Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[oliver109]

It is possible but for me it is very hard, living trying hard to avoid mortal sin is driving me to drink and depression.

 

[Flopfoot]

Better see a mental health professional

 

[oliver109]

That wont help, what will help is being certain that I will never choose Hell

 

[Fauken]

That wont help, what will help is being certain that I will never choose Hell

You won’t, with God’s grace and cooperating with it. But believing Hell doesn’t exist will not help. You can’t reject something you don’t believe exists, nor is an impossibility. If you’re having these struggles, I sincerely believe you should find a holy and orthodox priest and discuss this with. This is not something to be settled over the internet.

 

[PennyinCanada]

We are here to walk holding God’s hand, and to bring a blessing down on this earth. Start your day with that thought.

Stop negative thoughts from going around and round in your head. You have control over this. Sing songs from church, say prayers, give thanks. Don’t give negative thoughts free reign to go unchecked.

I go about my day never once worrying if I am going to be arrested. Are the police going to put me in handcuffs, are they going to break down my door, are they going to pull me over. Not once. I know there are people in jail. It’s not going to take over my thoughts.

 

[Gab123]

the church has not ever, in her entire 2,000 year history practiced what might be called “reverse canonization.” That is, a positive pronouncement than someone is in Hell.

I’m sure there are zillions of souls saved in heaven, but the Church has only officially canonized relatively few as models for us to emulate. The Church has never said anyone is specifically in hell; there’s no need to do that. It doesn’t mean there aren’t countless lost souls there.

That’s the historical record, my friend, there’s no sense arguing against it.

Nonsense again. The eternal condition of the damned us rooted in Scripture and has been the constant teaching of the Church.

The question before us is whether St Augustine was right—are there any actions that would entail neverending torment and torture, thwarting the will and love of God? The will of man thwarts the will and love of God?

Again, it is Jesus Christ who teaches it. The problem is that you are not reading the Scriptures very carefully…

 

[Magnanimity]

The church has canonized thousands. And yet, she has not ever positively said anyone to be damned—not Hitler, not Genghis Khan, not Stalin, Mao, Alexander the Great…no one. Silence.

I gave you numerous names of those who believe that God’s love wins (saves) all, in the end. You’ve replied by saying “nonsense.” That’s on you. Being anti-historical is the intellectual equivalent to being anti-science. I suggest that you read the Fathers and contemporary theologians on this issue. But it’s for you to decide whether or not to do the hard work…

All Catholics are free to hope for the salvation of all people, and I defy you to quote a council or a creed or a dogmatic pronouncement otherwise.

Good luck.

 

[Gab123]

The church has canonized thousands. And yet, she has not ever positively said anyone to be damned—not Hitler, not Genghis Khan, not Stalin, Mao, Alexander the Great…no one. Silence.

Again, the point of canonizing saints is to raise them up as role models. So your argument is pointless.

I gave you numerous names of those who believe that God’s love wins (saves) all, in the end

Nonsense. Those saints never claimed that there is no hell or that it is not eternal, or that there aren’t damned souls. It sounds like your source is the internet…

suggest that you read the Fathers and contemporary theologians on this issue.

Again, read what Jesus said. There are many many passages in Sacred Scripture. What part of this do you not understand:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.-Matt. 25:41

I would recommend staying clear of some modern theologians whose speculations against Church teaching will only pollute the mind. What you don’t want to do is put your faith in nincompoops who think they know better than Jesus.

St. Paul said:

do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived…

Are you saying Jesus and Paul were lying to scare people?

 

[Magnanimity]

Get reading, my friend. Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved?
You’ve got a long way to go.

 

[Gab123]

Get reading, my friend. Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved?
You’ve got a long way to go.

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves . . . To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” (CCC 1033)

Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (CCC 1035)

I would suggest you buy a Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study them carefully.

The devil is t r i c k y… and there’s a reason why Scripture warns that Satan can appear as an angel of light.

even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse Galatians 1:8

 

[Gab123]

All Catholics are free to hope for the salvation of all people, and I defy you to quote a council or a creed or a dogmatic pronouncement otherwise.

It’s rather pointless; better thing to do is to pray for the conversion of sinners.
In his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope , St. Pope John Paul II wrote that too often “preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell” (p. 183).

Concerning the eternal reality of hell and about those who go there the pope states:

“In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard” (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

Of course there are also tons of writings of the Early Church Fathers on the eternal damnation of the reprobate. And of course the Counci of Florence did not mince words about the eternal unquenching fires of hell and who will go there if they do not change their ways…

 

[Fauken]

How about too the Catechism of Trent?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13120c.htm

“The Reformers had not been slow in taking advantage of the situation; their popular tracts and catechisms were flooding every country and leading thousands of souls away from the Church. The Fathers of Trent, therefore, “wishing to apply a salutary remedy to this great and pernicious evil, and thinking that the definition of the principal Catholic doctrines was not enough for the purpose, resolved also to publish a formulary and method for teaching the rudiments of the faith, to be used by all legitimate pastors and teachers” (Cat. praef., vii). This resolution was taken in the eighteenth session (26 February, 1562) on the suggestion of St. Charles Borromeo; who was then giving full scope to his zealfor the reformation of the clergy. Pius IV entrusted the composition of the Catechism to four distinguished theologians: Archbishops Leonardo Marino of Lanciano and Muzio Calini of Zara, Egidio Foscarini, Bishop of Modena, and Francisco Fureiro, a Portuguese Dominican. Three cardinals were appointed to supervise the work.”

From the Catechism:

“Turning next to those who shall stand on His left, He will pour out His justice upon them in these words: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. The first words, depart from me, express the heaviest punishment with which the wicked shall be visited, their eternal banishment from the sight of God, unrelieved by one consolatory hope of ever recovering so great a good. This punishment is called by theologians the pain of loss, because in hell the wicked shall be deprived forever of the light of the vision of God. The words ye cursed, which follow, increase unutterably their wretched and calamitous condition. If when banished from the divine presence they were deemed worthy to receive some benediction, this would be to them a great source of consolation. But since they can expect nothing of this kind as an alleviation of their misery, the divine justice deservedly pursues them with every species of malediction, once they have been banished. The next words, into everlasting fire, express another sort of punishment, which is called by theologians the pain of sense, because, like lashes, stripes or other more severe chastisements, among which fire, no doubt, produces the most intense pain, it is felt through the organs of sense. When, moreover, we reflect that this torment is to be eternal, we can see at once that the punishment of the damned includes every kind of suffering.”

While we’re on the subject of denying Hell, here’s a question: during Mass, the consecration of the wine into the Precious Blood uses the words “Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my blood: the blood of the new and eternal covenant, poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins”. If all will ultimately be saved, then why isn’t it for all instead of many?

It’s because not everyone would want it. Because some would reject it. And what do you imagine happens to those who reject the sacrifice of Christ?

 

[Gab123]

While we’re on the subject of denying Hell, here’s a question: during Mass, the consecration of the wine into the Precious Blood uses the words “Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my blood: the blood of the new and eternal covenant, poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins ”.

Great point.
There are mountains of evidence, Scriptural, Councils, theology, private revelation etc…

Isn’t it something how easily people ignore the gospels and the very words of Christ? I think it is evidence of the seeds of the great apostasy, tangling it’s way into the minds of many.

The problem is people don’t read the Bible anymore, and instead read the Internet.

 

[Vico]

…

• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)

We know from the Council of Trent that:
(Denzinger 814)

Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema [cf. n. 797].

(Denzinger 797)

It [the Synod] furthermore declares that in adults the beginning of that justification must be derived from the predisposing grace [can. 3] of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from his vocation, whereby without any existing merits on their part they are called, so that they who by sin were turned away from God, through His stimulating and assisting grace are disposed to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and cooperating with the same grace [can. 4 and 5], in such wise that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself receiving that inspiration does not do nothing at all inasmuch as he can indeed reject it, nor on the other hand can he [can. 3] of his own free will without the grace of God move himself to justice before Him. Hence, when it is said in the Sacred Writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you” [Zach. 1:3], we are reminded of our liberty; when we reply: “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted” [Lam. 5:21], we confess that we are anticipated by the grace of God.

http://patristica.net/denzinger/#n800

 

[oliver109]

I think with regards to the words of Christ is not the parable of the foolish virgins contradicting the likes of the parable of the prodigal son? with the former you see people making a bad descicion and being punished for ever for it while in the latter you see someone making a bad descision and they are shown mercy and forgiveness. Why does God not show mercy on people who are not ready?

 

[Gab123]

Heed the warnings of the gospel. Trust in God’s mercy. As long as you are trying that is what matters. God wants to transform us from wretched sinners and sanctify us so that we become a reflection of Himself.

 

[Magnanimity]

That’s sweet Gab, it really is. I imagine you with your Bible and your trusty CCC believing that you can’t be led wrong with those two items. I kind of admire the innocent naïveté. But you have no idea who you’re talking to (me) - not what I’ve read or what I know. You also very clearly didn’t realize this was an open debate. You thought it was all settled dogma! Thank God that it isn’t. You owe it to yourself to ponder these issues more deeply. But best wishes to you no matter what. :+1:t3:

 

[Latin]

According to 1058, the whole Catholic Church is praying and asking God to save every one of us.

God’s vehement Universal Salvific Will is to save everyone.

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When we reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.

One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone. – Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.

.
Before Vatican II our theologians mostly focused on the line teaches only a few people saved.

At Vatican II and after our theologians started to focus on the line which teaches God saves everyone. – This is exactly the whole Catholic Church praying for, we all should believe what we are praying for.

It makes no difference how we cut it: For our salvation, the buck stops with God.
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Someone may say; only people goes to hell who are choose to go to hell by their free wills, but this doesn’t make any sense because when God has given us free wills, His duty of care is to provide us the knowledge and the aide of efficacious graces to use our free wills correctly. – Only an intellectually disabled person would choose hell.

.
THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza

The vocation to eternal life is supernatural, it surpasses the powers of human intellect and will, he must be predestined to that end by God.

God must direct us to this end by His power and grace.

Thus, predestination is a certain and infallible truth, revealed by Scripture and taught by the Catholic Church. End quote.

.
No one can be saved without predestined to heaven, there is no other way, God’s love and justice demands the fulfilment of 1058 by saving the entire human race.

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FIRST: No one rejects God’s gift of efficacious grace of His call to heaven, if anyone would reject it, God would instantly lose His omniscience, DE FIDE Dogma.
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SECOND: NO ONE can be saved without predestined to heaven, and NO ONE lose salvation who are predestined to heaven, DE FIDE Dogma.
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THIRD: God’s Justice ABSOLUTELY DEMANDS, He predestine the entire human race to heaven, without it God would be an UNJUST GOD.

Can anyone believe salvation without someone predestined to heaven??? – If yes please explain it.

God bless

 

[Magnanimity]

In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . .

Here’s what happened—the emperorJustinian was not impressed by the particular apokatastasis of Origen. He wrote several anathemas that he wanted the council fathers at Constantinople II to adopt—he wanted the force of an ecumenical council behind his condemnations of the particular teachings of Origen on this issue. However, as Norman Tanner notes in his introduction to Const II in his Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, “Our edition does not include the text of the anathemas against Origen since recent studies have shown that these anathemas cannot be attributed to this council,” (pp. 105-106).

Pointing out the anathemas against Origen and trying to claim that these are united to an ecumenical council is what folks normally do when looking for an authoritative witness in favor of rejecting a belief of the salvation of all. But unless you can provide an actual example, my claim stands. The Church Fathers were profoundly universalist and firmly within a camp that would have God’s love win all, in the end (see Dare We Hope for an abundance of references and quotes).

I’m sure you’d like this issue to have been decided bc St John Paul II said so in his book, but I’m afraid it ain’t so easy. Nice try though!

 

[Gab123]

That’s sweet Gab, it really is. I imagine you with your Bible and your trusty CCC believing that you can’t be led wrong with those two items. I kind of admire the innocent naïveté. But you have no idea who you’re talking to (me) - not what I’ve read or what I know. You also very clearly didn’t realize this was an open debate. You thought it was all settled dogma! Thank God that it isn’t. You owe it to yourself to ponder these issues more deeply. But best wishes to you no matter what. :+1:t3:

Yes, I read my Bible, it’s the Word of God; and the Church was established by God to teach the truth. so I also study the Catechism. If you don’t want to believe Jesus, then that’s your problem. But hell, demons, lost damned souls, are as real as the nose on your face.

It doesn’t sound as if you’re Catholic, so maybe you need to first be convinced that Jesus is God and that He founded a Church.

For Catholics, I would suggest reading the writings of the Church mystics. Start with The Mystical City of God, or simply read the Diary of St Faustina. Also read the works of the Early Church Fathers on the matter, the writings of the popes, Church Councils, etc. but my gosh, simply read the gospels. Of course then there’s the miracle of Fatima, with the vision of hell; St Teresa’s Vision of hell, st Catherine’s vision of hell, etc. etc. now you can even listen to recordings of exorcisms of voices of the damned speaking

If all you’re going to do is be swayed by a book you bought on Amazon, then the problem is that you have to not be so shallow…