Lazarus went to Abraham’s bosom but there is no mention of purification needed there. And there is no idea in the New Testament of purgatory or a place after death where one goes to be purified, as one finds in Plato and in Catholic purgatory, and in gnostic rivers of fire before being judged as purified by the Virgin of Light.
Why do you think Christ only meant it about loving your enemies?
Gnostics didn’t arrive until a hundred years after Christianity.
Daniel, why don’t you believe me about the Gnostics? Really, all you have to do is get Petrement’s “A Separate God” which everyone considers the most important book on the Gnostics.
Then why did Jesus say: “There are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it” Matt 19
Celibacy seems off the topic of this Thread, but since you brought it up, there’s really no basis to assume Paul was a life-long celibate. When he wrote 1 Cor he was celibate, but we have no idea if that was because he was never married, or a widower, or divorced.
It’s occurred to me that you have never read the letter of Ignatius. Dated to about 110. Or 1 Clement, dated to about 95 AD. They both show quite clearly a functioning, organized church, and yes, there certainly is a Catholic sense of suffering, not to mention a bishop in Rome with authority.
Early quotes:
Read the context of “be perfect as your Father is perfect” and you will see it about love for enemies. Paul’s reference to perfection is about unity not the catholic/Greek/gnostic idea of perfection/purification through contemplation/asceticism/penance/suffering/purgatory.
Not at all. David like Job, was speaking of his own personal sin and remorse over his sins of adultery/murder. He was not stating a theology of inherited sin. If so Ezekiel did not agree.
“death spread to all men, because ALL SINNED” Rom 5Early quotes:
Paul: Through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned Rom 5
Paul again: As in Adan all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Cor 15:33
Paul again: I know that in me (that is, my flesh) nothing good lives Rom 7
The human race…from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent. Justin Martyr 160–1:243
May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
I have read these letters. If Ignatius went to be martyred willingly and had a faithful choice to avoid it, he was indeed misguided. He should have been hindered by the church if possible and without denial of Christ.It’s occurred to me that you have never read the letter of Ignatius. Dated to about 110. Or 1 Clement, dated to about 95 AD. They both show quite clearly a functioning, organized church, and yes, there certainly is a Catholic sense of suffering, not to mention a bishop in Rome with authority.
here is a quote from one of Ignatius’ letters. He has been condemned for his Christianity to be eaten by beasts in Rome. See if this doesn’t sound exactly like a Catholic saint, and all before a single Gnostic arrived:
Here is Ignatius:“I am writing to all the Chruches to tell them all that I die willingly for God, as long as you do not hinder me. I beseech you not to show me unreasonable kindness. Allow me to become the food of the wild beasts, for through them I will reach God. I am God’s wheat; let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found Christ’s pure bread. Better still, entice the wild beasts to become my tomb and to leave no part of my body behind. Then, when I am dead, I will no longer be a burden to anyone. Only then shall I truly be a disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world will not see so much as my body. Entreat Christ on my behalf that, through these instruments, I may become God’s sacrifice”.
you can google the letter of Ignatius and 1 Clement and read them right now. I’ll bet they’ll clear up a lot of doubts.
May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
Yours is a catholic/gnostic reading into scripture. No where does Jesus or Paul say celibates are more holy than married having an active sex life. Celibacy is a gift and not superior to married Christians. Paul makes clear no gift is superior to others.
There were most certainly docetic/gnostic “Christians” during the writing of the New Testament. They were the ones who believed Christ did not come in the flesh.
Now annem, are saying Christ calls everyone to celibacy? This is very gnostic, even more than any Catholic I have heard from. There were some gnostics who taught no one could enter heaven unless they were celibate. Encratites of Syria were very extreme on this point, and this was a center of monastic development along wiht Egypt where gnosticism thrived.
Sorry, but I think you need to consider the entire context. Jesus gives the beatitudes, which are the things God promises to those who want to be Christians. Then he gives injunctions of what we must do if we want to live as Christians. At the very end, in a summation of all that he wants from us, he says: 'Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect." Here is Matthew 5, which I have hacked to pieces for the sake of brevity:.
omans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned–
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 C***onsequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.***
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.I don’t think the saints who went to their death because of the Romans were misguided, but then I am a Catholic. And the martyrs continue. Just the last century, there were more Catholics martyred for their faith than at any time in history, 40 million according to one book.
Well, it’s certainly not Gnostic because there weren’t any Gnostics around at the time.
