God created evil

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bahman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
oldcelt said:
There has been quite of bit of redefinition going on to place all the blame on humanity and absolve the creator of any responsibility for his creation.

For me, I’m doing the analyzing now. 56 years of hearing the standard tale should be enough for a person to see the cracks if they are looking.
Click to expand...
There is an immense and highly significant gulf between direct and ultimate responsibility. Would you prefer this planet to have remained devoid of life? If not why not?
 
tonyrey said:
There is an immense and highly significant gulf between direct and ultimate responsibility. Would you prefer this planet to have remained devoid of life? If not why not?
Click to expand...
Why not? I mean, we apparently are so wicked that god has to go so far as send an anti-Christ to be sure that he rounds up and condemns all the baddies. Leave it to the deer ot nothing at all.

So far as direct and ultimate responsibility, God should not have any, but clearly does inder Christianity.

It is remarkably simple. According to Christianity, God, an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent (people often forget that one) who, with foreknowledge and forethought did create
the angel Satan, an evil and wicked servant who God then released on the human race…God created evil for his own purposes.
 
Bahman said:
This is the part I have slight problem with it. Knowing the action of an agent requires full micro-design which turns free will is an illusion. In another word **we have to restrict/redefine the definition of omniscience and design in order to leave some room for agent. **
Click to expand...
I put in bold, from post 198 --** – ****we have to restrict/redefine the definition of omniscience and design in order to leave some room for agent. **

As a Catholic, I do not have the power to restrict/redefine the definition of omniscience when it applies to God. Obviously, humans are not omniscient

At first, I thought your point about a clear definition of creation was important. But once God is altered to fit human restrictions on omniscience and subsequently omnipotence, then the definition of creation is useless when it applies to God.

Since God is the Greatest Good, according to Catholic teachings, then it is unreasonable and false to say that God created evil.
 
oldcelt said:
Why not? I mean, we apparently are so wicked that god has to go so far as send an anti-Christ to be sure that he rounds up and condemns all the baddies. Leave it to the deer ot nothing at all.

So far as direct and ultimate responsibility, God should not have any, but clearly does inder Christianity.

It is remarkably simple. According to Christianity, God, an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent (people often forget that one) who, with foreknowledge and forethought did create the angel Satan, an evil and wicked servant who God then released on the human race…God created evil for his own purposes.
Click to expand...
I apologize
that I do not know about the Christianity teachings regarding Satan which you are referring to in post 201. They are not Catholic teachings. (CCC, 391-395)

Thus, I cannot directly address your assertion that, according to these Christianity teachings, “God, an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent (people often forget that one) who, with foreknowledge and forethought did create the angel Satan, an evil and wicked servant who God then released on the human race…God created evil for his own purposes.” (post 201)

Goodness Gracious!

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
 
May all of you have a Merry Christmas
as we celebrate the joy of Christ’s birth.



Lorenzo Lotto, 1523
 
Bahman said:
  1. God has omniscience
  2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
  3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
  4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
  5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
  6. God created evil
Click to expand...
This is not a dilemma in Judaism. Indeed, if G-d had NOT created evil as well as good, or the tendency toward evil that mankind possesses when its self-fulfilling goals are abused, as well as mankind’s potential directed toward accomplishing the good, then Judaism would have a problem with that. According to Jewish teaching, G-d intentionally created the universe incomplete, with holes, so that mankind might endeavor to repair the universe by means of exercising its free will, while controlling its selfish impulses, in a positive direction. In short, Judaism takes it very seriously that G-d created EVERYTHING; however, He also gave us the power to correct the evil in the world.
 
meltzerboy said:
This is not a dilemma in Judaism. Indeed, if G-d had NOT created evil as well as good, or the tendency toward evil that mankind possesses when its self-fulfilling goals are abused, as well as mankind’s potential directed toward accomplishing the good, then Judaism would have a problem with that. According to Jewish teaching, G-d intentionally created the universe incomplete, with holes, so that mankind might endeavor to repair the universe by means of exercising its free will, while controlling its selfish impulses, in a positive direction. In short, Judaism takes it very seriously that G-d created EVERYTHING; however, He also gave us the power to correct the evil in the world.
Click to expand...
I’ll have to look into that; I’d be quite surprised to learn that Judaism teaches that God created evil. Using evil and creating evil are two different things.
 
Bahman said:
This is the part I have slight problem with it. Knowing the action of an agent requires full micro-design which turns free will is an illusion.
Click to expand...
But say if you were suddenly given the gift of foreknowledge; you stepped out of time, so that you could see the beginning from the end, past and future, even while time still continued to flow for everyone else. Would that knowledge, by itself, alter the outcome of people’s choices or actions?
 
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7

Case closed?
 
oldcelt said:
You’re right…I suppose I’ll put my absolute faith in all the rest though. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Nope. But can put your faith in God as revealed by the Church, which correctly understands and interprets Scripture along with her lived, historical, Tradition.
 
fhansen said:
Nope. But can put your faith in God as revealed by the Church, which correctly understands and interprets Scripture along with her lived, historical, Tradition.
Click to expand...
Right, because men never make mistakes, or interprets things to their liking. Oh wait…wasn’t scripture sent through men inspired by the Holy Spirit? Seems to me I was taught that in Cathecism.
It’s not like the verse is ambiguous. It flat out says it…unless they decide to re-translate…as they have
 
I suspect this issue is not so much about whether God created evil or allowed evil (I believe he did not will or create evil but rather allowed it) as much as it’s about, whether God is a loving God, or whether people can blame God for our sufferings or evil commited.

Before I start, I would just like to ask that people please quickly read my two previous posts here - #7 & #81

I would like to begin by quoting a small passage from a book called “From Sinai to Calvary” as I believe it will help many greatly in their sufferings.

“The Son of God suffered unto death, not that men might not suffer, but that their sufferings might be like His.”
Extract from the book "From Sinai to Calvary":
Jesus said: **“Contemplate this scene, My beloved, and learn that My own cannot march through life without a cross. 4) “Go and tell the world what you are learning and, if they want to silence you, shout even louder. Do this for the sake of the power of the love that unites you to Me, which is as united as these two pieces of wood that form an instrument of salvation for all of humanity.
  1. “Tell the consecrated souls that the cross that they wear, is not only to adorn their chests or identify them superficially with Me. First they must gird themselves with the cross and learn to “make themselves comfortable” on it instead of running away from it. Tell them they cannot long for Tabor, if they have not first passed through Golgotha. It is here on the Cross where they will learn charity, humility, poverty of spirit and temperance in all acts of their lives. 6) “Assure them that I give proof and testimony that, the devil can be easily defeated from the experience of the cross. Contemplate Me: I am a true Man, in whom the flesh manifests its limitations, and true God, in demonstrating the relentless force of Agape Love.
  2. “Pray for those who do not know of sufferings, for it is certain that they are not among My own…Observe these two condemned ones who flank Me and meditate on the ways that men carry their crosses. 8) “Some carry it with rage, with bitterness, amidst much grief. He who carries a cross in similar circumstances and with those sentiments, carries for sure a cross, which has no sense because instead of drawing him closer, it pushes him away from Me. Usually that is the cross of those who refuse to understand the meaning of suffering, which takes on supernatural dimensions. That is the cross of the thief at My left, it is the cross which will always be heavy and will never be able to redeem.
  3. “Dismas, on My right, accepts his cross with resignation and even with dignity; he assumes it at first because he has no other recourse. But suddenly, when he recognizes Me and knows that I Am the Son of God, he accepts that cross, acknowledging himself as a sinner, and asking that through it, Mercy remembers him. 10) “Finally, you have Me here in front of you, embracing My redeeming Cross to teach all of you to carry yours. I invite you to be co-redeemers with Me, making reparation for your own sins and those of all mankind. Know that this way of carrying the cross is reflected in your conduct, when before you are difficulties and pains and through them you draw closer to Me and you profit from them to give testimony before men. When you embrace your cross, you can feel that the only thing you desire is strength, because the thirst for souls consumes you.”**
Click to expand...
For more information on this extract and book “From Sinai to Calvary” please read this.

So I would ask that anyone struggling with this, please read this short booklet “From Sinai to Calvary”

I came accross these from my Dad, when he watched a documentry on TV in 1999 called “Signs from God” in which the famous Australian journalist ‘Mike Willesee’ set out to prove that miracles can’t happen and don’t happen, in which he managed to film Katya Riva’s stigmata and many other miracles that took place, all of which was presented in the documentry that changed his life forever and many others, called “Signs from God” (Mike Willesee is now a devout Roman Catholic) you can watch the most part of that documentry here free online along with much more information on it and all of Katya’s books free to read and download online in pdf.

youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf
The documentary, 'A PLEA TO HUMANITY", presents some of the most remarkable happenings in modern times which will have important implications for both science and religion.
Click to expand...
In Cochabamba, Bolivia, a statue of the Crucified Christ, inexplicably has wept tears and blood.
Click to expand...
In the same city, Katya Rivas has had appear in her hands, in her feet, and on her forehead, wounds similar to those believed to have been suffered by Christ in His Crucifixion, the stigmata.
Click to expand...
Also, Katya, who had never read the bible, and who did not complete her high school education, has written, without theological error, hundreds of pages of profound theological teachings and biblical commentaries which she says are dictated to her by Christ.
The story of these happenings was presented in a Fox Network prime time special called “Signs from God” which was broadcast throughout the United States in July 1999 and subsequently in a number of other countries.
Click to expand...
Please continue to next post -
 
Continued from above post -

Here is a list with the links to Katya’s short books free to read and download online (my favourite being “The Holy Mass” “In Adoration” and “From Sinai to Calvary” but they are all truly remarkable and invaluable!)

Books on the Eucharist
The Holy Mass - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf
Holy Hour - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HH-Reg.pdf
In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf

Books on Spiritual Testimonies & Devotions
Divine Providence - loveandmercy.org/Eng-DP-Reg.pdf
My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters - loveandmercy.org/Eng-MBC-Reg.pdf
Praying the Rosary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-PR-Reg.pdf
The Visible Face of the Invisible God - loveandmercy.org/Eng-VF-Reg.pdf

Books on the Passion
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

You can find all of this including the most part of the documentry “Signs from God” free to watch, read and download online here - youshallbelieve.com/

Now I may not know the meaning of suffering, but I do know that it’s not because God doesn’t love us. “16 God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son” - John 3:16 and in turn the Son loved the world so much that he gave his own life for us (the love of Agape confirmed through works by the Father and the Son).

Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc all focus on this in their books on atheism, they begin their books with a catastrophe or some evil act and than they say “If God is Omnipotent, than he chose to let this happen, is this a God you should believe in?” I notice how it’s not so much an intellectual argument against God, but rather an emotional one playing on our lack of understanding.

I find it amazing at just how similar their arguments are with the ones from Christ’s time.

I believe it’s the very same thing that was said to Christ as they made fun of him on the Cross and it’s the number one call I believe of many atheists today, at the heart of alot of atheists is usually a fist raised toward God from this lack of understanding between God’s omnipotance and the reality of suffering, the reality of evil.

Those very same taunts.

“If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”
“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”
“He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

I believe this Gospel passage is a perfect one to reflect on with the subject of God’s omnipotence and suffering.
Gospel of Luke:
Luke 23:34-43

Jesus Is Nailed to a Cross

34-35 Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people! They don’t know what they’re doing.”

While the crowd stood there watching Jesus, the soldiers gambled for his clothes. The leaders insulted him by saying, “He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

36 The soldiers made fun of Jesus and brought him some wine. 37 They said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”

38 Above him was a sign that said, “This is the King of the Jews.”

39 One of the criminals hanging there also insulted Jesus by saying, “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”

40 But the other criminal told the first one off, “Don’t you fear God? Aren’t you getting the same punishment as this man? 41 We got what was coming to us, but he didn’t do anything wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into power!”

43 Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”
Click to expand...
I strongly encourage everyone reading this to reflect on the extract I provided above from the book “From Sinai to Calvary” in which shows the two ways that men carry their crosses. Our crosses are inevitable, we will all have to carry them at some stage in our life, (e.g. Death) some heavier than others, but I certainly know which cross I will prefer to carry, and that is Dismas’ cross, humbly recognising himself as a sinner and asking that though his sufferings, mercy remembers him. It’s in this way of carrying teh cross that warrented such a reply from our lord “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.” - Luke 23:43

“Humility opens the doors to the kingdom of heaven.”
Extract from "Divine Providence":
On the 29th day the Lord told me: “Gold is tested in the burning crucible. Everything that all of you are living is necessary for growth… I love you very much. Believe it and love Me more. Even if you think that you are incapable of loving more, continue to exert yourself in that for love is like a rubber container that expands, with the only difference being that the container never explodes, it is refined until it becomes noble material.”
Click to expand...
Men and womens sufferings all to often turn into desperation and even suicide, because in such cases, it’s a cross alone and we can only bear a cross with Christ on it’s arms.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
oldcelt said:
Right, because men never make mistakes, or interprets things to their liking. Oh wait…wasn’t scripture sent through men inspired by the Holy Spirit? Seems to me I was taught that in Cathecism.
It’s not like the verse is ambiguous. It flat out says it…unless they decide to re-translate…as they have
Click to expand...
They just have to understand it as the author intended. And based on the revelation Jesus gave to the world, the nature and will of God is better understood now than ever. And if you really want to know about the Church’s position on scriptural interpretation I’d begin reading here:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#101
 
oldcelt said:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7

Case closed?
Click to expand...
Case reopened by the Sovereign Justice of God via the second part of Isaiah 45: 7 which is the link to the immediately following part on God’s Justice in Isaiah 45.

“I make well-being and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.” from Isaiah 45: 7.

How? By allowing natural, material, “evils” take place in a natural physical environment which includes decomposing human anatomies and human desires for apparent good which is not so good. Why? Check out the immediately following information which was not included in post 208, Scripture presented by oldcelt.

Isaiah 45: 8.
“Let justice descend, O heavens, like dew from above, like gentle rain let the skies drop it down.
Let the earth open and salvation bud forth; let justice also spring up!”

It is o.k. to read all of Isaiah, chapter 45.
 
grannymh said:
Case reopened by the Sovereign Justice of God via the second part of Isaiah 45: 7 which is the link to the immediately following part on God’s Justice in Isaiah 45.

“I make well-being and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.” from Isaiah 45: 7.

How? By allowing natural, material, “evils” take place in a natural physical environment which includes decomposing human anatomies and human desires for apparent good which is not so good. Why? Check out the immediately following information which was not included in post 208, Scripture presented by oldcelt.

Isaiah 45: 8.
“Let justice descend, O heavens, like dew from above, like gentle rain let the skies drop it down.
Let the earth open and salvation bud forth; let justice also spring up!”

It is o.k. to read all of Isaiah, chapter 45.
Click to expand...
Another valiant effort…but it says it. It doesn’t beat around the bush. Add to that the admission that God created Satan and I think you have a pretty convincing case. I realize that my lack of trust may seem fatalist, but I have simply seen too much during my time on earth to accept that someone/something good created it.
Created itself, okay…started by some type of god force, okay, but created piece by piece by an all-loving, all-caring, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present God who is still creating…it simply can’t be.
 
meltzerboy said:
This is not a dilemma in Judaism. Indeed, if G-d had NOT created evil as well as good, or the tendency toward evil that mankind possesses when its self-fulfilling goals are abused, as well as mankind’s potential directed toward accomplishing the good, then Judaism would have a problem with that. According to Jewish teaching, G-d intentionally created the universe incomplete, with holes, so that mankind might endeavor to repair the universe by means of exercising its free will, while controlling its selfish impulses, in a positive direction. In short, Judaism takes it very seriously that G-d created EVERYTHING; however, He also gave us the power to correct the evil in the world.
Click to expand...
This is interesting. You are exactly saying what I mentioned in post #198 namely Gods omniscience is the ability to know how to perform the creation which could act on its own, namely creatures own free will, rather than knowing everything about creation including our decisions. However, God should grant the possibility of good and evil in creation in order to exercise free will. In another word we understand the concepts of good or evil hence God provided the basic elements needed in act creation, similar to free will, such that the acts good and evil are possible.
 
May I gently point out that Catholic teaching is clear that God did not create Satan per se. God did create the original angels with the inherent ability to follow their own desires instead of following God. This freedom, which is often overlooked by people who are mad at God, is a necessary element because of the obvious difference between the Creator and the creature, either angel or human.

Somehow, somewhere, in the rush to damage God’s reputation, some people, who have my sincere sympathy, have ignored the simple fact that a created angel could, of his own accord, commit evil in the broad, basic, fundamental sense of turning away from the greater goodness of God.

When there is a free moment, may I gently suggest that readers actually check the universal* Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition*…with an open mind…and some simple common sense.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

One important hint about the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on planet earth.

The Catholic Church, with the guidance of the actual Creator, seeks out this Creator’s Divine Revelation and does not mix up this Divine Revelation with human’s personal anthropomorphic concepts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top