Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Vico]

… If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace. …

All those theological formulations are expressions of mysteries not of dogmas. The person has free will in both their damnation and their salvation per the Council of Trent dogmas of faith. That is why the Catholic Encyclopedia states that man is the partial cause of his salvation and the sole cause of his damnation.

 

[TheLittleLady]

There will be a day when we die. It could be sudden. We live our lives in a way that reflects this.

 

[Latin]

I should have said ‘All are called, but we cannot say that all will be saved’, as we cannot know who will be drawn to God at the end of life.

Not personally but in general we know exactly who they are who are drawn to God now and at the end of life.

Everyone of who are predestined to heaven from all eternity and at their baptism/ initial justification received God’s special grace/ special help His Gift of Final Perseverance.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)

According to the official teachings of the Catholic Church, everyone else is on the way to hell and end up in hell.

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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Every former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. freely and lovingly said/ say YES to God’s salvation.

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The question is: Did we learn anything from the Book of Jonah?

In the Book of Jonah, for the attention of the Ninevites Jonah forty days promised distraction and hell for all Ninevites and after the forty days God provided Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites.
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In the same way, when we reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.

One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone. – Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.

Teaching universal salvation is potentially doing a disservice to God as it would also create complacency.

If we thinking naturally yes, but if we thinking spiritually no and Jimmy Akin explains the reason.
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JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward in heaven.”

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If we not set free to freely decide to work without the fear of hell, we cannot do supernatural work/ merit.

We cannot please God with the work we do energized/ caused by the spirit of fear, because we cannot do it freely, out of sheer love for the Glory of God, these works are wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
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Whatever we do energized/ caused by the spirit of fear is rejected by God because there is no love in it and strings attached to it.
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As far as I know universal salvation among the Charismatic Catholics, they do their best out of sheer love for the glory of God and they trust God for their salvation, so their works energized/ caused by the Spirit of God.
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God bless

 

[sudy]

Everyone of who are predestined to heaven from all eternity and at their baptism/ initial justification received God’s special grace/ special help His Gift of Final Perseverance.

Some are the elect, but we cannot know who they are unless it has been divinely revealed.

Without the special help of God […]

According to the official teachings of the Catholic Church, everyone else is on the way to hell and end up in hell.

Without God’s grace we can do nothing. No, the Catholic Church entrusts them to God’s mercy…for example infants who die without baptism, another example is also in the funeral rites.

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

CCC 1996-1998 references 1 Corinthians 2:7-9 ’ “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” ’

Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Every former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. freely and lovingly said/ say YES to God’s salvation.

This doesn’t mean what you’re implying it means. This is some people, and not all people.

One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone. – Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.

Romans 5:18 In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. << meaning that life is offered to all people.

Ephesians 1:10-11 10 as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth. In him we were also chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,

the qualifiers are in verses 1 and 12
‘Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the holy ones who are (in Ephesus) faithful in Christ Jesus:’ and 'so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped in Christ. ’

Col:1:20’s qualifiers are in verses 1 and 23
‘to the holy ones and faithful brothers in Jesus Christ’ and 'provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. ’

 

[sudy]

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward in heaven.”

He acknowledges that those who love God are rewarded in heaven… it says nothing about universal salvation.

As far as I know universal salvation among the Charismatic Catholics, they do their best out of sheer love for the glory of God and they trust God for their salvation, so their works energized/ caused by the Spirit of God.

‘caused by’ in terms of God working through them. This is not universal salvation.

God bless you, too.

 

[Latin]

…

Many of those theological formulations are the heart of Catholic Soteriology and far from mystery, easy to prove it.

Yes man is partial cause of his salvation because God’s gifts of efficacious graces prepares/ causes man to freely, lovingly and infallibly cooperate with God’s efficacious graces.

But to say man has free will in their damnation and man is the sole cause of his damnation is absurdum, it is totally contradict with the heart of Catholic Soteriology and easy to prove it in Catholic Soteriology from many different angles, I’m sure Vico you know this.
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FROM ONE ANGLE:
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

About those whom God wills not to call them to heaven, they are on the way to hell, solely caused by the will of God.
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FROM ANOTHER ANGLE:
From those who are baptized and God wills to withhold from them His special grace/ special help His Gift of Final Perseverance they all infallibly end up in hell solely caused by the will of God.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. ( De fide. )

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SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE TWO ANGLES

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott,

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. ( De fide. )

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. ( De fide. )
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301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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303 God cares for all, from the least things to the great events of the world and its history. The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases. 162
As the book of Proverbs states: Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established.

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As we see above, God’s has absolute sovereignty over the course of every events, he does whatever he pleases, not our wills but His will, will be done.
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The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.”
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

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As we see above, God is the cause of every events.

Do you know Vico, what does it mean God is the cause of every events in the universe?

This is really not a question, because I know, you know the answer.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

… But to say man has free will in their damnation and man is the sole cause of his damnation is absurdum …
… God is the cause of every event …

Man may also be a partial cause and we know that God wills man to be able to choose.

By human will is not by chance.

Council of Trent

Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema.

Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” ( GS 17 § 1).

1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man…

Partial Cause of his happiness in heaven. Codign merit. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

Due to a person for some good he has done. Generally applied to merit before God, who binds himself, as it were, to reward those who do his will. The conditions for condign merit are the state of grace and a morally good action. The beneficiary is the person who performs the good act and not someone else. Condign merit is based on the revealed fact that God has promised such a reward. Thus we condignly merit an increase of the virtue of faith by every act of faith we perform in the state of grace.

(Etym. Latin con -, thoroughly + dignus , worthy: condignus , very worthy.)

 

[Latin]

1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” ( GS 17 § 1).

CATHOLIC SOTERIOLOGY NULLIFIES 1743

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
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301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.

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OUR UNAIDED FREE WILL ONLY GOOD FOR LYING AND SIN

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

I wonder, how 1743 get into the catechism???

By human will is not by chance.

“For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.

But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.”
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)

St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
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As we see above:
Human will is absolutely not by chance.

God directs every event according to His divine design/ plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Yes man is partial cause of his salvation and his reward in heaven (not heaven because heaven is God’s free gift) because God’s gifts of efficacious graces prepares/ causes man to freely, lovingly and infallibly cooperate with God’s efficacious graces.

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

Latin:

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward in heaven.”

He acknowledges that those who love God are rewarded in heaven… it says nothing about universal salvation.

I wouldn’t want to prove universal salvation, I only want to prove the way we can do supernatural works.

Many Christians who doesn’t know they are saved, working very hard (energized by the spirit of fear) for the reason to be qualified to enter heaven and to show, this is not supernatural work, no rewards for it in heaven, only wood, hay and straw.

If we not set free to freely decide to work without the fear of hell, we cannot do supernatural work/ merit.

In this regard it is beneficial if we know we have been saved because in this case we can work out of sheer love for the Glory of God, not for our salvation and without any strings attached.

The Evangelical Protestants know they are saved, as far as I know the Charismatic Catholics believe too they are saved.

So, for them easier to do supernatural works because they don’t have to work for their salvation, so no strings attached.

Maybe the Charismatic Catholics will be the aristocrats in heaven. Just kidding.
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One another issue, CCC and CCCS is not the same, my excerpt in my Post No. 684; came from CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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God bless

 

[sudy]

I wouldn’t want to prove universal salvation, I only want to prove the way we can do supernatural works.

Many Christians who doesn’t know they are saved, working very hard (energized by the spirit of fear) for the reason to be qualified to enter heaven and to show, this is not supernatural work, no rewards for it in heaven, only wood, hay and straw.

If we not set free to freely decide to work without the fear of hell, we cannot do supernatural work/ merit.

I guess that depends on what we mean by fear. Fear (Awe) of the Lord is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and fortitude helps us drives out the other kind. I’m not arguing for rewards for works done out of fear of punishment.

'There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. ’ ~1 John 4:18

I do believe they can have hope in their salvation, though… their fear of God shows a beginning of faith and a raising of their mind to Him, and their works show that God is working through them.

'The nations raged, but your wrath has come, and the time for the dead to be judged, and to recompense your servants, the prophets, and the holy ones and those who fear your name, the small and the great alike, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." ’ ~Revelations 11:18

In this regard it is beneficial if we know we have been saved because in this case we can work out of sheer love for the Glory of God, not for our salvation and without any strings attached.

Hope doesn’t destroy this confidence we have in our salvation. Hope is our desire for heaven and our trust in Our Lord’s promises.

The Evangelical Protestants know they are saved, as far as I know the Charismatic Catholics believe too they are saved.

So, for them easier to do supernatural works because they don’t have to work for their salvation, so no strings attached.

I don’t see why you believe it is easier as we see many complacent Christians, unfortunately. We can do works of love for God and neighbour with hope for our salvation, without knowledge in a guarantee. We work from love.

Maybe the Charismatic Catholics will be the aristocrats in heaven. Just kidding.
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One another issue, CCC and CCCS is not the same, my excerpt in my Post No. 684; came from CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

I have no idea what CCCS is, then, but it looks like it’s based on the catechism at the Vatican website, and therefore shouldn’t differ in meaning.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

47 Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9.

God bless you, too.

 

[Vico]

CATHOLIC SOTERIOLOGY NULLIFIES 1743 …

…

Note also from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)

As you quoted there is a “free act of will” in those that receive supernatural intervention.

No the Catechism is correct and not in conflict with the dogmas of the Catholic Church. Note in the source “only by the aid of God’s grace can he bring such a relationship with God into full flower”.

Catechism 1743 source is given as Gaudium et spes 17 § 1:

1. Only in freedom can man direct himself toward goodness. Our contemporaries make much of this freedom and pursue it eagerly; and rightly to be sure. Often however they foster it perversely as a license for doing whatever pleases them, even if it is evil. For its part, authentic freedom is an exceptional sign of the divine image within man. For God has willed that man remain “under the control of his own decisions,”(12) so that he can seek his Creator spontaneously, and come freely to utter and blissful perfection through loyalty to Him. Hence man’s dignity demands that he act according to a knowing and free choice that is personally motivated and prompted from within, not under blind internal impulse nor by mere external pressure. Man achieves such dignity when, emancipating himself from all captivity to passion, he pursues his goal in a spontaneous choice of what is good, and procures for himself through effective and skilful action, apt helps to that end. Since man’s freedom has been damaged by sin, only by the aid of God’s grace can he bring such a relationship with God into full flower. Before the judgement seat of God each man must render an account of his own life, whether he has done good or evil.(13)

12 Cf. Sir . 15:14
13 Cf. 2 Cor . 5:10.

Sir 15:14:

God in the beginning created human beings
and made them subject to their own free choice.

2 Cor 5:10:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

Catechism

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author: …

 

[goout]

I cannot see

These are wise words, and can be the start of humility when all we seem to have is skepticism and objections.

 

[Latin]

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author.

I don’t think anyone would disagree with the above statement.

308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. – Ez.36:27; etc.; I cause you …

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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil

But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite power God could always create something better.
But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection.
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314 God is master of the world and of its history. through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest 185 for which he created heaven and earth.
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302 The universe was created in a state of journeying (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.
God protects and governs all things which he has made.

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza

Page 113; “However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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"God directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause." (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

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284 … And if the world does come from God’s wisdom and goodness, why is there evil? Where does it come from? Who is responsible for it? Is there any liberation from it?
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WHY IS THERE EVIL?

ANSWER

314; God decided that through the dramas of evil and sin, 302; takes the human race through in a state of journeying (in statu viae), 310; towards its ultimate perfection.
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WHERE DOES SIN COME FROM?

Please see the answer on why is there evil.
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WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT?

Please see the answer on why is there evil.
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IS THERE ANY LIBERATION FROM IT?

ANSWER

“For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.”
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

God is the primary cause of all that exist. God wills that man have free will. Man is the cause of sin through free will. A person is the cause of their own condemnation through their own free will and is therefore responsible (culpable) for it.

Catechism

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

Council of Trent, dogma of faith. (Denzinger 815)

Can. 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.

 

[sudy]

Allowing sin to occur is not the same as encouraging it, rather sin is an offense against his goodness. The wages of sin is death.
If God were to prevent our sins it would ultimately work against his plan to give us free will. Our purpose is to freely love and serve him, and we sinners have the opportunity to respond to this vocation until death and judgement.

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. 176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

In whichever way you like you can fit it all together, as long as you include the above.

The existence and permission of evil are actually a mystery to us [ccc 324, 289, 309], so trying to understand it fully is, to an extent, fruitless… although perhaps it does add a further motive for us to forgive and pray for those who sin against us.

God would be better served by us doing what he asks of us instead of wasting efforts searching for an answer that doesn’t have a clear one, that is a distraction from our real purpose, and is, ultimately, ‘above our pay grade’ in any case… The catechism shows that the Church has been contemplating this question and it’s unlikely that we could come up with a better solution in any case. We can only know what is revealed [1 John 1:5-10] and if we love God as we claim to, it’s our primary job to get on with doing what he asks of us as this seeking for the answer appears to be with the view of looking for a way to sidestep any personal blame.

 

[Latin]

I have no idea what CCCS is, then, but it looks like it’s based on the catechism at the Vatican website, and therefore shouldn’t differ in meaning.

Yes, it is based on the catechism, made it simple and written in the way to easier to understand.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

https://www.catholicity.com/catechism/

God bless

 

[Latin]

God is the primary cause of all that exist. God wills that man have free will. Man is the cause of sin through free will. A person is the cause of their own condemnation through their own free will and is therefore responsible (culpable) for it.

Vico, please read my answer to your above statement in my above post No. 694.

This is my last post in this topic.

Thank you for your posts addressed to me, my soteriological knowledge greatly increased from your posts as you always go to the heart of the matter.

So, your posts encouraged me that I go to the heart of the matter as well.

God bless