Gnosticism: The True Traditional Catholicism

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M-Dent said:
Gnosticism

A tough sell when the pagans got you beat! 🙂
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Well, we’re not alone. We’ve got some the Buddhists and some of the Hindus “on our side”, and of course, many Neo-Pagans.
 
Windmill said:
Jonathan,

What exactly about Catholicism are you frustrated with?
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Mostly it’s the issue of salvation. I can’t stand the fact that most people are going to hell. That depresses me. That many are called, few are chosen, and that the road is so narrow, like a privileged lottery God set up.
 
What Jon is experiencing is quite common. It is called “scrupulousity”. Generally, it is a feeling of intense failure and fear of failure, caused by what is seen as strict rigidity. The scrupulous will view any breech of ‘law’ as a grave and mortal sin. The Sacrament of Penance is seen as a trial and an ordeal, a reminder of how imperfect we are, and how worthy we are of Hell. This is the impediment to the Faith that plagued Martin Luther, and it was this impediment that nearly caused my wife to leave the Faith. The idea of salvation through faith apart from works is appealing to one who views their works as atrociously sinful. It can be assumed then, that the idea of separate gnosis is quite appealing to someone who is fearful of failure.

This feeling, to me, is an infiltration of protestant ideology: that all sins are equal, and humans are totally depraved. This is irreconcilable with Scripture and Tradition: man was called “good” by God, and therefore cannot be totally depraved. Likewise, we see sins that “cannot be forgiven, in this world or the next”, which are apart from sins that can be forgiven. This is why the Church maintains the distinction between mortal sins and venial sins. I was confirmed under the understanding that only mortal sins, which are committed out of spite for a God that gave His only Son to suffer and die, could separate us from the Sanctifying Grace that will ultimately ensure us a spot on the Heavenly Lineup (or Book of Life, if you will). If we commit a sin that basically says “up yours” to God, we have rejected the Grace that was given us. Sins that are mortal sins (as far as I’m aware) are abortion, murder, contraception, adultery, homosexuality, fornication, and failing to fulfill an obligation (Mass, Holy Day of Obligation, abstinence on Lenten Fridays, fasting before Eucharist) for no good reason. These sins are especially heinous because they are committed with complete foreknowledge of their gravity and their repercussions. With a contrite and grieving heart, we confess our sins in Penance, we perform our penance, and our Grace is restored.

JC, if you have fallen in and out of God’s Grace (His Sanctifying Grace, that is), than you must have committed several mortal sins. Judging from your tone, that doesn’t sound like the case. The Sacraments were established by Christ to provide us with actual graces to keep us from mortally sinning, and bring us closer to Him.

Also, I suggest you read the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome (particularly the versions located on www.newadvent.org)). The influence of the Pauline epistles and the four canonical Gospels are clear. The influence of your gnostic gospels is lacking. Explain how, if gnosticism is the original Catholicism, two early leaders of the Church didn’t reflect on its teachings? Why did early Christians (of early second century) use passages from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but not Thomas and other gnostic writers. Of all the lists of canonical texts (of which there are many) there are no gnostic gospels mentioned…why is this? Because the Church, as defenders of the faith, rejected its claims, in keeping with the Faith of the Apostles.

Likewise, I suggest you re-read Acts. What is it that debates that the Faith should be taught to the Gentiles but a Council? What is it that decides that the specifications of Jewish Law need not be followed by Gentile converts but a Council? In both of those situations, the arguements are settled by an infallible decree by St.Peter. So then it is a council, with the approval of the Bishop of Rome that is necessary to promote matters of faith and morals. Several Councils, and the Bishop of Rome, declared gnosticism a heresy, in keeping with the pattern established by the Apostles, as evidenced in Acts.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
Mostly it’s the issue of salvation. I can’t stand the fact that most people are going to hell. That depresses me. That many are called, few are chosen, and that the road is so narrow, like a privileged lottery God set up.
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“Called” and “chosen” are words that Calvin used to spew his heresy of pre-destination. God calls on all of us to turn to Him…but its our choice to be chosen. Your system is no better. According to your world-view, those who don’t have the “inside-scoop” will not be saved. So, if 1/3th of the world’s population is Christian, 1/6 Muslim, and about 1/15th (if that) gnostic, then only 1/15th of the world’s population will be saved. That seems to be a bit harsher than Revelations claim that the number who enter Heaven will be beyond count.

Even assuming that reincarnation will eventually “save” the rest, the current maladies of a culture of death will all but quickly ensure that the rest of us miserable ignoramuses will perish without the “inside-scoop” at one point in our depressing lives.

I still find it interesting that Gnosticism grew out of the pagan Greeks, and you are attempting to reconcile it with Christianity.
 
True, but I’m terrified of going back to Catholicism. Every time I’ve gone back it’s been out of a feeling that I have to because it’s the truth, even if it’s a truth I dislike.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
True, but I’m terrified of going back to Catholicism. Every time I’ve gone back it’s been out of a feeling that I have to because it’s the truth, even if it’s a truth I dislike.
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And what is wrong with that feeling?

You were correct to have that feeling, that feeling was given to you by the Holy Ghost. If you have anything other than the truth, then it is a Lie, and we know where all lies come from, the Evil one. To knowingly reject the truth is Mortally sinful.

Why are you terrified of the truth?
 
Because this truth always makes me feel miserable and makes life dull, and a tremendous burden.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
Because this truth always makes me feel miserable and makes life dull, and a tremendous burden.
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24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Following* the* truth is not easy, and it is not relative to what we like and dislike. The truth is objective.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
Because this truth always makes me feel miserable and makes life dull, and a tremendous burden.
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You stated quite a while back that the Catholic teaching of Truth is that it is external to us, which is true (or in the formal definition I had to learn once: Truth is the correlation between objective reality and our perception or judgments about it). Jonathan: do you accept or reject that definition of truth?
 
I spoke to Nagoda on MSN, and he told me about how God IS Love, and so many other things, and that is what I am offending and denying. He’s right. I’ve prayed for forgiveness and will be going to Confession on Saturday. Also, that evil is the absence of God and that God isn’t filled with wrath. I noted that the worst thing that could happen to us is to lose God, even a teenie bit of God, and that was as far as God’s “wrath” goes - that when we deny Him, He respects our free will. Please pray for me.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
I spoke to Nagoda on MSN, and he told me about how God IS Love, and so many other things, and that is what I am offending and denying. He’s right. I’ve prayed for forgiveness and will be going to Confession on Saturday. Also, that evil is the absence of God and that God isn’t filled with wrath. I noted that the worst thing that could happen to us is to lose God, even a teenie bit of God, and that was as far as God’s “wrath” goes - that when we deny Him, He respects our free will. Please pray for me.
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I am extremely, extremely glad you are going to confession on Saturday. I will be praying for you Jonathan, please ask Our Lady for intercession, she will be with you.

Here is a good link for you:

catholic.org/frz/examen/

God Bless.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
A bit of a theory I’ve been inspired with is the possibility of an ecumenical dialogue between the Gnostic Church and the Roman Catholic Church, that could unite countless Christians by restoring Christianity to Her truest root - Gnosticism. So as to not write too much here are the basic points:
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Sooooooooooo…where have you guys been all this time? If Gnostic Christianity is the “true” Christianity surely we would have heard from y’all before “The Da Vinci Code.”
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
I spoke to Nagoda on MSN, and he told me about how God IS Love, and so many other things, and that is what I am offending and denying. He’s right. I’ve prayed for forgiveness and will be going to Confession on Saturday. Also, that evil is the absence of God and that God isn’t filled with wrath. I noted that the worst thing that could happen to us is to lose God, even a teenie bit of God, and that was as far as God’s “wrath” goes - that when we deny Him, He respects our free will. Please pray for me.
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:gopray2:
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
Well, there really are some things said about Gnosticism here I have to correct. Gnostics believe that the material world is inferior, yes. Evil? Not necessarily. There really is no such thing as “evil”. The Demiurge is believed to have created the world, and I usually specify further, the systems of the world, while the material is said to be created (in a number of Sophianic myths) out of the Sophia, so in that sense it’s not so much the material world that’s “evil”, but the systems of the world, which we can all agree are unjust.

It’s not at all depressing to me because it offers a way out, and it offers it right now. Christ taught us Love, Divine Love, as the means to gnosis which would overcome the Archons and Demiurge and the ways of the world. Through His example, which we are to follow, including His Crucifixion (naturally, not in a literal sense) we are led to a gnosis which overcomes the ways of the world and leads us into unity with the Father, and of course, with the aid of Our Mother the Holy Spirit.

I don’t have such a hard time viewing Jesus as a Gnostic during His time who defied the orthodox Judaic views.

Again, I don’t want anyone to be offended - but Catholicism has been mostly depressing for me. There were a few times when I was happy and the happiness was amazing, but most of the time was spent in a constant battle against sin with no relief in sight and the knowing that I would fail anyways, and was bound to sin again eventually, betraying God again and falling out of His Grace, i.e., into His Wrath. This always terrified, and many time not because I was afraid of God’s Wrath, but eventually because I simply didn’t want to offend Love and Justice itself. The guilt was unbearable, no matter what I said in the Confessional or what I tried. Even when I was in a state of Grace I was worrying about others. All this was constant, and took my attention away from school and everything else in my life. If this was so serious and so real and literal, then I felt I had no time to lose. I still feel like I wasted two or three years of my life while I was seriously practicing Catholicism.

Disclaimer: This was my personal experience and is obviously not applicable to everyone.
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Actually Gnostic teaching was all over the board and more than a few of the sects weren’t even Christian in nature. One common theme seemed to be that the world was a mistake, described by at least some of the groups as a cosmic abortion. Another fairly common theme was that Christ did not die for our salvation and in fact did not die at all as the aeon possessing the physical body of Jesus departed prior to physical death. Rather than obtain salvation, what Christ did was transmit to the inner circle the knowledge necessary to free the aeons within so that they might ascend in the pleroma. Not everyone was so blessed as to have a fragment of the divine within them. A third fairly common view was that there was more than one God, always at least two and sometimes up to 365 at least according to some of the groups.

Gnostic philosophy appeals to many today for the same reason it did in the past. It offers those who feel as though they are trapped in an alien world where they don’t belong something cling to and call their own.

Rubbish then and rubbish now. All the old heresies are coming back in force and have been for at least the past hundred years or so. They are no more valid now then when condemned in the past.

The difference now is that we are too politically correct to call them what they are and condemn them for being…

HERESIES PURE AND SIMPLE
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
I guess I’m trying to imagine the Church before the First Vatican Council, during the period of the Apostles. Before all the dogmas that were developed throughout the centuries.
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Then you must be rejecting St. Peter’s writings, and St. Pauls as well, as they clearly establish the same dogma set that is still with the churches East and West (and Oriental, and of course Indo-Syriac):
One God, the laying on of hands for apostolic succession, the replacement of the apostles in the 12 by election, The forgiveness of sins, the transubstatiation of the Eucharist, some concept of original sin, the need to submit to the magisterium, the need for batism, collegiality of the Apostles, the apointment of new apostolic churches, and many more elements of universal Orthodox & Catholic dogma (that which must be believed to be a member of these faiths) are buried in the writings of the “Literary Patriarchs of the New Testament”.

I’ve read several of the so-called Gnostic Gospels; some are gnostic, others merely non-canonical.

Many non-canonical works are sources for inspiration…

The Gospel of the Birth of Mary includes a good number of things held by tradition. Also a lot that isn’t. Similarly the Protoevangelion of John.

While I love the story of the young Jesus and the Clay Pidgeons on the Sabbath (I Infancy 15:1-15)… I am not willing to accept the whole of that text. It is insprational, but it is at odds with the canonical gospels due to their stating Christ’s public ministry begins in adulthood.

Gnosticicsm rejected the fundamental nature of Christ’s presence: to be the final sacrifice made for covenant between God and Man, and thus open the doors of heaven to all mankind, if they choose the path that leads to them.

Gnosis (Wisdom) IS part of Christianity… but it isn’t the key, merely the path, and the Gnostics took it for the key AND the path. Reflections of this exist still in the role of Eastern Deacons: “Wisdom, Be Attentive!” (Likewise, remnants of the Persecutions still exist: “The Doors! The Doors!” just before the eucharistic service begins… the point where the liturgy deviates massively from Judaism enough for outsiders to notice.)

Christ’s wisdom IS important, but without his sacrifice, St. Paul reminds us that it would be meaningless.
 
Jonathan_Cid said:
Because this truth always makes me feel miserable and makes life dull, and a tremendous burden.
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Jonathan, truth is always worth pursuing and worth living for. Our feelings aren’t a good guide, but Christ and his Church ARE. 🙂 Emotions are fine, but they’re nothing to live a life by.
 
ReConverted said:
Jonathan, truth is always worth pursuing and worth living for. Our feelings aren’t a good guide, but Christ and his Church ARE. 🙂 Emotions are fine, but they’re nothing to live a life by.
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That is so well-said, and so true. People allow themselves to be guided by their feelings, and not by moral values or by the truth. It’s a nice comfortable trap to fall into, and very easy to stay there.
 
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