God created evil

[Bahman]

So 6 is wrong?

Sorry that was a mistake on my side. You were correct on your analysis namely if 6 is right then 2 is wrong which means God cannot create a being with free will at the same time be cognitively open to it.

 

[Bahman]

Why would do you impose micro design into it? God could create the world, let it do as it may, but simply know what it would do in any case.

Being cognitively open means that God not only knows what creation may do but also knows what was the very details source of our actions which is equivalent to micro-design unless you impose a restriction on definition of omniscience meaning that God only knows what creation may do. There are a few question left here: 1) What is the advantage of having such a knowledge, namely knowing our actions, 2) how such a knowledge can be achieved? 3) how God could be sure that creation will be free without doing micro-design?

 

[newenglandsun]

Evil is just sin; and sin is just “missing the mark”; and the mark is the proper purpose for things.
He created the things; the proper purpose for those things; and the freedom to search for him.

So hurricanes that wipe out your children aren’t evil?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

So hurricanes that wipe out your children aren’t evil?

No they are not evil. Your children are now safe in heaven. Hurricanes are part of nature, for us. It may be in the past, before the fall of man, that there were few if any hurricanes or that Adam and Eve had gifts which gave them knowledge of nature and how to avoid natural disasters.
I often wondered why so many people would die in typhoons in poor countries until I realized they were all living at sea-level beside giant rivers. Any slight rise in the water level would kill thousands. My solution was not to build your house beside the water, go to higher ground. But high ground is probably more expensive to build on and then you have to spend the rest of your life walking up and down a hill.

 

[newenglandsun]

No they are not evil. Your children are now safe in heaven. Hurricanes are part of nature, for us. It may be in the past, before the fall of man, that there were few if any hurricanes or that Adam and Eve had gifts which gave them knowledge of nature and how to avoid natural disasters.
I often wondered why so many people would die in typhoons in poor countries until I realized they were all living at sea-level beside giant rivers. Any slight rise in the water level would kill thousands. My solution was not to build your house beside the water, go to higher ground. But high ground is probably more expensive to build on and then you have to spend the rest of your life walking up and down a hill.

Yes, but now they have no opportunity to grow and live a meaningful life. And how can we be certain they are in Heaven? Would you kill your own kids just so they could now “be safe in Heaven”? Murder is a sin, no?

When you make statements about the past hurricanes prior to the Fall of Adam and Eve, you are moving into a field called Natural History. There was possibly a meteor that wiped the dinosaurs out 65 million years ago. Gap theory creationists would point to the Fall of Satan as causing the Earth to become unformed.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but now they have no opportunity to grow and live a meaningful life. And how can we be certain they are in Heaven? Would you kill your own kids just so they could now “be safe in Heaven”? Murder is a sin, no?

When you make statements about the past hurricanes prior to the Fall of Adam and Eve, you are moving into a field called Natural History. There was possibly a meteor that wiped the dinosaurs out 65 million years ago. Gap theory creationists would point to the Fall of Satan as causing the Earth to become unformed.

Suffering caused by natural occurrences are known as “physical evil”. Those caused by sin are known as “moral evil”. The main difference-and what makes moral evil so much more, well, evil, is when sin, especially the most grave or serious kind, is committed by a rational, free moral agent *with full knowledge and deliberate consent, *someone who could’ve done otherwise IOW, and refrained from the sin. Physical evil is beyond human control-we naturally perceive it as bad but not to the same degree as moral evil, when both are directly experienced-because moral evil always transcends or opposes reason and justice.

 

[newenglandsun]

Suffering caused by natural occurrences are known as “physical evil”. Those caused by sin are known as “moral evil”. The main difference-and what makes moral evil so much more, well, evil, is when sin, especially the most grave or serious kind, is committed by a rational, free moral agent *with full knowledge and deliberate consent, *someone who could’ve done otherwise IOW, and refrained from the sin. Physical evil is beyond human control-we naturally perceive it as bad but not to the same degree as moral evil, when both are directly experienced-because moral evil always transcends or opposes reason and justice.

So then who causes physical evil? Angra-Mainyu?

 

[fhansen]

So then who causes physical evil? Angra-Mainyu?

Yes, physical evil can also be known as “acts of God”. And yet, we intuit that these occurrences are “natural”, and could not be otherwise in this world, as we know it. We only know that human acts of moral evil could be otherwise.

 

[newenglandsun]

Yes, physical evil can also be known as “acts of God”.

Would you be the architect of such a universe?

 

[Amandil]

How do I know? I don’t…

Which makes your whole argument a self-contradiction.

and neither do you.

Quite the contrary. I have no problem reconciling God’s omniscience or omnipotence with fee will. Its not a problem when you realize that God is the one allowing the thwarting of His omnipotence and omniscience for the sake of the love and freedom of His creatures.

But this thwarting requires omnipotence, and therefore is not an argument against it.

Why is it absurd to say that the Christian God has been an accessory before the fact on countless murders? A human certainly would be, and for you to say that my argument is fallacious is what is absurd. This is a philosophy forum in case you hadn’t noticed. On any forum that required verifiable fact, every argument that has been presented, including yours and mine, would be tossed.

Because it is a claim that is completely unsound. You can say it, but that doesn’t make it valid, much less true.

When looking at the question of God, one is forced to take a position if you are going to discuss. My is a hands-off and remote God. You tried to demonstrate your knowledge by throwing in a term that does not apply to a human-deity interaction and then tried to call my response circular. Please.

My premise is fallacious? But yours is dead on accurate I’ll bet. By the way, which premise? I have presented a number of them on a variety of issues related to the subject…

Truly, if you can’t accept the fact that everyone in a thread like this will be arguing from the theoretical, then maybe you would feel more comfortable in a thread on theology or the Catechism. There, everything is written down and i is provable whether something.is the belief of a particular sect.

So, in other words, you could care less about getting to the truth, but rather just indulge your own prejudicial speculations though some form of pseudo-philosophical methodology.

Gotcha. I apologize, I made the mistake that you might actually want to get to the truth.

I’ll bow out now.

 

[fhansen]

Would you be the architect of such a universe?

I can argue with God about it now and then. But I only know for sure that the cause of the Holocaust offends me much more than that of tsunamis. Evil acts of humans.are directly offensive. The cause of natural tragedies offend us only in abstract. The latter has to do with the “way things are”-non-negotiably, unavoidably, for us, while the former is definitely avoidable.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Yes, but now they have no opportunity to grow and live a meaningful life. And how can we be certain they are in Heaven? Would you kill your own kids just so they could now “be safe in Heaven”? Murder is a sin, no?

When you make statements about the past hurricanes prior to the Fall of Adam and Eve, you are moving into a field called Natural History. There was possibly a meteor that wiped the dinosaurs out 65 million years ago. Gap theory creationists would point to the Fall of Satan as causing the Earth to become unformed.

From an holistic perspective of life, first of all we all must die, but how we die is the important question. Do we die in His friendship or not. Children always die in His friendship. If they grew to adulthood and offended Him they would be lost forever. So dying as they do is not something terrible, dying outside His friendship is the most terrible thing that could happen to them. And killing them would only sever myself from them and Him forever. He decides ultimately when each of us dies.

The dinosaurs were not killed by a meteor 65 million years ago. This has been proven by science. The meteor, popularly portrayed as killing the dinosaurs which hit the Yucatan peninsula 65 million years ago, struck 300,000 years after the dinosaurs died.

 

[Amandil]

I can argue with God about it now and then. But I only know for sure that the cause of the Holocaust offends me much more than that of tsunamis. Evil acts of humans.are directly offensive. The cause of natural tragedies offend us only in abstract. The latter has to do with the “way things are”-non-negotiably, unavoidably, for us, while the former is definitely avoidable.

What many people seem to see temporally only see it in a negative light, while God sees from the eternal perspective.

Have you ever read Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters”?

 

[newenglandsun]

From an holistic perspective of life, first of all we all must die, but how we die is the important question. Do we die in His friendship or not. Children always die in His friendship. If they grew to adulthood and offended Him they would be lost forever. So dying as they do is not something terrible, dying outside His friendship is the most terrible thing that could happen to them. And killing them would only sever myself from them and Him forever. He decides ultimately when each of us dies.

The dinosaurs were not killed by a meteor 65 million years ago. This has been proven by science. The meteor, popularly portrayed as killing the dinosaurs which hit the Yucatan peninsula 65 million years ago, struck 300,000 years after the dinosaurs died.

But if they die via natural disaster then isn’t God the murderer? And who would want to be in a relationship with that kind of god?
youtube.com/watch?v=EJwhqhqBtbo
“Funny how God gets credit for all the good stuff.” -Dr. House

Wrong about the dinosaurs.
livescience.com/26933-chicxulub-cosmic-impact-dinosaurs.html
Whether all of them were killed is debatable. Most would probably say no.

 

[newenglandsun]

What many people seem to see temporally only see it in a negative light, while God sees from the eternal perspective.

Have you ever read Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters”?

The Screwtape Letters was a great book on the stance of Christian devotion and worship. It never addresses our problems though.

 

[newenglandsun]

I can argue with God about it now and then. But I only know for sure that the cause of the Holocaust offends me much more than that of tsunamis. Evil acts of humans.are directly offensive. The cause of natural tragedies offend us only in abstract. The latter has to do with the “way things are”-non-negotiably, unavoidably, for us, while the former is definitely avoidable.

Tsunamis, earthquakes, and tornadoes, including cancer, heart attacks, and liver failures, and shark attacks and car accidents greatly offend me as well. Don’t they offend God?

 

[Amandil]

The Screwtape Letters was a great book on the stance of Christian devotion and worship. It never addresses our problems though.

Are you sure about that?

Screwtape in several different letters, explains how wars or natural disasters don’t really benefit them and actually the effects of war and natural disasters on humans are often contrary to what the devils desire.

 

[tonyrey]

As a great saint once said something to the effect: God is in control and never changes. Everything is passing away, do not worry…Know who ?

There is no cause for worry but there is cause for action because men are also in control. Jesus didn’t advocate inaction…

 

[Paddy_Walker]

But if they die via natural disaster then isn’t God the murderer? And who would want to be in a relationship with that kind of god?
youtube.com/watch?v=EJwhqhqBtbo
“Funny how God gets credit for all the good stuff.” -Dr. House

Wrong about the dinosaurs.
livescience.com/26933-chicxulub-cosmic-impact-dinosaurs.html
Whether all of them were killed is debatable. Most would probably say no.

Yes God is the killer of all of us, you and me included, what makes you think you should live forever. Is it Him who makes you think you should live forever and you who think you should not live forever or maybe not?

The dinosaurs, according to that article, the dinosaurs died out either 180,000 years before the meteor impact or 33,000 years before the meteor impact.

 

[newenglandsun]

Yes God is the killer of all of us, you and me included, what makes you think you should live forever. Is it Him who makes you think you should live forever and you who think you should not live forever or maybe not?

In this world? I don’t think I want to live forever.