnostics believed that all had individual access to God, not just a few

Whoever wrote this in is tragic need of education. No, it was the Christians who said all people had access to God. The Gnostics were small, elite schools. Want me to list some books on the subject?

May God grant you miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

there was a strong influence of gnosticism on early Christianity.

Sorry, Christianity was around for a hundred years and had all the major dogmas in place before the first Gnostic appeared.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

Their claim to fame as it were was using the same scripture and giving it a different interpretation and then trying to glean some real meaning from it.

Now think this through. Clearly, they were not “using the same scripture” because the Gnostics were writing whole new gospels, pretty much out of thin air. They only swiped the names of various apostles to add to them because Christian ideas were spreading like wildfire through the empire. Remember Pliny?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

God does not do half measures. If He were to forgive sin at all then he would forgive all sin and close the gates of an empty hell forever.

Are you just be sarcastic or are you serious?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

I will answer the questions posed regarding gnostic elements in early Catholicism. Some elements are also found in Platonic and Pythagorean philosophy. However, none of the elements listed are found in scripture, which shows the gnostic and pagan influence on the development of early Catholicism.n.

Gnostics arrived a hundred years after all the major dogmas of Christianity were in place. Second Temple Jews, as all the archaeological and historical research has shown, were fierce monotheists, not dabblers in Hellenistic philosophy. Remember the two wars they fought? Recall the archaeological evidence?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem ,