God created us out of His Divine Love

[atheistgirl]

You might find it helpful to read the article, “Bible As Dark Biblical “Weirdness” - Atheists Attack God as a monster” that was written by Father John Flynn, LC on February 20, 2011 from Rome: zenit.org/article-31799?l=english

Thank you for this link. I read it through, and it is interesting. But it raises more questions with me than it answers.
One central point is that God was slowly moving the people to the point where they could receive the Gospel, and also noting that the Old Testament punishments were actually not so bad as in other cultures at the same time.
It would have been good if this claim was backed up with references so it could be checked. It also made me think that it’s a weak position to claim you are more merciful because you only cut off one hand and an ear, instead of two, for theft.
I dont understand the progressive arguement. God gave Moses some absolutes. Commandments written on stone! Yet almost immediately Moses engaged in wholesale genocide of another tribe, keeping alive the virgins (children!!) for their pleasure. It seems very strange to me that this is somehow a moral progression, given they had just received a command not to kill. There is something in the Bible about masturbation and theres a few threads here on the immorality of such pleasure, and yet Moses ordered the kidnapping of virgin children to ‘‘keep for yourselves’’ !!!
I just cant get my head around that being some sort of moral progression as argued by the writer you linked.
As I said, thank you - an interesting read - but it raised more questions than it answered.

Sarah x

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Perhaps, this “creating creatures for worship” is seen as God knowing the inner desires of the human person. (This goes back to Pascal’s Wager. The belief is that if you go to the Christian side of the wager and start to worship, you will realize your inner desire to love your Creator unconditionally.) We can also see it as a fulfillment of the promises of eternal life by telling us to worship Him, our Creator.

Hello Gregg. Nice to meet you. Old time Catholics like myself do worship God:vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060709_valencia_en.html

As far as Pascal’s Wager I don’t agree with it. B. Sury from the Indian Statistical Institute, Bangalore has written about Pascal. Here is an excerpt from the pdf:

“Pascal wrote the philosophical work Pensées towards the end of his life. This is a collection of his thoughts on human suffering and faith in God which he began in late 1656 and continued to work on during 1657 and 1658. This work contains ‘Pascal’s wager’ which claims to prove that belief in God is rational with the following argument: “Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us consider the two possibilities. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Hesitate not, then, to wager that He is.” In the seventh chapter of Pensées, he tries to apply his probability theory to argue that it is worthwhile to be religious. He argues that, as the value of eternal happiness must be infinite, then, even if the probability of a religious life ensuring eternal happiness be very small, still the expectation (which is measured by the product of the two) must be of sufficient magnitude to make it worthwhile to be religious! Pascal died at the age of 39 in intense pain after a malignant growth in his stomach spread to the brain.”
ias.ac.in/resonance/Jan2004/pdf/Jan2004AIB.pdf

It appears to me that Pascal began to think of God when he was in physical pain. I wouldn’t consider that to be a logical reason to believe in God. Physical pain can distort a person’s mind.

I support these three quotes from the LETTER OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II TO REVEREND GEORGE V. COYNE, S.J., DIRECTOR OF THE VATICAN OBSERVATORY on June 1, 1988:

1. “The unity we perceive in creation on the basis of our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord of the universe, and the correlative unity for which we strive in our human communities, seems to be reflected and even reinforced in what contemporary science is revealing to us. As we behold the incredible development of scientific research we detect an underlying movement towards the discovery of levels of law and process which unify created reality and which at the same time have given rise to the vast diversity of structures and organisms which constitute the physical and biological, and even the psychological and sociological, worlds.”
2. “Both the Church and the scientific community are faced with such inescapable alternatives. We shall make our choices much better of we live in a collaborative interaction in which we are called continually to be more. Only a dynamic relationship between theology and science can reveal those limits which support the integrity of either discipline, so that theology does not profess a pseudo-science and science does not become an unconscious theology. Our knowledge of each other can lead us to be more authentically ourselves.”
3. “The Church does not propose that science should become religion or religion science.”

Pope John Paul II was against about pseudo-science and so am I. Therefore, I don’t accept Intelligent Design as a Theory of Information by William A. Dembski, BLAISE PASCAL FELLOW IN PROBABILITY, CENTER FOR THE RENEWAL OF SCIENCE AND CULTURE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE. I’m not a proponent of the Intelligent Design Movement.

Also, It’s pretty common knowledge that every pre-school child is taught Sense of Touch, Sense of Taste, Sense of Smell, Sense of Sight, and Sense of Sound. It’s part of the physical sciences. The website is from the National Science Teachers Association: preschoolrainbow.org/5senses.htm. It doesn’t have anything to do with a belief system. Henceforth, I disagree with Blaise Pascal pense #67: The vanity of the sciences.-- Physical science will not console me for the ignorance of morality in the time of affliction. But the science of ethics will always console me for the ignorance of the physical sciences. oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/pascal/pensees-a.html

My message #39 to this topic contained the ANGELUS, Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity, Saint Peter’s Square, Sunday, 7 June 2009: (vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20090607_en.html) was a religious statement by BENEDICT XVI (The Successor of Peter 9 [who] Teaches Infallibly: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930317en.html) And I did say, “This is how I understand God and his existence.”

Sarah, I’ll have to get back to you later. In the meantime, can you be more specific? Please give to me the particular text within the document I gave you that corresponds to what you have just stated. That would be helpful. And any biblical text that supports your claim.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with you the vast majority of pro life supports would not actually kill an adult human being to save an as yet unborn human being. But it’s that fundamentalist religious mind that allows stuff like that to happen. The guy was executed and called on his ''followers to kill as many abortionists as they could. He was smiling and singing hymns on the way to his execution, and said he was looking forward to paradise. Does that have any echos in another mainstream religious belief?

A minority of fanatics are not evidence that religion is either false or evil (or both - as Dawkins claims).

The criterion is whether an action or command is consistent with the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father.

So if I read the early books of the Bible, what you’re saying is I have to take literally everything that confirms God as a loving father, but ignore or take metaphorically or allegorically everything and anything that might contradict that view? Can you see why I would have problems with that approach?

Not if we remember the early books were written by members of a primitive tribe!

Innate but not inevitable! Many choose to be uncaring and indifferent to the needs of others.

Sadly, this is true, But as the vast majority have a faith of some sort, this means the ‘‘many’’ you refer to includes a huge number of people with faith.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak…

Is our humanity adequately explained by purposeless processes?

The process of me growing, developing, meeting my husband, marrying, having my children, teaching them, setting up in business, earning my degrees, watching my family grow and develop and become wonderful human beings, meeting strangers and from there fostering live long friendships, looking after my animals and my own little bit of land, never losing that feeling of awe and wonder at a shooting star, or a full moon, or watching the sun rise… is anything but purposeless processes.
It’s completely in synch with the rhythms and rhymes of nature and the world.
And it’s wonderful.

I entirely agree with you, Sarah. Anyone who believes all this is due to fortuitous combinations of atoms is hopelessly illogical! uch:

 

[Ranklyfrank]

A minority of fanatics are not evidence that religion is either false or evil (or both - as Dawkins claims).

No, but it allows for that. And what it does do, imo, is demonstrate that there is a functional disconnect between belief and behavior. And it is why I continue to maintain that formal religion is a step before spirituality and even perhaps a step before atheism, where atheism represents the sanity required to do a thorough self examination based on universals as distinct from parochialisms. That hols so long as those universals are not taken to collapse Reality into the monological view of depthless scientism.

Not if we remember the early books were written by members of a primitive tribe!

And that is where there is not in religions, as there is in science, teleological editing. Imagine what our science texts might look like if they still insisted that phlogiston had to be taken as part of the body of currently accepted theoretical knowledge with the proviso that it is primitive but could still be used to explain things we don’t get, and in talking about science as a practice. No; it’s a foot note of history, not a part of current usage, which itself will change with discovery. The Church doesn’t allow itself that useful grace.

And as for “primitive tribe.” look around you . What do you thing WE are??? Do technical toys make a civilization? For my part, I agree with Mahatma Gandhi. After a tour of the industrial marvels of London he was asked "So what do you think of Western civilization, Mr. Gandhi? Without missing a beat he said “I think it wold be a very good idea!” I agree.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak…

That is because what people of faith generally have is thoughts about Spirit, not experience with Spirit.

I entirely agree with you, Sarah. Anyone who believes all this is due to fortuitous combinations of atoms is hopelessly illogical! uch:

As is anyone who is a believer in the Judaeo/Christian God as purported. Such belief may be a symbolic parallel, but it is very like mistaking a map for the territory itself. This is demonstrable through a rigorous course of self inquiry which is capable of revealing the actual position of faith in the scheme of things, useful as it might be as an evolutionary ad hoc. and as Sarah lives in an age whre the world of the Nature religions has been seperated out inot its four actual quadrants, she might very usefully learn more from her pastoral involvement about what you call God than through any fogma. I mean dogma.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Science tells us how to live physically but not morally, socially or personally …]

Hi tonyrey. Science does address social and moral issues.

1. Association for Psychological Science. You can skim through some of the articles here: cdp.sagepub.com/content/current
2. Environmental Sciences, Public Health, and Occupational and Environmental Medicine.
   Here is an example from The Lancet, Vol 374, December 5, 2009:

Ending intimate partner violence
*In an ideal world, women and girls would be treated equally to men and boys and they would be free from harm in their intimate personal relationships and in the communities in which they live and work. Sadly, this situation does not exist in either developed or
developing countries.

On Nov 25—the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women—the UK Government took steps to address this problem with the launch of a new strategy to end violence against women and girls. In England and Wales, around 4・8 million women have
experienced at least one incident of domestic abuse since the age of 16 years. And about
10, 000 women are sexually assaulted, and 2000 are raped, every week. Traditionally, the UK has responded to violence against women after the abuse has occurred, through the criminal justice system and via health and support services. The new strategy goes further by also focusing on the prevention of violence against women and girls. The government will develop a national communications programme designed to address attitudes about violence
against women and they will add gender equality and ending violence against women to the school curriculum. Educating children about these issues is a commendable part of the strategy because negative attitudes towards women and girls can be ingrained from an early age. Children might witness the abuse of their mother or they might be abused themselves and normalise these behaviours later in life.

Moreover, a study in December’s American Journal of Public Health shows that intimate partner violence in the USA takes a similar toll on health in same-sex and opposite-sex couples. And a 2009 survey by the UK’s National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children of over 1350 13–17-year-olds in intimate relationships found that 18% of boys had experienced some form of physical violence.

The UK Government’s current strategy to end violence against women and girls should take into account the complexities of intimate partner violence. Communities must work to make such violent acts socially unacceptable and morally abhorrent.*
download.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140673609620778.pdf

1. Here are two article’s that come off a feed from the American Association for the
   Advancement of Science:
   a. Journal of Applied Psychology -** Holier than thou? Employees who believe they
   are ‘ethical’ or ‘moral’ people might not be**:
   eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/uow-htt103007.php
   
   b. Educational, Child and Adolescent Psychology - Child soldier trauma in Uganda
   shares similarities with Northern Ireland:
   eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-02/qub-cst021011.php
2. Journal of Applied Psychology: *The Journal of Applied Psychology emphasizes the
   publication of original investigations that contribute new knowledge and understanding
   to fields of applied psychology (other than clinical and applied experimental or human
   factors, which are more appropriate for other American Psychological Association
   journals). The journal primarily considers empirical and theoretical investigations that
   enhance understanding of cognitive, motivational, affective, and behavioral
   psychological phenomena. Those psychological phenomena can be at one or multiple
   levels—individuals, groups, organizations, or cultures; in work settings such as
   business, education, training, health, service, government, or military institutions; and in
   the public or private sector, for-profit or nonprofit. The journal publishes several types of
   articles: Theoretically driven and rigorously conducted empirical investigations that
   extend conceptual understanding (original investigations or meta-analyses);
   Theory development that synthesizes literature and creates new theory of psychological
   phenomena that will stimulate novel research (not extended literature reviews that do not
   advance theory); Descriptive research on applied psychological phenomena lacking
   basic knowledge in the literature that will provide a foundation for building new knowledge
   and theory (such studies should be directed at providing novel data on important and
   unknown phenomena, e.g., time frames for team development or socialization; dynamics
   of affect, performance, or other behaviors; discovery and documentation of new,
   important, and meaningful phenomena); and Rigorously conducted qualitative research
   on phenomena that are difficult to capture with quantitative methods.
   
   The journal accepts work that is conducted in the field or in the laboratory, where the data
   (quantitative or qualitative) are analyzed with elegant or simple statistics, so long as the
   data or theoretical synthesis advances understanding of psychological phenomena and
   human behavior that have practical implications.*
   apa.org/pubs/journals/apl/index.aspx

The ‘Pontifical Academy of Science – which counts more than 40 Nobel prizewinners among its members’ don’t insult the Pope or his followers. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_20000915_doc_iii-2000-sym_en.html

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Thanks, LB. Gandhi was right. Western, or any civilization would be a very good idea. As most of the wold is religious, it would appear that religion by itself isn’t up to the task. I say this because while most religion is to a great degree acquired, usually in the hypnotic state of the first seven years, those individuals seem yet to have a kind of egocentricity about morals that purports Divine association bu functionally very often does not. On the other hand, those folks, even atheists in my experience, who do a rigorous and intense self examination come through it with a moral structure that is a function of identity as distinct from an added, like software, belief. That actually might be a good analogy: ordinarily religion is software. Actual morality is hard wired. And it may or may not stem from religious standares, and when it does, it is a coincidental, not actual, relationship.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Ranklyfrank, God is love! Your comment is elusive, doesn’t deal with:

Hi tonyrey. Science does address social and moral issues.

1. Association for Psychological Science. You can skim through some of the articles here: cdp.sagepub.com/content/current
2. Environmental Sciences, Public Health, and Occupational and Environmental Medicine.
   Here is an example from The Lancet, Vol 374, December 5, 2009:

Ending intimate partner violence
*In an ideal world, women and girls would be treated equally to men and boys and they would be free from harm in their intimate personal relationships and in the communities in which they live and work. Sadly, this situation does not exist in either developed or
developing countries.

On Nov 25—the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women—the UK Government took steps to address this problem with the launch of a new strategy to end violence against women and girls. In England and Wales, around 4・8 million women have
experienced at least one incident of domestic abuse since the age of 16 years. And about
10, 000 women are sexually assaulted, and 2000 are raped, every week. Traditionally, the UK has responded to violence against women after the abuse has occurred, through the criminal justice system and via health and support services. The new strategy goes further by also focusing on the prevention of violence against women and girls. The government will develop a national communications programme designed to address attitudes about violence
against women and they will add gender equality and ending violence against women to the school curriculum. Educating children about these issues is a commendable part of the strategy because negative attitudes towards women and girls can be ingrained from an early age. Children might witness the abuse of their mother or they might be abused themselves and normalise these behaviours later in life.

Moreover, a study in December’s American Journal of Public Health shows that intimate partner violence in the USA takes a similar toll on health in same-sex and opposite-sex couples. And a 2009 survey by the UK’s National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children of over 1350 13–17-year-olds in intimate relationships found that 18% of boys had experienced some form of physical violence.

The UK Government’s current strategy to end violence against women and girls should take into account the complexities of intimate partner violence. Communities must work to make such violent acts socially unacceptable and morally abhorrent.*
download.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140673609620778.pdf

1. Here are two article’s that come off a feed from the American Association for the
   Advancement of Science:
   a. Journal of Applied Psychology -** Holier than thou? Employees who believe they
   are ‘ethical’ or ‘moral’ people might not be**:
   eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/uow-htt103007.php
   
   b. Educational, Child and Adolescent Psychology - Child soldier trauma in Uganda
   shares similarities with Northern Ireland:
   eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-02/qub-cst021011.php
2. Journal of Applied Psychology: *The Journal of Applied Psychology emphasizes the
   publication of original investigations that contribute new knowledge and understanding
   to fields of applied psychology (other than clinical and applied experimental or human
   factors, which are more appropriate for other American Psychological Association
   journals). The journal primarily considers empirical and theoretical investigations that
   enhance understanding of cognitive, motivational, affective, and behavioral
   psychological phenomena. Those psychological phenomena can be at one or multiple
   levels—individuals, groups, organizations, or cultures; in work settings such as
   business, education, training, health, service, government, or military institutions; and in
   the public or private sector, for-profit or nonprofit. The journal publishes several types of
   articles: Theoretically driven and rigorously conducted empirical investigations that
   extend conceptual understanding (original investigations or meta-analyses);
   Theory development that synthesizes literature and creates new theory of psychological
   phenomena that will stimulate novel research (not extended literature reviews that do not
   advance theory); Descriptive research on applied psychological phenomena lacking
   basic knowledge in the literature that will provide a foundation for building new knowledge
   and theory (such studies should be directed at providing novel data on important and
   unknown phenomena, e.g., time frames for team development or socialization; dynamics
   of affect, performance, or other behaviors; discovery and documentation of new,
   important, and meaningful phenomena); and Rigorously conducted qualitative research
   on phenomena that are difficult to capture with quantitative methods.
   
   The journal accepts work that is conducted in the field or in the laboratory, where the data
   (quantitative or qualitative) are analyzed with elegant or simple statistics, so long as the
   data or theoretical synthesis advances understanding of psychological phenomena and
   human behavior that have practical implications.*
   apa.org/pubs/journals/apl/index.aspx

The ‘Pontifical Academy of Science – which counts more than 40 Nobel prizewinners among its members’ don’t insult the Pope or his followers. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_20000915_doc_iii-2000-sym_en.html

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Ranklyfrank, I’ve submitted quite a few messages to this topic on page 3. They should all be read. Below is another one. Mind answering my question, and what kind of theist are you?

Ranklyfrank;7588571:

I read this. Even as a former Catholic and as a current theist, I find it refutable in several ways. I don’t buy it.

Hi Ranklyfrank. I’m a woman over 50 years of age and been a Catholic all my life. Never waivered from it. Curious to know what kind of theist you are now since you claim you aren’t a Catholic any longer. What do you disagree with pertaining the article, “Bible As Dark Biblical “Weirdness” - Atheists Attack God as a monster” ( zenit.org/article-31799?l=english )that was written by Father John Flynn, LC on February 20, 2011 from Rome?

Doesn’t seem like the Church is hurting for Catholics:

Permalink: zenit.org/article-31803?l=english
GLOBAL CATHOLIC POPULATION CONTINUES TO GROW

Nearly Half of Church’s Members Live in the Americas

VATICAN CITY, FEB. 20, 2011 (Zenit.org).- The number of baptized Catholics on the planet continues to grow and half of their number are in the Americas. The number of priests and seminarians is also on the rise.

This is some of what can be learned from the data of the 2011 papal yearbook, the Annuario Pontificio, presented to Benedict XVI on Saturday morning by his secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, and Archbishop Fernando Filoni, undersecretary for general affairs.

The statistical data from the year 2009 furnish a summary view of the principal dynamics of the Catholic Church in her 2,956 ecclesiastical entities across the globe: The number of baptized Catholics has increased from nearly 1.16 billion in 2008 to 1.18 billion in 2009, with an absolute increase of 15 million faithful.

The distribution of Catholics among the continents differs notably from that of the population. In regard to percentage of the global population, between 2008 and 2009 the Americas did not change, keeping at a steady 13.6%. In the same two years, the number of Catholics in the Americas climbed to a level that constitutes 49.4% of the Catholic population of the world.
In Asia the Catholic population grew from 10.6% to 10.7% while the total population of Asia is 60.7% of the world’s population.

The total population of Europe, with respect to the total population of the globe, was three points below that of the Americas and represented 24% of the world’s Catholic population.
The countries of Africa and Oceania were both reported to be 15.2% of the world’s population and 0.8% of the total Catholic population of the planet.

Between 2008 and 2009 the number of bishops in the world grew from 5,002 to 5,065, increasing 1.3%. Africa led in this growth (1.8%), followed by Oceania (1.5%), while Asia and the Americas were below the median at 0.8% and 1.2% respectively. Europe was on a par with the median at 1.3%.

The number of priests continues the trend of moderate increase that began in 2000. The number of diocesan and religious priests grew in the last decade from 405,178 in 2000 to 410,593 in 2009.

In 2009 the number of priests increased by 0.34% over 2008. This figure derives from the 0.08% decrease in religious priests and the 0.56% increase in diocesan priests. There was a decrease in religious priests on every continent except for Asia and Africa. The number of permanent deacons increased 2.5% between 2008 and 2009, from 37,203 to 38,155.

The total population of professed women religious decreased from 739,068 in 2008 to 729,371 in 2009, despite the growth in numbers in Africa and Asia.

The number of candidates for the priesthood has climbed 0.82%, increasing from 117,024 in 2008 to 117,978 in 2009. A large part of the growth is attributable to Asia and Africa where the percentages of increase were 2.39% and 2.2% respectively. Europe and the Americas registered contractions of 1.64% and 0.17% respectively during the period.
Have a nice day.

As you know, Tonyrey, I’m a theist. But I can easily see how moral systems and moral progress can be made without reference to a Deity. Two bases for such systems are commonality and survival. There are non religious ways to see that. And the very observation that there are tens of thousands of religions, each purporting to be moral guides, all of which fail for members of any one of them, we can also say that religion is not an adequate base, or even belief in God. Again let’s notice that prison population reflect the general demographic by faith. And those folks have their own “morality” based on the perceived needs of their community.

You don’t even know what you are talking about! Provide me scientific articles that support your bias, otherwise I’ll dismiss it as a fabricated lie. My religion is definately supported by
statistics too. I’ll be honest here, I’m sick and tired of people coming to Catholic Answers Forums that put down my religion. Poking little jabs at my religion makes me very concerned for the mental health and well-being of me and other Catholics that post here that are kind and attempting to listen, observe and help people with a sincere heart. If I see any more ill manners then I am going to leave Catholic Answers or report it to a moderator.

 

[tonyrey]

Hi tonyrey. Science does address social and moral issues.

1. Association for Psychological Science. You can skim through some of the articles here: cdp.sagepub.com/content/current
2. Environmental Sciences, Public Health, and Occupational and Environmental Medicine.
   Here is an example from The Lancet, Vol 374, December 5, 2009:

Ending intimate partner violence
*In an ideal world, women and girls would be treated equally to men and boys and they would be free from harm in their intimate personal relationships and in the communities in which they live and work. Sadly, this situation does not exist in either developed or
developing countries.

On Nov 25—the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women—the UK Government took steps to address this problem with the launch of a new strategy to end violence against women and girls. In England and Wales, around 4・8 million women have
experienced at least one incident of domestic abuse since the age of 16 years. And about
10, 000 women are sexually assaulted, and 2000 are raped, every week. Traditionally, the UK has responded to violence against women after the abuse has occurred, through the criminal justice system and via health and support services. The new strategy goes further by also focusing on the prevention of violence against women and girls. The government will develop a national communications programme designed to address attitudes about violence
against women and they will add gender equality and ending violence against women to the school curriculum. Educating children about these issues is a commendable part of the strategy because negative attitudes towards women and girls can be ingrained from an early age. Children might witness the abuse of their mother or they might be abused themselves and normalise these behaviours later in life.

Moreover, a study in December’s American Journal of Public Health shows that intimate partner violence in the USA takes a similar toll on health in same-sex and opposite-sex couples. And a 2009 survey by the UK’s National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children of over 1350 13–17-year-olds in intimate relationships found that 18% of boys had experienced some form of physical violence.

The UK Government’s current strategy to end violence against women and girls should take into account the complexities of intimate partner violence. Communities must work to make such violent acts socially unacceptable and morally abhorrent.*
download.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140673609620778.pdf

1. Here are two articles that come off a feed from the American Association for the
   Advancement of Science:
   a. Journal of Applied Psychology -** Holier than thou? Employees who believe they
   are ‘ethical’ or ‘moral’ people might not be**:
   eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/uow-htt103007.php
   
   b. Educational, Child and Adolescent Psychology - Child soldier trauma in Uganda
   shares similarities with Northern Ireland:
   eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-02/qub-cst021011.php
2. Journal of Applied Psychology: *The Journal of Applied Psychology emphasizes the
   publication of original investigations that contribute new knowledge and understanding
   to fields of applied psychology (other than clinical and applied experimental or human
   factors, which are more appropriate for other American Psychological Association
   journals). The journal primarily considers empirical and theoretical investigations that
   enhance understanding of cognitive, motivational, affective, and behavioral
   psychological phenomena. Those psychological phenomena can be at one or multiple
   levels—individuals, groups, organizations, or cultures; in work settings such as
   business, education, training, health, service, government, or military institutions; and in
   the public or private sector, for-profit or nonprofit. The journal publishes several types of
   articles: Theoretically driven and rigorously conducted empirical investigations that
   extend conceptual understanding (original investigations or meta-analyses);
   Theory development that synthesizes literature and creates new theory of psychological
   phenomena that will stimulate novel research (not extended literature reviews that do not
   advance theory); Descriptive research on applied psychological phenomena lacking
   basic knowledge in the literature that will provide a foundation for building new knowledge
   and theory (such studies should be directed at providing novel data on important and
   unknown phenomena, e.g., time frames for team development or socialization; dynamics
   of affect, performance, or other behaviors; discovery and documentation of new,
   important, and meaningful phenomena); and Rigorously conducted qualitative research
   on phenomena that are difficult to capture with quantitative methods…
   apa.org/pubs/journals/apl/index.aspx

The ‘Pontifical Academy of Science – which counts more than 40 Nobel prizewinners among its members’ don’t insult the Pope or his followers. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_20000915_doc_iii-2000-sym_en.html

I agree that science can throw light on moral issues but it cannot establish moral principles or serve as a foundation for the right to life or the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. It is restricted to the way we can live successfully from a **natural **point of view - which is obviously not sufficient for a person with spiritual values.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

I agree that science can throw light on moral issues but it cannot establish moral principles or serve as a foundation for the right to life or the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. It is restricted to the way we can live successfully from a **natural **point of view - which is obviously not sufficient for a person with spiritual values.

We should live successfully by the principals of liberty and equality whether we are religious or non-religious. All values should be based on love and respect for religious and non-religous people. I am reminded of what John Paul II said while with the President of Ghana on his Apostolic Pilgrimage to Africa in May of 1980:

*So many of the values that are embodied in the culture of the African nations not only contribute to the building of each nation, but can add to the enrichment of other nations and peoples as well.

For Africa has something distinctive to offer to the world. One of the original aspects of this continent is its diversity, but a diversity that is bound together by the undeniable unity of its culture: a vision of the world where the sacred is central; a deep awareness of the link between Creator and nature; a great respect for all life; a sense of family and of community that blossoms into an open and joyful hospitality; reverence for dialogue as a means of settling differences and sharing insights; spontaneity and the joy of living expressed in poetic language, song and dance. All these aspects manifest a culture with an all encompassing spiritual dimension. This is what makes the African culture unique. This in what binds the many people of Africa together without hampering in the least that immense richness of local expressions or the heritage of single groups and regions.

By my own origin, education and history, I have learned to value highly the power that culture has for every people. During my visit to my native Poland, I stated this conviction as follows: "Culture is an expression of man, a confirmation of humanity. Man creates culture and through culture creates himself. He creates himself with the inward effort of the spirit, of thought, will and heart. At the same time he creates culture in communion with others. Culture is an expression of communication, of shared thought and collaboration by human beings. It is born of service of the common good and becomes as essential good of human communities. I therefore say to Ghana and all Africa: Preserve your culture. Let it become enriched through exchange with other cultures, but do not let your own culture die. Keep it alive, and offer it as your contribution to the world community.

Each nation brings to the family of nations its own cultural contribution, and through the legitimate expression of values and traditions there is possible a harmony among peoples that transcends partisan differences, prejudices and rivalries. Such a harmony, built on respect for and openness towards the values of others, in particular their moral and spiritual values, facilitates the possibility of concerted action on problems that extend beyond the borders of individual nations. Africa is called to bring fresh ideals and insights to a world that shows signs of fatigue and selfishness. I am convinced that you Africans can do this.

In stressing respect for moral and spiritual values in the sphere of international collaboration, I have touched on what I consider to be basic in all relationships in society. All structures that are created as expressions of needs and aspirations relate to the human person, for they are meant to serve each human person and the whole human community. This holds true especially of political structures and activities.*



Have a nice day. Never been to Africa but hope to one day. My nephew travels there to hunt big game with bow and arrow. Tons of trophies on his walls at home. I’m not a hunter, more the gather of flowers from my garden with vases filled with them throughout my home. Don’t get me wrong, I can still use a magnum or bow and arrow at the range with him.

 

[tonyrey]

We should live successfully by the principals of liberty and equality whether we are religious or non-religious. All values should be based on love and respect for religious and non-religous people. I am reminded of what John Paul II said while with the President of Ghana on his Apostolic Pilgrimage to Africa in May of 1980:

So many of the values that are embodied in the culture of the African nations not only contribute to the building of each nation, but can add to the enrichment of other nations and peoples as well.

“should” is the key word. If life is an accident is there any compelling reason for people to do anything?

*For Africa has something distinctive to offer to the world. One of the original aspects of this continent is its diversity, but a diversity that is bound together by the undeniable unity of its culture: a vision of the world where the sacred is central; a deep awareness of the link between Creator and nature; a great respect for all life; a sense of family and of community that blossoms into an open and joyful hospitality; reverence for dialogue as a means of settling differences and sharing insights; spontaneity and the joy of living expressed in poetic language, song and dance. All these aspects manifest a culture with an all encompassing spiritual dimension. This is what makes the African culture unique. This in what binds the many people of Africa together without hampering in the least that immense richness of local expressions or the heritage of single groups and regions.

By my own origin, education and history, I have learned to value highly the power that culture has for every people. During my visit to my native Poland, I stated this conviction as follows: "Culture is an expression of man, a confirmation of humanity. Man creates culture and through culture creates himself. He creates himself with the inward effort of the spirit, of thought, will and heart. At the same time he creates culture in communion with others. Culture is an expression of communication, of shared thought and collaboration by human beings. It is born of service of the common good and becomes as essential good of human communities. I therefore say to Ghana and all Africa: Preserve your culture. Let it become enriched through exchange with other cultures, but do not let your own culture die. Keep it alive, and offer it as your contribution to the world community.

Each nation brings to the family of nations its own cultural contribution, and through the legitimate expression of values and traditions there is possible a harmony among peoples that transcends partisan differences, prejudices and rivalries. Such a harmony, built on respect for and openness towards the values of others, in particular their moral and spiritual values, facilitates the possibility of concerted action on problems that extend beyond the borders of individual nations. Africa is called to bring fresh ideals and insights to a world that shows signs of fatigue and selfishness. I am convinced that you Africans can do this.

In stressing respect for moral and spiritual values in the sphere of international collaboration, I have touched on what I consider to be basic in all relationships in society. All structures that are created as expressions of needs and aspirations relate to the human person, for they are meant to serve each human person and the whole human community. This holds true especially of political structures and activities.*

The beauty of Catholicism is that it is truly catholic and has incorporated different cultures into the life of the Church, even endowing pagan customs with Christian significance.

Have a nice day. Never been to Africa but hope to one day. My nephew travels there to hunt big game with bow and arrow. Tons of trophies on his walls at home. I’m not a hunter, more the gather of flowers from my garden with vases filled with them throughout my home. Don’t get me wrong, I can still use a magnum or bow and arrow at the range with him.

I did a lot of shooting there - with a camera. It’s a photographer’s paradise…

 

[LogisticsBranch]

“should” is the key word. If life is an accident is there any compelling reason for people to do anything?

The beauty of Catholicism is that it is truly catholic and has incorporated different cultures into the life of the Church, even endowing pagan customs with Christian significance.
I did a lot of shooting there - with a camera. It’s a photographer’s paradise…

As I stated, “We should live successfully by the principals of liberty and equality whether we are religious or non-religious. All values should be based on love and respect for religious and non-religous people. I am reminded of what John Paul II said while with the President of Ghana on his Apostolic Pilgrimage to Africa in May of 1980.” Here’s the link wherein you can read the entire statement by him. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1980/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19800508_president-ghana_en.html
John Paul II surely isn’t suggesting that he is ‘endorsing pagan customs that are of Christian significance’ within his speech to the President of Ghana. Spiritual values does also entail
a ‘spiritual dimension’ as noted by the Pope. What you may value spiritually might not necessarily be considered spiritual in nature. Can you give me a document from a Pope that has specifically mentioned the usage you have used, “spiritual values.” That would be helpful. Thanks.

I’m a camera buff too! I’ve got a keen eye that catchs the most incrediable, close-up shots of life. Lately, it’s been my pup Grace. I caught her mid-stream diving off the bed. Her little face turned towards me with the most brilliant smile, eyes wide open with body fully stretched and the background was wallpapered walls with the most exquisite floral print. In her mouth was a miniture doll. I call her my search and rescue pup. lol!

Peace be with you. Have a nice day.

 

[tonyrey]

*“should” is the key word. If life is an accident is there any compelling reason for people to do anything?

I wrote "endowing pagan customs with Christian significance - which is quite different from endorsing!

I’m a camera buff too! I’ve got a keen eye that catchs the most incredible, close-up shots of life. Lately, it’s been my pup Grace. I caught her mid-stream diving off the bed. Her little face turned towards me with the most brilliant smile, eyes wide open with body fully stretched and the background was wallpapered walls with the most exquisite floral print. In her mouth was a miniture doll. I call her my search and rescue pup. lol!

Well done! Some of my best shots were in B&W. The biggest problem was taking Africans and Europeans together because of the wide contrast in skin colour. I learned to avoid doing it in the midday tropical sun…

Peace be with you. Have a nice day.

You too.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

I wrote "endowing pagan customs with Christian significance - which is quite different from endorsing!

Yes, you did write:

The beauty of Catholicism is that it is truly catholic and has incorporated different cultures into the life of the Church, even endowing pagan customs with Christian significance.

I still don’t see how the Pope’s article is endowing or endorsing pagan customs. There are Catholic Bishops in Africa that aren’t pagan.

Well done! Some of my best shots were in B&W. The biggest problem was taking Africans and Europeans together because of the wide contrast in skin colour. I learned to avoid doing it in the midday tropical sun…

Tonyrey, I don’t have any problem with skin color while photographing when I’m in a topical setting. Color and sunlight doesn’t affect my ability to snap a picture. I’ve hung around a couple of awesome photographers from National Geographic. They seem to manage and make it work. It appears to me that you are more interested in skin color. Just snap the shot. The best shots are done off the cuff so to speak unless you’re into models. At that point you will have to have them pose and natural light can make or break the photo. Good luck. What can I say, let me think…let me help to make your special day a memorable one!

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Ranklyfrank, I’ve submitted quite a few messages to this topic on page 3. They should all be read.

I did, before you asked. You don’t have to sound imperious about it… I’m happy that you are getting along well with Atheistgirl. Good for you. And I’m happy that you are involved in some fund raising projects. (I think…)

And that post is where I went to the weirdness article from. That article contained a number of flaws ranging from irrelevancies, to mixing apples and oranges, to unwarranted conclusions, etc, etc. Those have been sufficiently addressed ad nauseam elsewhere and I don’t like picking at scabs. If you persist, I will for your sake go through the article and name names, despite the hassle.

Below is another one.Mind answering my question…(?)

Thanks, I neither read that one nor did I respond to it. But since you ask:

Within Christianity, not all denominations have the same growth rate. Some annual growth rates are:
bullet Pentecostals: 8.1%
bullet Evangelicals: 5.4%;
bullet All Protestants: 3.3%
bullet Roman Catholics and Others: 1.3%

Since the growth rate of humanity is above 1.4%, the “market share” of Roman Catholicism and others appears to be slowly dropping.

~Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance.

You can go to CARA as well, here: cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

and what kind of theist are you?

A kind that is not an atheist/agnostic nor a religionist. Why do you ask?

You don’t even know what you are talking about! Provide me scientific articles that support your bias, otherwise I’ll dismiss it as a fabricated lie. My religion is definately supported by statistics too.

Actually, I do. Since you say “too,” I will assume that you know mine and will leave you to those. And since you have already dismissed it as a bias, that constituting a prejudice, why would I respond to such rudeness? Of course I have my view and understanding. Don’t you? But while yours appears to be heavily third partied, I earned mine. But that is another story. Nevertheless, I respect your 50 years of steadfastness. You surely have learned something from that.

I’ll be honest here, I’m sick and tired of people coming to Catholic Answers Forums that put down my religion. Poking little jabs at my religion makes me very concerned for the mental health and well-being of me and other Catholics that post here that are kind and attempting to listen, observe and help people with a sincere heart. If I see any more ill manners then I am going to leave Catholic Answers or report it to a moderator.

You must follow your conscience in this matter, with my full support. I am not here to put down your religion or anyone else’s, as my comments are almost always aimed at religion as such and not at yours. Moreover, I’m far less interested in any religion, including yours, than in how people think about them, and their level of clarity regarding how religion is acquired and transmitted. I’m on here because up through high school I had very high marks in catechism and therefore I am familiar with the language on here and can be competent in conversation. I would not be competent on a Jewish or Muslim site, e.g. and thus be unfair to the participants. Here at least I experientially know what they are talking about.

So maybe you are not talking about me at all and are just angry in general. I don’t know. But this is a philosophy forum, and it ostensibly invites other views respectfully given. For my part I have had about the same kind and degree of abuse from the Faithful as you seem to claim you and yours get from non Catholics. That’s to be expected; some of these issues are loaded with emotional content as attachments. So it is not a place where only Catholics come together and support each other. I see that there are atheists and others on here with well over 1K posts. The proctors don’t seem to be upset about their presence. So my apology if I stepped on your toes.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Hello Gregg. Nice to meet you. Old time Catholics like myself do worship God:vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060709_valencia_en.html

I worship God too. I was nowhere implying that we do not worship or that worshipping God is bad. I was just using that from a skeptic’s point of view. That is, I wanted to show what worship is outside of all the technicalities. I do the “skeptic’s point of view” quite well considering my stupid brain will not shutup!

As far as Pascal’s Wager I don’t agree with it. B. Sury from the Indian Statistical Institute, Bangalore has written about Pascal. Here is an excerpt from the pdf:

“Pascal wrote the philosophical work Pensées towards the end of his life. This is a collection of his thoughts on human suffering and faith in God which he began in late 1656 and continued to work on during 1657 and 1658. This work contains ‘Pascal’s wager’ which claims to prove that belief in God is rational with the following argument: “Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us consider the two possibilities. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Hesitate not, then, to wager that He is.” In the seventh chapter of Pensées, he tries to apply his probability theory to argue that it is worthwhile to be religious. He argues that, as the value of eternal happiness must be infinite, then, even if the probability of a religious life ensuring eternal happiness be very small, still the expectation (which is measured by the product of the two) must be of sufficient magnitude to make it worthwhile to be religious! Pascal died at the age of 39 in intense pain after a malignant growth in his stomach spread to the brain.”
ias.ac.in/resonance/Jan2004/pdf/Jan2004AIB.pdf

I should have said “my belief” on the Pascal’s Wager instead of “the belief”. That is what I believe the Wager actually does. But, in any case, it does not contradict what he said. I was just taking it further than he did. I am not saying I am right. I was just pointing out my rational conjecture of God’s “seek and you shall find” power.

I do not mean to argue. But, my position is reasonable. What do you not agree with in it?

It appears to me that Pascal began to think of God when he was in physical pain. I wouldn’t consider that to be a logical reason to believe in God. Physical pain can distort a person’s mind.

Agreed

Nice to meet you Mr. Branch!

I look forward to seeing you around on here.

God bless

 

[LogisticsBranch]

I worship God too.

Good.

I should have said “my belief” on the Pascal’s Wager instead of “the belief”. [snip]I do not mean to argue. But, my position is reasonable. What do you not agree with in it?

I made it very clear on page 3 (#370 that I don’t agree with Pascal’s wager. Look again. And look at my contributions to the on-going discussions where I posted to that topic.

Nice to meet you Mr. Branch!

Please don’t insult me by calling me “Mr.Branch” since you know I’ve already mentioned on page 3 that I am a woman.

I did, before you asked. You don’t have to sound imperious about it… I’m happy that you are getting along well with Atheistgirl. Good for you. And I’m happy that you are involved in some fund raising projects. (I think…)

And that post is where I went to the weirdness article from. That article contained a number of flaws ranging from irrelevancies, to mixing apples and oranges, to unwarranted conclusions, etc, etc. Those have been sufficiently addressed ad nauseam elsewhere and I don’t like picking at scabs. If you persist, I will for your sake go through the article and name names, despite the hassle.

Ranklyfrank, I think it fair for me to ask you as I did, “What do you disagree with pertaining the article, “Bible As Dark Biblical “Weirdness” - Atheists Attack God as a monster”
( zenit.org/article-31799?l=english )that was written by Father John Flynn, LC on February 20, 2011 from Rome?” Apparently, I haven’t participated where you have discussed the subject matter in the article. Yes, I do think it would be beneficial for me and other viewers to read what you have to say about the article.

You now ask me, “A kind that is not an atheist/agnostic nor a religionist. Why do you ask?”
You begged the question when you made this comment, “Even as a former Catholic and as a current theist, I find it refutable in several ways. I don’t buy it. [ref. zenit article by Father John Flynn LC]” Would it be fair for me to assume you are either a Deist or Unitarian?

Thanks, I neither read that one nor did I respond to it.But since you ask:

Within Christianity, not all denominations have the same growth rate. Some annual growth rates are:
bullet Pentecostals: 8.1%
bullet Evangelicals: 5.4%;
bullet All Protestants: 3.3%
bullet Roman Catholics and Others: 1.3%

What didn’t you read? The statistics you’ve given implies that you did read the whole artcile I earlier presented Permalink: zenit.org/article-31803?l=english
GLOBAL CATHOLIC POPULATION CONTINUES TO GROW. You can see the entire contents plain and clear in another message on this very page 4. Naturally, I would think you mean that particular article because you are noting above statistical data. Your link to Georgetown does not provide me what you have quoted from the source. Give me a link from Georgetwon that supports your contribution as noted above. The link you have provided me tells me the following:
(The Official Catholic Directory) Catholic population in 2005 was 64.8 million people and in 2010 was 65.6 million people.
Catholic population (self-identified, survey-based) 2005 was 74.0 million and in 2010 was
77.7 million.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I made it very clear on page 3 I don’t agree with Pascal’s wager. Look again.

Oh. I misunderstood. Sorry. The context made it look like you disagreed with my position on it. I disagree with it also, unless it is viewed in the position I made. Then, it is at least plausible from the view of a skeptic. Even if they do not believe in God. It makes it less of an argument and more of an assent.

Please don’t insult me by calling me “Mr.Branch” since you know I’ve already mentioned on the previous page (3) I am a woman.

It was not an insult. I had no clue. I looked over it. Apparently, I make mistakes too. Little did I know.

Well, this was unproductive.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

continuating discussion with Ranklyfrank:

Actually, I do. Since you say “too,” I will assume that you know mine and will leave you to those. And since you have already dismissed it as a bias, that constituting a prejudice, why would I respond to such rudeness? Of course I have my view and understanding. Don’t you? But while yours appears to be heavily third partied, I earned mine. But that is another story. Nevertheless, I respect your 50 years of steadfastness. You surely have learned something from that.

Don’t you remember, this comment you that you made to me , “Thanks, LB. Gandhi was right. Western, or any civilization would be a very good idea. As most of the world is religious, it would appear that religion by itself isn’t up to the task. I say this because while most religion is to a great degree acquired, usually in the hypnotic state of the first seven years, those individuals seem yet to have a kind of egocentricity about morals that purports Divine association bu functionally very often does not. On the other hand, those folks, even atheists in my experience, who do a rigorous and intense self examination come through it with a moral structure that is a function of identity as distinct from an added, like software, belief. That actually might be a good analogy: ordinarily religion is software. Actual morality is hard wired. And it may or may not stem from religious standares, and when it does, it is a coincidental, not actual, relationship.”

You are debasing me because I was raised a Catholic and have not waivered. It’s insulting to me. Don’t you understand. You are talking to an adult woman. You aren’t qualified to psychoanylize people. It is very dangerous to psychoanalize people in cyberspace. Morality is as I’ve presented by scienctific articles is more than often determined by off-line cases. However, criminal activity can be found on-line and used by police and the FBI.

You must follow your conscience in this matter, with my full support. I am not here to put down your religion or anyone else’s, as my comments are almost always aimed at religion as such and not at yours. Moreover, I’m far less interested in any religion, including yours, than in how people think about them, and their level of clarity regarding how religion is acquired and transmitted. I’m on here because up through high school I had very high marks in catechism and therefore I am familiar with the language on here and can be competent in conversation. I would not be competent on a Jewish or Muslim site, e.g. and thus be unfair to the participants. Here at least I experientially know what they are talking about.

Obviously, my religion is the topic of your discussion. My religion isn’t stagnet.

So maybe you are not talking about me at all and are just angry in general.

You’ve just insulted me again! Don’t project your generalities onto me.

I don’t know. But this is a philosophy forum, and it ostensibly invites other views respectfully given. For my part I have had about the same kind and degree of abuse from the Faithful as you seem to claim you and yours get from non Catholics. That’s to be expected; some of these issues are loaded with emotional content as attachments. So it is not a place where only Catholics come together and support each other. I see that there are atheists and others on here with well over 1K posts. The proctors don’t seem to be upset about their presence. So my apology if I stepped on your toes.

Yes, I can forgive you. I have only singled you out because you are the only one besides two [make it 3 now] Catholic men on another topic and this topic that wish to tell me how to think and insinute that I don’t know jack dilly dup, [and insult me]. There is no emotion involved with my comments. I’m speaking as an adult female involved with science and attempting to enjoy my religion too. Like I have said before read through my messages. Once again, little jabs from you don’t cut it with me. Don’t do it again. Like I earlier said, “The ‘Pontifical Academy of Science – which counts more than 40 Nobel prizewinners among its members’ don’t insult the Pope or his followers.” vatican.va/roman_curia/po…00-sym_en.html

 

[Ranklyfrank]

You are debasing me because I was raised a Catholic and have not waivered. It’s insulting to me. Don’t you understand. You are talking to an adult woman. You aren’t qualified to psychoanylize people. It is very dangerous to psychoanalize people in cyberspace. Morality is as I’ve presented by scienctific articles is more than often determined by off-line cases. However, criminal activity can be found on-line and used by police and the FBI.

I recall actually complimenting you on yuor steadfastness. I’m not clear how that constitutes debasement?

Hmmm… also don’t recall plugging your name into any of that. If you are 50, certainly you understand that there are exceptions. May be you are. All I see of you on here is your references strung together as if they are what you think verbatim. As I said, to someone else, if we are talking this way, I’m talking to you, not the Church. Obviously you have studied deeply, or you are good at pulling up articles. That’s a skill,for sure.

But it is not your heart. the very self actualized people I personally know speak extemporaneously about their considerations regarding Deity whether they are saintly religious or ethically atheist. About the last thing, therefore, that impresses me is when someone pulls articles our of their had like a magician doing card tricks.

In my experience, for whatever value it might have, formalized religion is somewhat below the kind of more direct spirituality that comes from deep introspection and self knowledge. If you have that, it would be wonderful of you to share it. If not, then you practice devotionally and with faith, and that is well, good, and commendable. But that is not where some people go with their quest.

My assessments are, as I indicated, aimed at religion as a phenomenon relative to say, psychology, atheism, philosophy, other religions and other Sprititual practices that are perhaps not so commonly known. And I’m not just madly raving here, though I’m thinking that that might be your opinion of me from your standpoint. Fine. Maybe I’m not talking to you. But I am talking from having had a deep commitment to the Church until that was very painfully and distressingly no longer possible for me. After that time I eventually discovered a paradigm that covered all the bases, so to speak, and has been a practical devotion and tool since. In the mean time, though I’ve not done university courses, I’ve researched a lot in comparative religions and philosophies, apparently more that the average person. So I’m not exactly talking through my hat, nor am I talking derisively of anyone. I am comparing ideas and am clear about their value to me.

Obviously, my religion is the topic of your discussion. My religion isn’t stagnet.

Your religion, being a religion, is indeed the topic of discussion on all these threads. And I don’t recall saying anywhere it is stagnant.

You’ve just insulted me again! Don’t project your generalities onto me.

It’s not an insult; its a hypothesis which you are free to answer and you did. Sort of.

Yes, I can forgive you. I have only singled you out because you are the only one besides two [make it 3 now] Catholic men on another topic and this topic that wish to tell me how to think and insinute that I don’t know jack dilly dup, [and insult me]. There is no emotion involved with my comments. I’m speaking as an adult female involved with science and attempting to enjoy my religion too. Like I have said before read through my messages. Once again, little jabs from you don’t cut it with me. Don’t do it again. Like I earlier said, “The ‘Pontifical Academy of Science – which counts more than 40 Nobel prizewinners among its members’ don’t insult the Pope or his followers.” vatican.va/roman_curia/po…00-sym_en.html

Frankly, It is not my business how you think. And I cannot and won’t tell you how to think. Please indicate where, if you believe otherwise, I said in so many words: “LB, now listen to me; these are the thoughts I want you to claim for your own.” I have clearly stated, on the other hand how and what I see. What you do with that is your responsibility, and as I said, a matter of your own conscience. I even said I support you in following your conscience, though it is quite clear that you disagree with me. I have no problem with that, while you seem to have a problem with me following mine.

And while a Nobel Prize is a HUGE honor, as is within the Church the position of Pope, I have to wonder if that cancels out my own experience and ability to reason. Is it your contention that because there are men of great intelligence and accomplishment in the Church that I should abdicate my individuality and God given abilities? That bit of information as such doesn’t even seem to do much good for many Catholics.

And as I reminded you, this is a philosophy forum, and I wonder why you wold expect complacent agreement here? I think there are other forums where that might be more likely.

Thank you for taking the time to make your comments to me.

RF