God does not always seem to fair to me

[Lily_Bernans]

Thank you for explaining more fully. I am in no place to judge or even give advice, but I would say yes, you are doing exactly the right thing with regard to your daughter. You certainly don’t want to run after her and save her from learning valuable lessons she might otherwise not learn. You seem to be like the Prodigal’s father, in a “holding pattern” right now. I greatly hope your daughter will come to know perfect contrition, for your sake and for her own. God bless, and thank you for sharing.

 

[Dorothy]

Dorothy, aren’t you (or weren’t you) a secular Carmelite? If so, that’s where you read it. St. Teresa.

Hi Sirach,

I have been a Lay Carmelite, (O. Carm) since 1975. What a blessing to me!

Greetings in Carmel!

In Our Lady of Mount Carmel,

Dorothy

 

[Horton]

Those who seek Him the most, are the most aware of their human failings. Saints are tested the most. God rejoices over the repentance of a sinner. The thief on the cross. We have anytime to repent over our sinners. Who is blessed more the one who sacrifices a lot in this life to follow Christ or the one who simply repents after living the life he wanted? Honestly, nothing would happen if God did not permit it. How much free-will do we actually have?

I am find myself here on Catholic forums. Sure it is my free-will. Some people have never heard of, let alone care or simply pass by this forum. There is always that element of fate.

What I do not understand also, God is upset at our imperfections and sinful tendencies, honestly we could fix it ourselves if we could.

There are good people who stay up all night praying, worrying about God, but God does not love them anymore than those who intentionally neglect, disdain, ignore, refuse God’s grace.

We are given free-will basically to give our lives back to Christ. Which means?

For some, God will punish immediately for their transgressions, others He allows to continue. It sucks that God allows some people to hurt others.

Those who have much knowledge about God or feel His presence, will still experience human feelings and temptations.

If sins are always a choice, why do we have the inclination? In theory, humans have the ability to completely stop sinning. Why aren’t we that strong then?

There have been some great responses to your question. I’ll attempt to give my two cents on your post. First the idea of “fair” is a human one and we respond to it with human understanding. There are times when bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. At times it seems some people keep getting all the breaks and others just can’t catch one ever. Since I’m a glass half full kinda person I see this as God’s plan for people’s lives. Sorrow & pain are part of living, granted not the best part, but a part. We need to rise above the idea of “fair” and ask God “how do I use this to best serve you”?

Three years ago I was a content independent person living the dream, only a few years from full retirement with full pension. Then I started getting sick a lot. Every couple of weeks it seemed I had a bug of some sort. Several months into this I started to have severe anxiety attacks, this kind that leave you helpless. I saw my doctor who recommended some time off work and medical testing to get to the bottom of things. Fast forward I now am medically retired from my job (never went back to work) with several medical problems including liver disease, lung disease, and severe arthritis. I will never get better and these things will kill me some day. I gave up my home and live with family. But through most of it (I’m no saint) I keep asking God how He want me to use this to best serve Him. Is it fair the retirement I had planned on and worked for didn’t happen? No but God has a better plan and I must be faithful and patient to learn what He wants me to do.

 

[francisca]

Would you please provide a biblical reference to “levels” in Heaven? Thank you.

I believe the concept of “levels” in heaven started with Dante’s Divine Comedy. A great work of literature, one of the very greatest, but not biblical authority.

carm.org/different-levels-of-heaven

The first Heaven apparently refers to the atmospheric area of the birds (Hosea 2:18) and clouds (Dan. 7:13). The second Heaven is the area of the stars and planets (Gen. 1:14-18) and some say is also the abode of all supernatural angelic beings. The third Heaven is the dwelling place of the Triune God. Its location is unrevealed. (See Matt. 23:34-37; Luke 10:20; and Rev. 22:2, 20-27).

Those of us who make it to heaven will all reside on the third level.

Christ is call the “Most High” because he is the High Priest. There is no priest above him, and he is who gives all our ministerial priests their authority.

Hebrew 2:9
but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now CROWNED with GLORY and HONOR

Hierarchical of angelic beings:
archangel Gabriel who serve in Gods presence (Luke1:19)
archangel Michael who LEAD his angels in the battle against the Dragon and his angels (12:7)

Mary was conceived by “the power of THE MOST HIGH” (Luke 1:32)
Evil spirit inside a posessed man recognized Jesus from afar and bow down to him saying “Leave me alone, Jesus, Son of THE MOST HIGH GOD” (Mark 5:7)

 

[francisca]

There have been some great responses to your question. I’ll attempt to give my two cents on your post. First the idea of “fair” is a human one and we respond to it with human understanding. There are times when bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. At times it seems some people keep getting all the breaks and others just can’t catch one ever. Since I’m a glass half full kinda person I see this as God’s plan for people’s lives. Sorrow & pain are part of living, granted not the best part, but a part. We need to rise above the idea of “fair” and ask God “how do I use this to best serve you”?

Three years ago I was a content independent person living the dream, only a few years from full retirement with full pension. Then I started getting sick a lot. Every couple of weeks it seemed I had a bug of some sort. Several months into this I started to have severe anxiety attacks, this kind that leave you helpless. I saw my doctor who recommended some time off work and medical testing to get to the bottom of things. Fast forward I now am medically retired from my job (never went back to work) with several medical problems including liver disease, lung disease, and severe arthritis. I will never get better and these things will kill me some day. I gave up my home and live with family. But through most of it (I’m no saint) I keep asking God how he want me to use this to best serve Him. Is it fair the retirement I had planned on and worked for didn’t happen? No but God has a better plan and I must be faithful and patient to learn what He wants me to do.

Hang on there Horton. Be at peace always! Praise Him continuously for all the little things you receive everyday. Ask Him for healing. Jesus say ask and you shall receive.

Mark 11:22-24
John 3:20-22
Mat 7:8
.

 

[Dorothy]

Cratus,

Recall to mind that our Lord Jesus Christ suffered a horrific death for us. Out of love He offered His life for us.

Our life on earth is how we choose Christ by accepting the things we cannot change, and offering our sufferings in union with Him for the conversion of others. Prayer and the Sacraments enables us to do this. He promises us His peace as we do this.

 

[CRATUS]

Free will. You can change. God does not force you to sin.

I do not know how much free-will I believe. Some people are put in situations where Christ is only the option. Others do not even know. I would not visited the forum. I know plenty who do not and never will. They are not Catholic, not interested in Catholicism, or were never exposed to such a website. As much as we have free-will, I do feel like God sometimes forces people into becoming saints.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hebrew 2:9
but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now CROWNED with GLORY and HONOR

Hierarchical of angelic beings:
archangel Gabriel who serve in Gods presence (Luke1:19)
archangel Michael who LEAD his angels in the battle against the Dragon and his angels (12:7)

Mary was conceived by “the power of THE MOST HIGH” (Luke 1:32)
Evil spirit inside a posessed man recognized Jesus from afar and bow down to him saying “Leave me alone, Jesus, Son of THE MOST HIGH GOD” (Mark 5:7)

An hierarchy is not a level. Jesus and God are, of course, the Most High. However, everyone who ascends to heaven will, it seems from Christ’s words, live in the same place.

Raphael was the third archangel named in the Bible. He probably doesn’t like being left out!

 

[Horton]

I do not know how much free-will I believe. Some people are put in situations where Christ is only the option. Others do not even know. I would not visited the forum. I know plenty who do not and never will. They are not Catholic, not interested in Catholicism, or were never exposed to such a website. As much as we have free-will, I do feel like God sometimes forces people into becoming saints.

Everyone has free will given by God. It’s what many people do with that free will makes it seem there is so much evil in the world.

I trust in a merciful God in that those who are not exposed to faith, to God, will be given an opportunity to come to know & love Him. Maybe that’s part of purgatory. Even though I’m Catholic I don’t believe only Catholics will go to heaven.

Free will is giving us a choice to either grow closer to God or move further away. In my situation I had a choice to be angry, bitter, and shake my fist at God for being so unfair or…I could use my free will to offer my pain & suffering up to Him to use in they way He wants to use it. I will tell you my life is so much better for trusting Him with my sick body. Instead of having to work for a living I get to volunteer for God. I can spend my good time in a volunteer position that seems perfect for my skills and limited physical ability.

CRATUS - We don’t have to know everything. God knows and He will make things clear to us as we need to know them. Trust God, He’s got your back.

 

[Dorothy]

An hierarchy is not a level. Jesus and God are, of course, the Most High. However, everyone who ascends to heaven will, it seems from Christ’s words, live in the same place.

Raphael was the third archangel named in the Bible. He probably doesn’t like being left out!

There is a hierarchy of angels which refers to different levels. It begins with the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Powers, Virtues, Principalities, Archangels, and Angels.

There is the Book of Tobit in the Old Testament and St. Raphael is included in its writings. It reveals a lot about the power of the angels.

I don’t want to hijack this thread - but I can mention that the angels help us much on our spiritual journey, if we ask them.

God is more than fair! He gave us so many treasures for our spiritual journey!

 

[St_Francis]

I do not know how much free-will I believe. Some people are put in situations where Christ is only the option. Others do not even know. I would not visited the forum. I know plenty who do not and never will. They are not Catholic, not interested in Catholicism, or were never exposed to such a website. As much as we have free-will, I do feel like God sometimes forces people into becoming saints.

We have the free will to choose the difficult good or to choose the easy wicked.

However, we Catholics, yes, the laypeople, are supposed to instruct the ignorant–one of the seven spiritual acts of mercy. We are not supposed to be leavinv them alone in their ignorance, we are supposed to take Christ out to them.

 

[CRATUS]

We have the free will to choose the difficult good or to choose the easy wicked.

However, we Catholics, yes, the laypeople, are supposed to instruct the ignorant–one of the seven spiritual acts of mercy. We are not supposed to be leavinv them alone in their ignorance, we are supposed to take Christ out to them.

Ultimately, well, some people suffer more and some less for the sake of God. Some people are drawn to God well because they have nothing. Others do not need God because they are strong and mature.

 

[PolarGuy]

No one “does not need God.”

 

[francisca]

Some people are drawn to God well because they have nothing. Others do not need God because they are strong and mature.

People who do not need God not always strong and mature, neither those who need Him because they have nothing.

Life doesn’t always follow stereotype, neither it seem to fair because we can’t see all eternity, we can’t understand God fully. No one can. And it’s ok.

Don’t worry too much. Be brave and face life happily and optimisticly. Just ask God what you need and live day by day.

Try to be fair to others in your small way, or even better if you can give more to others and not counting…

 

[Horton]

Ultimately, well, some people suffer more and some less for the sake of God

.
Some people suffer more due to the lack of God, some suffer less for the sake 0f God.

Some people are drawn to God well because they have nothing.

People don’t always turn to God because they have nothing, some do, but many turn to God because He is the truth.

Others do not need God because they are strong and mature.

Being strong and mature has nothing to do with needing God.

 

[St_Francis]

Ultimately, well, some people suffer more and some less for the sake of God.

True. But I also know that many times we do not know that much about other people–some people suffer more than we know.

Some people are drawn to God well because they have nothing. Others do not need God because they are strong and mature.

First, this is not true because “having nothing” is not the only way people are drawn to God. Consider St King Louis IX, who had pretty much everything; consider St Queen Elizabeth of Hungary, who had pretty much everything but gave it all up for God.

Second, this is mot true because 1. everyone needs God; some people just don’t realize it yet; and 2. believing that one does not need God is not an indication that they are strong and mature: in fact, it can often be a sign that they feel weak inside and are going along with the crowd.

We often have the wrong impression about people and this is surprising considering how much of ourselves we often hide from people! But we see more of an image they wish to project than we do of what they are really like inside.

But we know ourselves–we know all the awful inside bits. As a result, we often compare our totalities to the carefully crafted images of others.

Even Richard Dawkins, that strutting atheist who makes so much from running theists down, has no answer for the emergence of life on earth other than… it started as a result of people coming from other planets. He begs the question and destroys his own argument in one sentence!