God doesn't speak Latin

[the_phoenix]

Pilate first speaks to Christ in Aramaic, and suprised by the Latin repsonse.

The OP states that Christ responds to Pilate in Latin?

Yes, moderators, please close down this thread.

Christ is God, God responded to Pilate in Latin. Case closed.

As my participation is no longer needed here, I will now exit this thread.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Walking_Home]

Moderators–please close this thread.

 

[Ahimsa]

I think Isa isn’t Orthdox. I think he’s a Muslim troll. Isa is the name of Jesus used by Muslims. If he were Christian, he would be named Yasu! (the arabic form which Christians use)

“Isa” might refer to “Esau”.

In any event, Isa is Orthodox, for sure. Just go to the “Eastern Christianity” forum, in order to alleviate any anxieties over this issue.

 

[Dauphin]

Isa is Orthodox, for sure. Just go to the “Eastern Christianity” forum, in order to alleviate any anxieties over this issue.

Just a little joke I was doing a little baiting of my own, but then I realized that he had left

 

[patrick457]

Now, I saw a nun on EWTN say that "Latin is the love language of God speaking to His beloved the Church. We are just getting in on the conversation."

I think you’re reading too much into the quote.

The Father doesn’t speak Latin.

Sure He doesn’t but that does not preclude that He knows Latin; after all, He is the Creator of the people who will later develop the Latin language! To say that God knows not Latin would be to limit His omnipotence.

We don’t even know what language they speak in Heaven.

The Son on earth didn’t speak Latin.

In His humanity, Jesus might have known a few Latin words due to Roman Rule; but in His Divinity, He is the same as the Father.

His mother didn’t speak Latin.

Does that mean that when we pray in Latin, Our Lady in Heaven go in panic and grab the nearest Latin Dictionary she could find to search the meaning of the prayer?

None of His disciples spoke Latin.

Ditto for above.

When the Holy Spirit came down, Latin was only one of the languages He spoke through the Apostles.

Uh-huh, but so?

We’ll skip a few here since the answer to them would be ‘Ditto the above’.

In the martyrdom of Perpetua, she speaks Latin, but those in heaven speak Greek.

That explains why those in Heaven could not understand Latin; they speak Greek! What a revelation! I guess we should start praying in Greek now. Pater hemon o en tois ouranois…

Only after Romulus’ title of pontifex maximus was passed on from the Roman emperor to the Pope of Rome, did Rome get its Latin mass and Latin translation of the scriptures (under Damasus).

So, is Greek the Divine tongue or Latin the Devil’s language?

God spoke to the prophets in Hebrew, and inspired their translators in Greek. God made man spoke Aramaic (and maybe in His childhood Coptic), and his Chruch spoke Greek. At the Ecumenical Councils the 72 nations agreed on Greek texts.

But that doesn’t mean He could make the language of His Church Latin, notwithstanding that in its infancy it spoke Aramaic or Greek. I might as well make an argument that God doesn’t speak Greek or Coptic or Spanish or English or whatnot.

This thread had been mercilessly lengthened. Please close this.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

“Isa” might refer to “Esau”.

In any event, Isa is Orthodox, for sure. Just go to the “Eastern Christianity” forum, in order to alleviate any anxieties over this issue.

Thanks for the defense. I just got back from Vespers.

I hope I’m as Orthodox as you honor me.

No, my parents wouldn’t use Yasu. Thats only for Jesus God. My mother’s not a Virgin, and I’m not that sinless, though at times I do act/think as if I were God.

Isa is what we use to name your kid after Jesus. So there’s the honor, yet the proper distance. The muslims got the name from us, among a few other things.

Actually I’ve wanted to change the posting handle to Egyptian Jesus (Almisry means the Egyptian/Cairene).

And just to further ??? (I’ve gotten PMs).

I was baptized Evangelical Lutheran, and went to a Latin high school. Many at my school used to say the Hail Mary just to taunt my non-Latin status. They would probably drop dead if they knew now that I say the Angelus.

Many might faint here to know I say it in Latin.

Btw I also teach the sons Latin. But then, their mother is Romanian.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You hear that, Isa? We’re rebelling against you! I hereby boycott this thread. If I were one of those sedevacantist Antipopes, I’d anathematize it too!!!

An antipope did. 1054.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I’m ginving him the benefit of the doubt. I think he has been reasonable and pleasant which is more than some. Call it…a friendly debate.
There are much less friendly debates going on elsewhere.
I think what he has highlighted though is that each of us bring our own perspective. We are all different and the CAF would be terribly boring if we weren’t.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Quote= isa Almisry
No, just stating He has shown no such preference for it.​

And you place yourself in the position to speak for God on His preferences. Has He revealed this and given you authority to do so.

Again, I haven’t said He has no preference for it (though I doubt it). Just I ask why some are so sure He has.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I think you’re all nuts.

Everybody knows that Jesus is a blue-eyed blonde with fair skin and speaks English with a British accent.

Then the chalice would have had tea.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hey, I’m glad somebody sees sense but I have to add that it is a Scots accent not a British one. And he speaks broad Glaswegian! Even the 10 commandments were in Scots!

**“Ye maunna covet yer neibour’s hoose; ye maunna covet yer neibour’s wife, nor his sairvant chiel, nor his sairvant lass, nor his ox, nor his *, nor onything that is yer neibour’s.”

England forever!

Scotland a wee bit longer!

Btw the way the men of the parish have an annual St. Andrew day get together (many are Scotts). Brought back a load of ancient prayers from there. I particularly liked one addressed to “the Lord of Sunday.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The OP states that Christ responds to Pilate in Latin?

Yes, moderators, please close down this thread.

Christ is God, God responded to Pilate in Latin. Case closed.

As my participation is no longer needed here, I will now exit this thread.

~~ the phoenix

Yes. He does.

My second language for my PhD was Syriac. I’ve studied Aramaic.

I know enough Latin.

And enough Hebrew.

And the reference I thought was clear in the OP was to the Passion of the Christ (the movie, I saw it at least a dozen times in the theater, and own the DVD).

So I can go without subtitles

When the Virgin is first shown, when Christ is arrested, she and Mary Magdalene quote the Haggadah in Hebrew, which I assume why the subtitles are in quotation marks.

The soldiers speak Latin amongst themselves, and it sounds like that spoken in the Balkans, which would be historically acurate.

Pilate’s wife Claudia speaks the best Latin. Pilate less so. (btw. the High Priest is a great actor, but his Aramaic is atrocious).

In the scene when Christ is brought before Pilate in his private chamber Pilate first speaks to Him in Aramaic. (I think he says "have something to drink or some such thing). When Christ responds to him, he speaks Latin, which, if you look at Pilate, his slave and the commander they all have astonished looks on the faces, which I took as from the fact Christ was answering in Latin.

And when the soldier, after St. Simon refuses to take the Cross unless they stop beatin Christ, calls him a Jew, he says it in Latin (I don’t recall if the sentence before was in Latin or Aramaic).

If I am wrong in any of the above, I would like to see/hear proof.

However, although the portrayal of the soldiers speech etc, (this came up because of Cornelius and the centurion, and the question if they would speak Latin to Christ or Peter) might be accurate, I don’t know about Pilate.

 

[Eschato]

Why does it have any use in Liturgy? If you don’t say at coffee hour “Coffea Arabica cum lactem saccharemque”, you shouldn’t be saying Pater Noster either.

It is sanctified because the congregation doesn’t understand it? How is, for instance, English, not so sanctified? The masses said in it don’t have that effect?

I’m not so sure the nun was aware of it.

Man, there’s plenty of people who either can’t understand mass in English. Do you suggest that they show up with dictionaries and grammar texts to follow along?

I’ve been to one Tridentine Mass and I felt that so much more was there. It was like a treasure trove of worship. It was awesome. Everything about it was so sacred. Let them have it if they want it.

I don’t drink coffee…

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Now, I saw a nun on EWTN say that "Latin is the love language of God speaking to His beloved the Church. We are just getting in on the conversation."

I think you’re reading too much into the quote.

The Father doesn’t speak Latin.

Sure He doesn’t but that does not preclude that He knows Latin; after all, He is the Creator of the people who will later develop the Latin language! To say that God knows not Latin would be to limit His omnipotence.

We don’t even know what language they speak in Heaven.

The Son on earth didn’t speak Latin.

In His humanity, Jesus might have known a few Latin words due to Roman Rule; but in His Divinity, He is the same as the Father.

His mother didn’t speak Latin.

Does that mean that when we pray in Latin, Our Lady in Heaven go in panic and grab the nearest Latin Dictionary she could find to search the meaning of the prayer?

None of His disciples spoke Latin.

Ditto for above.

When the Holy Spirit came down, Latin was only one of the languages He spoke through the Apostles.

Uh-huh, but so?

We’ll skip a few here since the answer to them would be ‘Ditto the above’.

In the martyrdom of Perpetua, she speaks Latin, but those in heaven speak Greek.

That explains why those in Heaven could not understand Latin; they speak Greek! What a revelation! I guess we should start praying in Greek now. Pater hemon o en tois ouranois…

Actually, noticing your sig, I’d personally prefer the Chaldean.

Only after Romulus’ title of pontifex maximus was passed on from the Roman emperor to the Pope of Rome, did Rome get its Latin mass and Latin translation of the scriptures (under Damasus).

So, is Greek the Divine tongue or Latin the Devil’s language?

I think the Devil was quoted in Greek in the Gospel, though he might have spoken Aramaic at the time. Actually I have not idea, but I doubt it was Latin.

God spoke to the prophets in Hebrew, and inspired their translators in Greek. God made man spoke Aramaic (and maybe in His childhood Coptic), and his Chruch spoke Greek. At the Ecumenical Councils the 72 nations agreed on Greek texts.

But that doesn’t mean He could make the language of His Church Latin, notwithstanding that in its infancy it spoke Aramaic or Greek. I might as well make an argument that God doesn’t speak Greek or Coptic or Spanish or English or whatnot.

No one claims a special status with the Almighty for English, Spanish or Coptic (though Christ might have spoken it).

Greek is another story, and I have spared with Greeks on this. (you can also look on the filioque in the Easter Forum, where this became a topic).

Could He make Latin the language of His Church? Sure. Did He?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Man, there’s plenty of people who either can’t understand mass in English. Do you suggest that they show up with dictionaries and grammar texts to follow along?

I’ve been to one Tridentine Mass and I felt that so much more was there. It was like a treasure trove of worship. It was awesome. Everything about it was so sacred. Let them have it if they want it.

I don’t drink coffee…

Bebis camelliam sinensem?

I just used English as an example because we are posting in it (not Latin, btw). If they don’t speak English then put your language in here.

Funny, somehow people showing up with the Latin dictionaries and grammars doesn’t bother you at all.

What did Latin contribute to what you describe? The vestments, incense, etc. is the same in English or Latin.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

---

Well JKirkLVNV—VatII–SC and the Popes themselves in a way do give us an idea of God’s Active Will. SC says Latin is to be retain as do the Popes. This would imply God’s Active Will. Now the incorporation of the vernacular to the extent that it has—that is more of God’s Permissive Will.

There is NO way you can prove that this side of Heaven, because it’s NOT a matter of dogma or doctrine. The use of Latin may well simply be God’s permissive Will. I would never argue that the use of the vernacular is any more than that. I personally don’t think God CARES.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Well JKirkLVNV—VatII–SC and the Popes themselves in a way do give us an idea of God’s Active Will. SC says Latin is to be retain as do the Popes. This would imply God’s Active Will. Now the incorporation of the vernacular to the extent that it has—that is more of God’s Permissive Will.

There is NO way you can prove that this side of Heaven, because it’s NOT a matter of dogma or doctrine. The use of Latin may well simply be God’s permissive Will. I would never argue that the use of the vernacular is any more than that. I personally don’t think God CARES.

---

We have already asked for this thread to be closed----but YOU can not prove that it isn’t. It actually makes sense considering the longevity of Latin --Vat II declaring it to be retained --plus the Popes themselves speaking on retaining the language.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

But He’s God… that makes him omniscient. Therefore, he spoke absolutely everything. He spoke languages that haven’t even been invented yet!

Exactly.

“867 While in Venice, Cyril and Methodius encountered a group of clerics who insisted the divine office could be celebrated in only three languages: Hebrew, Greek and Latin. In the autumn, Cyril and Methodius arrived in Rome, at the invitation of the pope. They presented Pope Hadrian II (867-72) with the relics of St. Clement, which they had acquired during their embassy to the Khazars (860/1). Hadrian placed them in the church of St. Clemente. Cyril and Methodius asked Hadrian’s permission to use a Slavonic liturgy. The pope, in a special bull, approved this request. He also ordained the Moravian and Pannonian priests whom the brothers had trained. Hadrian also planned to appoint a bishop for the Slavs who would be independent of German (Salzburg and Passau) influence. It is likely that he initially had Cyril in view for this post”.

geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/chron9.htm

AND

“It was a popular idea then, that as there had been three languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, inscribed over our Lord on the cross, it would be sacrilegious to use any other language in the service of the Church. St.Methodius appealed to the pope and in 879 he was again summoned to Rome, before John VIII, who after hearing the matter sanctioned the use of the Slavonic language in the Mass and the offices of the Church, saying among other things:
We rightly praise the Slavonic letters invented by Cyril in which praises to God are set forth, and we order that the glories and deeds of Christ our Lord be told in that same language. Nor is it in anywise opposed to wholesome doctrine and faith to say Mass in that same Slavonic language (Nec sanæ fidei vel doctrinæ aliquid obstat missam in eadem slavonica lingua canere), or to chant the holy gospels or divine lessons from the Old and New Testaments duly translated and interpreted therein, or the other parts of the divine office: for He who created the three principal languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, ***also made the others for His praise and ***glory (Boczek, Codex, tom. I, pp. 43-44).” (emphasis mine).

newadvent.org/cathen/14041b.htm

 

[JKirkLVNV]

---

We have already asked for this thread to be closed----but YOU can not prove that it isn’t. It actually makes sense considering the longevity of Latin --Vat II declaring it to be retained --plus the Popes themselves speaking on retaining the language.

Poor Walking Home, did you not see where I SAID I couldn’t. Honestly! See the reference and precendent in my previous post of Pope Adrian II.

 

[dessert]

I think the Latin we heard in the mass the 14th is a very classical language. Like the difference between the classical music styles of artists. The chanting brings out every vowel sound where other languages will steal from latin two letters together or drop a vowel or not say the ending of some consonants as english does with our silent endings.

It was a real classical mass and I felt I was at an opera listening to a beaautiful story of a life (and if you miss a word or phrase don’t worry it will be repeated , that is the nice ity of the story or you feel you can sing along but it is too beautiful for my normal voice.) which is of course the greatest story, the cellebration of the Holy Mass.

We hear this more at chrismas ( the difference music in latin etc.) if and when I can get to a well done performance of the Messiah. There again the language you don’t need to know it if you know the story already and how it will end.