God created evil

[Amandil]

We have a nice garden. I go out and buy a couple of dogs. The dogs are happy in the garden and well behaved. I leave a bone in the garden but I tell them not to touch it. I go out and when I come back with my mate, one of the dogs has taken the bone and is digging a big hole in the petunias.

I’m not happy and tell them they can no longer stay in the garden. But my wife goes ballistic. ‘Look at it, you idiot. It’s ruined. Look what you did!’

‘Hey’, says my mate. ‘It’s not Bradski’s fault. He didn’t dig the hole’.

‘What? But what did he expect the dog to do? He knew perfectly well that one of them would take the bone and dig a hole for it!’

‘Well, yeah…but I still say it’s not his fault. You can’t blame him. And in any case, it’s not a hole – it’s just an absence of dirt.’

1. Humans are not dogs.
2. Human existence under original justice precludes ignorance to sin. Man in the state of original justice had full access to his/her faculties where his/her will and emotions were subject to his/her reason.

So your desperate attempt at an analogy doesn’t follow.

 

[Bradski]

1. Humans are not dogs.
2. Human existence under original justice precludes ignorance to sin. Man in the state of original justice had full access to his/her faculties where his/her will and emotions were subject to his/her reason.

But honestly, c’mon…

The dogs knew they were doing wrong. They even hid behind the shed when they heard me coming. So if I knew that the dogs would dig a hole, then was my wife right in blaming me?

 

[PRmerger]

Agreed…He knew, Knows, and always will Know…Guilty.

Only if He caused the evil.

He did not.

 

[Amandil]

But honestly, c’mon…

The dogs knew they were doing wrong. They even hid behind the shed when they heard me coming. So if I knew that the dogs would dig a hole, then was my wife right in blaming me?

The dogs “knew” they were doing wrong how? Are you telling me that the dog had the rational thought process where it knew that by taking the bone and digging the hole that it was doing something explicitly immoral? That dogs can recognize a threat because of harsh tones which causes them to run and hide does not imply a moral compass nor moral culpability which requires a rational will.

Secondly, the gravity of the matter. Certain dogs are bred to dig as part of their makeup(such as hunting where dogs dig in order to flush out prey). Digging is thus not contrary to their nature.

The original sin, emancipation from God, and particular sins, are in fact contrary to our nature as human beings.

So your analogy, again, amounts to a confusion between positive and natural law. Telling a dog not to dig a hole or else is positive law-arbitrary and based upon your desires.

Natural law is of a higher order.

 

[Bradski]

The dogs “knew” they were doing wrong how? Are you telling me that the dog had the rational thought process where it knew that by taking the bone and digging the hole that it was doing something explicitly immoral?

Not immoral. Just wrong. Get your daughters a dog and you’ll understand that they definitely know when they are doing something that you don’t want them to. ‘Dig a hole in the garden/eat that apple and so help me, I’ll kill you!’

That dogs can recognize a threat because of harsh tones which causes them to run and hide does not imply a moral compass nor moral culpability which requires a rational will.

Digging the hole or eating the apple wasn’t a moral choice. It was simply something that they had been told that they must not do. But they did it anyway.

Digging is thus not contrary to their nature.

Neither is eating fruit contrary to ours.

The original sin, emancipation from God, and particular sins, are in fact contrary to our nature as human beings.

The sin was one of disobedience. Don’t eat that apple! Don’t dig a hole in my petunias! Once the act was done, there was a realisation that someone was going to be pretty angry. Hence the hiding when the guy making the rules makes an appearance.

But again, am I in any way culpable in that there is now a large hole in my wife’s flower bed? Let’s face it, I just knew they would do it. I’d be an idiot not to know. And God, well, Him being omni-this and omni-that, He knew the apple was going to get eaten as well.

 

[Oreoracle]

The original sin, emancipation from God, and particular sins, are in fact contrary to our nature as human beings.

But isn’t the fact that we sin proof that it is natural for us to sin? Didn’t Adam and Eve sin naturally without any interference from God apart from how he designed them?

If God created me for a purpose, then he dictated what would occur in my life beforehand. This includes sins. So in what sense can you say that I wasn’t designed to sin?

 

[Aloysium]

. . .Digging the hole or eating the apple wasn’t a moral choice. It was simply something that they had been told that they must not do. But they did it anyway. . . .

This will all make sense when you know Jesus. Let me introduce you as best I can.

Christianity is about the living person Jesus who is man and God.
Christianity is all about one’s relationship to Him.
This is a forum where people share ideas and beliefs.
But Christianity is not exactly a belief system: we believe Him and not really “in” Him.
Jesus is the incarnation of the Word of God.
It is through the Word of God that the cosmos came into existence.
The Word appears in time reaching out to mankind, as is described in scripture making ready for His being made flesh in Jesus at the Centre of history.

God is a Trinity.
He is love because He transcends individuality.
He is relationally itself, perfected as love.
God does not need anything but Himself to be Love.

God the Father gives everything that He is to the Son (the Word/Jesus).
The Son returns that love by His obedience in carrying out the will of the Father.

God wanted to bring His creation into this loving relationship.
The infinite love, beauty and life was meant to be shared, and it would have been from the start if we had done His will, rendering unto God what is God’s.

The eating of the fruit damaged the connection between us and God.
In our hearts where God should be, now we are.
He is the Source of all, sustaining us in each moment.

We were created to share the eternal joys of heaven in loving union with God.
Now we are doomed to pain, suffering and death.
But there is a cure for this deadly affliction - Jesus Christ.

Through Him we are saved and redeemed.
He takes on our pain and our sin, that we may live with Him in the resurrection.
He is the Way.
He has established His Holy Church on earth, in which our participation allows for the speediest, truest and surest path to God.

Hope this helps to understand the context and get a clearer idea of what it is that you are asserting does not exist.

 

[Bradski]

The eating of the fruit damaged the connection between us and God.

Do you think that He knew the fruit was going to be eaten?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Two of the oldest bibles use evil…makes sense. This one of the reasons that the verses of the bible give no proof of anything regarding god (s). one researching the subject is forced to draw their own conclusions because of the multiple interpretations that are possible.
It is like any other form of research. Some sources just prove to be unreliable and must be discarded.

Have you met gray? Gray is great, not everything is black and white.

You are not taking into consideration the linguistic aspects of translations.

Hebrew is the language of people from the region of the Middle East. Its original form is very ancient. Coincidentally (Insert complaint, smart remark or something irrelevant here), this language stopped being used right before the birth of our Lord when the Jews were expulsed/segregated from their land during the Roman invasions.

Hebrew is written horizontally from right to left. Their alphabet has up of 22 consonants, 5 of which are written in a different form if they appear at the end of a word. Some consonants can be modified by the addition of a dot to represent a vowel. The Hebrew alphabet does not consist of vowels. And it’s a language of symbols.

The Roman invasion was so significant that the Hebrew Scriptural writings (There was no Bible) were translated in Koine Greek (Septuagint-which is really a collection of scrolls and not an Edition by today standards). Greek consists of 17 consonants and 7 vowels and it was adapted from the Phoenician alphabet (~3,000 years ago). Greek was the first alphabet to use letters for both consonants and vowel sounds.

And I’m not even getting into Grammar/Verb/Tense.

Before Scriptures were translated into English, they were translated into Latin. Which, thankfully, is more phonologically consistent with English. But still, whenever you move into a translation from a translation or translate from a non-vowel language into a vowel language, mistakes will happen.

In the case of god…that leaves only observation.

To even try and mix God into a translation issue is… well… irrelevant.

We are made in God’s image, not the other way around.

 

[Amandil]

Not immoral. Just wrong. Get your daughters a dog and you’ll understand that they definitely know when they are doing something that you don’t want them to. ‘Dig a hole in the garden/eat that apple and so help me, I’ll kill you!’

“Wrong” as imposed on you arbitrarily not opposed to their nature as dogs.

I have three dogs now. I’ve had dogs all my life. They only “know” that they are doing something they’re not “supposed”(positively, not naturally) to by the sound of my voice and me telling them “no”.

5 seconds later they’re following their instincts and their noses and doing whatever anyway.

Digging the hole or eating the apple wasn’t a moral choice. It was simply something that they had been told that they must not do. But they did it anyway.

You clearly are deficient in your understanding of context.

Neither is eating fruit contrary to ours.

Again, you clearly lack any understanding of the theological context.

The sin was one of disobedience. Don’t eat that apple! Don’t dig a hole in my petunias! Once the act was done, there was a realisation that someone was going to be pretty angry. Hence the hiding when the guy making the rules makes an appearance.

If merely eating an “apple”(why so many people choose that fruit when nowhere in scripture is it mentioned what fruit is implied as the “forbidden fruit” is beyond me), was sinful then that act would not be contrary to human nature. There were plenty of trees in the garden and they were permitted to eat of any of them, this I’m sure would include the apple trees.

It was more than disobedience, though disobedience was sufficient for it to be sinful. It was what was sought in the disobedience which made the disobedience so grave.

Instinctual ear from physical harm is one thing, shame is another. Their shame before God demonstrated the failure of the very thing promised by Satan in the temptation of eating the fruit, "you will be like gods…. They knew shame, they knew good from evil, but they were anything but “gods” before God.

And God, well, Him being omni-this and omni-that, He knew the apple was going to get eaten as well.

Omniscience PRESUPPOSES FREE WILL(I don’t know how much more clear I can make this). God’s foreknowledge includes the fact that Adam and Eve freely chose to eat the forbidden fruit.

Therefore omniscience cannot be an argument against free will.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What apple are we talking about?

An evil granny smith?

 

[Bradski]

God’s foreknowledge includes the fact that Adam and Eve freely chose to eat the forbidden fruit.

He knew they were going to freely choose it? Badda bing!

What apple are we talking about? An evil granny smith?

I’m partial to a Cox’s Pippin myself.

 

[Amandil]

But isn’t the fact that we sin proof that it is natural for us to sin?

That is one messed up anthropology and runs contrary to Genesis 1 & 2.

If sin was “natural”, then you can have no reason to call anything evil, such as murder, rape, theft, etc. because such acts would have to be accepted as “natural”.

It’s nothing but an invitation to relativistic chaos.

Didn’t Adam and Eve sin naturally without any interference from God apart from how he designed them?

Naturally? No, not “naturally”. They were deceived into sin. And it is only because of that deception that Salvation is offered as a possibility.

If God created me for a purpose, then he dictated what would occur in my life beforehand. This includes sins. So in what sense can you say that I wasn’t designed to sin?

As I told Bradski:
Omniscience PRESUPPOSES FREE WILL(I don’t know how much more clear I can make this).

God’s foreknowledge includes all of your freely chosen acts. You dictated your acts and in the same instant He sees all of your free acts as you make them.

Therefore omniscience cannot be an argument against free will. Your premise only works is God sees or anticipates as if its a “future” which he “sees.”

So there is no 'dictated" on the part of God; your acts are your own.

 

[Amandil]

He knew they were going to freely choose it? Badda bing!

This is what passes for “logic” among atheists?

It apparently doesn’t matter that your position is refuted. Just keep repeating it over and over and over…

 

[Aloysium]

Do you think that He knew the fruit was going to be eaten?

He sees me take communion, hoping to grow in the Way that is the person of Jesus. He witnesses His Son’s surrender to the Father’s will and sees His crucifixion. He knows the fruit is being eaten in the garden.
God is Truth and Being; there is nowhere and no time in which He is not.

You are asking a question from a position of mistrust and unfortunately, it is all about trusting Jesus.
You will not let someone into your house whom you do not trust. You will not even let that person walk your dogs.
You have a dilemma here, because Christ is our salvation. It is good to know the person who has saved your life; don’t worry, He does not give up.

 

[Bradski]

God’s foreknowledge includes all of your freely chosen acts. You dictated your acts and in the same instant He sees all of your free acts as you make them.

I think we all agree that He didn’t make us eat the apple (I’m going to stick with the apple), but he knew that we would.

Just like I knew my dog would dig the hole. And let’s face it, I have to hold my hand up there and accept the blame. It was my fault, not the pooch. If I didn’t get the dog, put him in the garden and tempt him with a bone, he wouldn’t have dug the hole.

So let’s put the blame where some of it belongs.

 

[Bradski]

You are asking a question from a position of mistrust and unfortunately, it is all about trusting Jesus.

A simple yes or no would do. Amandil says God knew that we would freely choose to eat it. Do you?

 

[Amandil]

I think we all agree that He didn’t make us eat the apple (I’m going to stick with the apple), but he knew that we would.

Just like I knew my dog would dig the hole. And let’s face it, I have to hold my hand up there and accept the blame. It was my fault, not the pooch. If I didn’t get the dog, put him in the garden and tempt him with a bone, he wouldn’t have dug the hole.

So let’s put the blame where some of it belongs.

That you are still comparing humans to dogs says everything about your rationale.

And that you still don’t fully understand and continue to misrepresent the Christian position as well.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m partial to a Cox’s Pippin myself.

Akane for me.

/cheers (We’ll pretend it’s cider )

 

[Bradski]

This is what passes for “logic” among atheists?

Let’s back the truck up a little. You said:

God’s foreknowledge includes the fact that Adam and Eve freely chose to eat the forbidden fruit.

I’m happy with that. So I repeated it to make sure.

He knew they were going to freely choose it?

Let’s be clear – I’m repeating what you said. So is it not logical? How is what you have said not logical? And how does my repeating it…

…misrepresent the Christian position as well.

Look, I’m not arguing that God made us do this or that. That’s what free will is for. He didn’t want a bunch of pre-programmed robots. So He let us choose. But it seems very difficult indeed to get anyone to agree that He knew that what we would choose.

And by knowing what we would choose, He is complicent in the outcome because all of it is of His making.

Akane for me. /cheers (We’ll pretend it’s cider )

Well, it’s nearly beer o’clock so I might treat myself very soon. Cheers…