God doesn’t barter for good behavior but loves unconditionally, pope says

[JimG]

Actually, Pope Francis is addressing the attitude of many Catholics.

Through my 65 years as a Catholic, we were taught about the God who rewards and punishes and how we have to appease him with various acts of religious piety in order to avoid Him sending us into an eternity of torture. Many still hold this attitude and never feel forgiven or God’s mercy. Visit the Spirituality Forum if you doubt me.

Jim

Perhaps Matthew 25:31-46 had something to do with it–the parable of the last judgment, where Jesus makes our eternal destiny dependent on what we did or did not do.

 

[mikekle]

It’s true that God loves us unconditionally, but salvation does have conditions.

Like the prodigal son, we remain dead until we turn to the father. Until we return and confess our sins, we have no life. Once we do, the Father will restore our life. If we refuse to do so, we will be left dead.

And Jesus DOES command us to obey His commands. He expects obedience and good behavior. And He DOES reward us, as He promises to give until overflowing.

It’s a fine line to walk.

But is it right to punish someone for simply exercising their free will? The downside to true free will is, there will always be a certain number of people who do not choose to be ‘with’ the creator or have a relationship with him, and as long as they do not infringe on others free will or cause harm to anyone, that is perfectly fine and their right to choose.

Telling someone they have free will, but then telling them if they make the ‘wrong’ choice when it comes to recognizing or loving/having faith in, God, thats not much of a choice and not really true free will imo.

 

[TCEL]

Perhaps Matthew 25:31-46 had something to do with it–the parable of the last judgment, where Jesus makes our eternal destiny dependent on what we did or did not do.

Yes, and I personally feel comfortable assuming that Pope Francis would encourage us to render service to the poor, as a responsibility. Everything he says must be looked at as a whole. I think that’s a wise approach, regardless of who is speaking.

 

[TCEL]

But is it right to punish someone for simply exercising their free will? The downside to true free will is, there will always be a certain number of people who do not choose to be ‘with’ the creator or have a relationship with him, and as long as they do not infringe on others free will or cause harm to anyone, that is perfectly fine and their right to choose.

Telling someone they have free will, but then telling them if they make the ‘wrong’ choice when it comes to recognizing or loving/having faith in, God, thats not much of a choice and not really true free will imo.

Makes one tremble, doesn’t it? We can say “no” to God Almighty. That reality was the beginning of my deeper conversion.

 

[zz912]

But is it right to punish someone for simply exercising their free will? The downside to true free will is, there will always be a certain number of people who do not choose to be ‘with’ the creator or have a relationship with him, and as long as they do not infringe on others free will or cause harm to anyone, that is perfectly fine and their right to choose.

Telling someone they have free will, but then telling them if they make the ‘wrong’ choice when it comes to recognizing or loving/having faith in, God, thats not much of a choice and not really true free will imo.

Of course we have free will. That doesn’t mean we are free of the consequences of our choices. You can choose to step in front of a moving bus. The consequence of that is getting severely hurt or killed. You still had the choice to do it or not.

We have the choice to choose or reject God. Rejecting God means severing ourselves from He who created us, and who sustains us. It’s like a muscle severing itself from the arteries and expecting no consequence. Without the life-giving sustenance of God, we die. We are free to choose life or death. Many choose death. Some choose life. We all have a choice. And there are consequences to that choice. (and consequences to a choice doesn’t mean we didn’t have a choice)

 

[Randolph]

Of course we have free will. That doesn’t mean we are free of the consequences of our choices. You can choose to step in front of a moving bus. The consequence of that is getting severely hurt or killed. You still had the choice to do it or not.

We have the choice to choose or reject God. Rejecting God means severing ourselves from He who created us, and who sustains us. It’s like a muscle severing itself from the arteries and expecting no consequence. Without the life-giving sustenance of God, we die. We are free to choose life or death. Many choose death. Some choose life. We all have a choice. And there are consequences to that choice. (and consequences to a choice doesn’t mean we didn’t have a choice)

Thank you for your stating your point about free will so well.

I read the article and I believe Pope Francis is absolutely correct about mercy and love. My problem is with people who are too eager to spin his message to fit their personal agenda. Hell is real. Jesus spoke about it. God did condemn Satan to hell. The consequence of rejecting God is hell. For those that send/condemn themselves to hell do so on their own free will. Going to hell is God’s punishment because it is a place without God.

 

[mikekle]

Thank you for your stating your point about free will so well.

I read the article and I believe Pope Francis is absolutely correct about mercy and love. My problem is with people who are too eager to spin his message to fit their personal agenda. Hell is real. Jesus spoke about it. God did condemn Satan to hell. The consequence of rejecting God is hell. For those that send/condemn themselves to hell do so on their own free will. Going to hell is God’s punishment because it is a place without God.

Why should there be a punishment for rejecting God…as long as someone does not harm another person or infringe upon their free will, that is their choice to make.

If they choose to be neutral, then neutrality should be the consequence, not hell, suffering and punishment.

 

[Randolph]

Why should there be a punishment for rejecting God…as long as someone does not harm another person or infringe upon their free will, that is their choice to make.

If they choose to be neutral, then neutrality should be the consequence, not hell, suffering and punishment.

The Church teaches, upon death, all souls are judged by God to go to heaven (with God) usually via purgatory, or go to hell (with Satan). For eternity, being in hell with Satan is punishment. On the other hand, being with God in heaven is reward. There is a theological speculation about limbo. I don’t know much about it other than it is a temporary place where souls are judged go and where souls of unbaptized children go. But it is just a speculation.

The Church teaches no one merits heaven on their own accord. All souls need God’s mercy and love to be allowed to go to heaven.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The Church teaches, upon death, all souls are judged by God to go to heaven (with God) usually via purgatory, or go to hell (with Satan). For eternity, being in hell with Satan is punishment. On the other hand, being with God in heaven is reward. There is a theological speculation about limbo. I don’t know much about it other than it is a temporary place where souls are judged go and where souls of unbaptized children go. But it is just a speculation.

The Church teaches no one merits heaven on their own accord. All souls need God’s mercy and love to be allowed to go to heaven.

So how does that understanding fit in to what the Pope just preached? If God does not love us via a quid pro quo system but rather constantly and without conditions, then it seems to me that the judgement based on reward/punishment is a bit off. How do the two systems fit together?

 

[Randolph]

Why should there be a punishment for rejecting God…as long as someone does not harm another person or infringe upon their free will, that is their choice to make.

If they choose to be neutral, then neutrality should be the consequence, not hell, suffering and punishment.

The following is my humble opinion/understanding regarding the state of souls upon death. If I am wrong, please correct me, and most importantly, may God forgive me.

1. People, upon their free will, who love Christ and totally embraced Him and His Church throughout their lives, or people somehow in the end reconciled themselves with God. They yearn for their souls to be eternally with God. Upon death, I pray that God in His infinite mercy and love will allow these souls to be with Him in Heaven. It is the ultimate reward for souls to be in heaven with God for eternity.
2. People, upon their free will, with their doubts and fears, sincerely seeked God and His Church, but somehow just couldn’t get there prior to their death. I pray that God in His infinite love and mercy allows them into heaven.
3. People, whether they have access to, or are aware of, their own free will, never had a chance to hear or know God. Upon their death, I pray that God would grant them mercy and allows them into heaven.
4. People, upon their free will, who know Christ and still flat out reject Him in all things even at the time of death. Unless God forces these souls into heaven against their free will, I find it hard that their souls would be in heaven. Hell therefore would be a logical place for these souls. Hell is a punishment because it is a place without God. No one condemns them to hell. They send themselves there.

As for people with free will choosing to remain “neutral”, I am not aware of any eternal place designated for these souls. Nor do think the gospel nor the Church say anything about it. Only God knows where souls will eventually end up.

 

[Randolph]

So how does that understanding fit in to what the Pope just preached? If God does not love us via a quid pro quo system but rather constantly and without conditions, then it seems to me that the judgement based on reward/punishment is a bit off. How do the two systems fit together?

It has to do with our false sense of expectation and entitlement from God.

God is the maker of heaven and earth. As a consequence of original sin committed by Adam and Eve, we, their children, are spiritually broken. We need Christ, the Church and its sacraments to heal our wounds. We are sinners and need God mercy, forgiveness and love to be whole with Him. These are divine gifts given only from God.

The Church, in obedience to Christ, has always taught faith and work are inseparatable. Along with having faith, doing good work instructed/commanded by God is necessary and is pleasing to Him. The Church teaches the faithful to do good work out of our love for God and out of our desire to bring God’s love to the world. I believe that when people do good work, be it big or small, God does take notice, and it means something good. I also believe God remembers and takes it into account along with everything else He chooses on judgement day. But it does not mean that God owes us anything. Or we somehow have just built equity/credit with God where we will eventually demand to cash in later. Rather, when we do good work, it’s more like we are cultivating a beautiful garden where God can take pleasure. God loves us endlessly, but He does not owe us.

Pope Francis reminded us of a trap we could get ourselves into when we do good things or follow the rules, and lost sight of the importance of charity and mercy as in the case of the older rule-abiding brother in the parable of the prodigal son.

Ultimately, God’s will and judgement belong to God. We pray for God’s will be done, not ours.

 

[TCEL]

We love recalcitrant children, but one cannot force them to accept that love.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Why should there be a punishment for rejecting God…as long as someone does not harm another person or infringe upon their free will, that is their choice to make.

If they choose to be neutral, then neutrality should be the consequence, not hell, suffering and punishment.

Its not punishment by God, but the consequence of rejecting God.

Sin brings consequences, because it separates us from God, who is good.

It isn’t God who separates himself from us, but the evil of sin which separates us from Him.

Jim

 

[irishpatrick]

It seems to me, again, that the Pope is trying to draw as many souls as possible onto the safety of the Ark. Couple that with his declared Jubilee Year of Mercy, and then connect the dots. The Pope is reaching out to as many souls as possible with an attractive message of love and mercy in order to entice more people to come onto that Ark. This is no accident, it is no misstep by the Pope–imo, it is a work of the Holy Spirit during the most unique time in Christian history.

BTW, we all know loving someone unconditionally does not equate to approving of bad deeds. One can love their child and still speak to that child about their sins. In fact, it is an act of love when a parent cares enough to point out their child’s sins.

Yet, I truly believe the Pope has been close to ceaseless regarding his message of Mercy from God and I believe there is no mistake in timing with that.

 

[TCEL]

It seems to me, again, that the Pope is trying to draw as many souls as possible onto the safety of the Ark. Couple that with his declared Jubilee Year of Mercy, and then connect the dots. The Pope is reaching out to as many souls as possible with an attractive message of love and mercy in order to entice more people to come onto that Ark. This is no accident, it is no misstep by the Pope–imo, it is a work of the Holy Spirit during the most unique time in Christian history.

BTW, we all know loving someone unconditionally does not equate to approving of bad deeds. One can love their child and still speak to that child about their sins. In fact, it is an act of love when a parent cares enough to point out their child’s sins.

Yet, I truly believe the Pope has been close to ceaseless regarding his message of Mercy from God and I believe there is no mistake in timing with that.

It is amazing. I’ve been watching a documentary about Divine Mercy, but the episodes come out every week. It is all very providential. God wants his message of Divine Mercy spread. (And, how can one experience Divine Mercy without confronting our sinfulness? Pope Francis, in “The Name of God is Love,” says the knowledge of one’s sinfulness is a grace, a blessing, to ask from God. But this is very delicate territory to traverse, because each soul is so unique.)

 

[irishpatrick]

This is not what Pope John Paul II taught.

He said that God doesn’t send anyone to hell, rather, they go there on their own because they have rejected God.

The reward and punishment God, contradicts a God who loves us unconditionally.

Jim

I believe God does love us unconditionally. However, because of that love, He gives us freedom to reject Him, and that is where the consequences, lie. The Pope speaks so well about the prodigal son and the actions of the father and older brother, yet the Pope does not speak of what would have happened if the younger son had remained away from the father–that too is quite important.

Had the younger son remained away, he would have suffered the consequences of his own rejection of his father’s love and everything that comes from that love. We must return to the father to experience that love.

To that end, we must remember that sin separates us from God just as the prodigal son separated himself from his father when he left. Every time we commit mortal sin, and refuse to repent and confess, we are acting as mini-prodigal sons and daughters. If we refuse to turn back to God in true repentance by confessing our sins, we are in fact rejecting God’s love for us. An unrepentant soul becomes a prodigal son and the father (God) never stops waiting for us to turn back to Him.

 

[irishpatrick]

It seems to me, again, that the Pope is trying to draw as many souls as possible onto the safety of the Ark. Couple that with his declared Jubilee Year of Mercy, and then connect the dots. The Pope is reaching out to as many souls as possible with an attractive message of love and mercy in order to entice more people to come onto that Ark. This is no accident, it is no misstep by the Pope–imo, it is a work of the Holy Spirit during the most unique time in Christian history.

BTW, we all know loving someone unconditionally does not equate to approving of bad deeds. One can love their child and still speak to that child about their sins. In fact, it is an act of love when a parent cares enough to point out their child’s sins.

Yet, I truly believe the Pope has been close to ceaseless regarding his message of Mercy from God and I believe there is no mistake in timing with that.

 

[irishpatrick]

It is amazing. I’ve been watching a documentary about Divine Mercy, but the episodes come out every week. It is all very providential. God wants his message of Divine Mercy spread. (And, how can one experience Divine Mercy without confronting our sinfulness? Pope Francis, in “The Name of God is Love,” says the knowledge of one’s sinfulness is a grace, a blessing, to ask from God. But this is very delicate territory to traverse, because each soul is so unique.)

Yes, and I feel it is providential that the Pope has declared the year of mercy at this most unique time in Christian history. Is it just that we are such a mess that we must have God’s mercy, or is it possible that the day of Mercy is coming to an end? There is no way for us to know. But Saint Faustina continues to come to mind–