God doesn't speak Latin

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home
We have already asked for this thread to be closed----but YOU can not prove that it isn’t. It actually makes sense considering the longevity of Latin --Vat II declaring it to be retained --plus the Popes themselves speaking on retaining the language.

Poor Walking Home, did you not see where I SAID I couldn’t. Honestly! See the reference and precendent in my previous post of Pope Adrian II.

Quote=JKirkLVNV
There is NO way you can prove that this side of Heaven, because it’s NOT a matter of dogma or doctrine. The use of Latin may well simply be God’s permissive Will. I would never argue that the use of the vernacular is any more than that. I personally don’t think God CARES./​

Really JKirkLVNV—what is stated in your response to me is you–meaning me (I in no way can prove). So I responded with—You not being able to prove it isn’t. The return of Latin could more likely be God’s Active Will–with the councils and Popes as evidence.

When you brought the “I” in (meaning you) was when you would not argue that the use of vernacular is any more than that --God’s permissive Will----which by the way —it seems I would agree.

 

[Bishopite]

I didn’t want to post this until the Traditional Latin mass followers had their day. Since by now September 14 has come and gone, I’ll post now.

First, I don’t have anything against the Tridentine mass. Our Western Rite Orthodox use the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory, which is basically the same, and I am fine with that (though I’m Arab and Eastern Rite).

I don’t have anything against Latin, or any liturgical language, per se, except when its appeal is smells and bells. It has to go farther.

Now, I saw a nun on EWTN say that “Latin is the love language of God speaking to His beloved the Church. We are just getting in on the conversation.”

A lovely thought, but also a silly one.

The Father doesn’t speak Latin.

The Son on earth didn’t speak Latin.

His mother didn’t speak Latin.

None of His disciples spoke Latin.

When the Holy Spirit came down, Latin was only one of the languages He spoke through the Apostles.

He did not speak through the writers of Scripture in Latin.

He did not speak through the Fathers of the Seven Ecumenical Councils in Latin.

He did not set the Creed in Latin.

When the Church moved on to Rome, she did not speak Latin.

All the early Popes of Rome up to Victor (end 2nd century) did not speak Latin.

The Divine Liturgy/Mass up until Victor was not in Latin. (hence the Kyrie eleison).

In the martyrdom of Perpetua, she speaks Latin, but those in heaven speak Greek.

Only after Romulus’ title of pontifex maximus was passed on from the Roman emperor to the Pope of Rome, did Rome get its Latin mass and Latin translation of the scriptures (under Damasus).

God spoke to the prophets in Hebrew, and inspired their translators in Greek. God made man spoke Aramaic (and maybe in His childhood Coptic), and his Chruch spoke Greek. At the Ecumenical Councils the 72 nations agreed on Greek texts.

So the idea of Latin being God’s love language is a novelty.

Latin is a universal language within the Catholic Church which allows its hiearchy and members to better communicate by using one language. And although our current Pope Benedict XVI knows German, Italian, French, English, Spanish and Latin, and has a knowledge of Portuguese, he can read Ancient Greek and biblical Hebrew.
He as the majordomo, nor any of the other Bishops can learn everyone elses language, so a common language suffices.
Our former Pope John Paul ll knew seven or eight languages also.
Perhaps the “love” attributed to Latin is because all of the “Romance” languages (Romanian, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese) come from Latin. Perhaps you’ve not understood the context?

Oh, and before I forget…

christi simus non nostri

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Quote=JKirkLVNV
There is NO way you can prove that this side of Heaven, because it’s NOT a matter of dogma or doctrine. The use of Latin may well simply be God’s permissive Will. I would never argue that the use of the vernacular is any more than that. I personally don’t think God CARES./​

Really JKirkLVNV—what is stated in your response to me is you–meaning me (I in no way can prove). So I responded with—You not being able to prove it isn’t. The return of Latin could more likely be God’s Active Will–with the councils and Popes as evidence.

When you brought the “I” in (meaning you) was when you would not argue that the use of vernacular is any more than that --God’s permissive Will----which by the way —it seems I would agree.

OR it could be that FINALLY God’s active will, first articulated by Pope Adrian II (also a Vicar of Christ) at the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius, is being realized by the Church’s use of the vernacular (remember the “also made the others for His praise and glory?”). But I would NEVER argue that (as I said) because I’ve no way of proving it, because it isn’t a matter of doctrine or dogma, and there is, by infallible decree of the Church, no more public revelation.

 

[Walking_Home]

OR it could be that FINALLY God’s active will, first articulated by Pope Adrian II (also a Vicar of Christ) at the time of Saints Cyril and Methodius, is being realized by the Church’s use of the vernacular (remember the “also made the others for His praise and glory?”). But I would NEVER argue that (as I said) because I’ve no way of proving it, because it isn’t a matter of doctrine or dogma, and there is, by infallible decree of the Church, no more public revelation.

---

Well —it just makes more sense that it is the Active Will of God re-incorporating Latin back. After all --the Councils since Trent have retained the language–plus the post Vat II Popes–or would you say God is not actively motivating Pope Benedict.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

---

Well —it just makes more sense that it is the Active Will of God re-incorporating Latin back. After all --the Councils since Trent have retained the language–plus the post Vat II Popes–or would you say God is not actively motivating Pope Benedict.

I firmly believe that God is leading Pope Benedict XVI (who has said that there is value in the vernacular Mass, who has mentioned the faithful learning their Latin responses in the context of discussing international offerings of the Mass, etc.).
I do not believe that the use of Latin involves God’s active will, I believe it involves His passive will (passive will isn’t a negative, you know).

 

[Walking_Home]

I firmly believe that God is leading Pope Benedict XVI (who has said that there is value in the vernacular Mass, who has mentioned the faithful learning their Latin responses in the context of discussing international offerings of the Mass, etc.).
I do not believe that the use of Latin involves God’s active will, I believe it involves His passive will (passive will isn’t a negative, you know).

---

Good–we both agree—now it was Pope Benedict who did say when he spoke in Brazil—that the Vat II norms should be correctly applied. We both know what the Vat II norms entail. It does not seem feasible that Pope Benedict would do what was done to the Church in the late 60’s—so change may well be slow. In our current time—we are only experiencing the beginning. By this I do not mean the vernacular NO Mass will be completely replaced–but I wouldn’t be surprised if a bit more Latin be incorporated into it.

Now you and I could go on back and forth (we’ve done it before) but I will no longer give the satisfaction to the originator of this thread to see us in this situation. So I bid you farewell in this thread.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

A correction: the decree for Cyril and Methodius was made by Pope John VIII, Pope Adrian’s successor.

 

[HenryV]

stmaria;2724777:

Sorry, I don’t think this is ex cathedra, so even according to your beliefs the pope of Rome can’t claim any special guidance.

Just the first point expresses a Occidentocentric view of the world at odds with the facts of the early history of the Chruch.

The East has never had any use for Latin. The West has had a need for Greek (a fact also mentioned I believe by the pope of Rome). My original OP points out that even in Rome, Latin did not fulfill the role you are quoting until Damasus, and did not even start until Victor.

This is the Holy Father speaking and his teaching should be valued by all Catholics even if he doesn’t use his infallibility.
Besides why would Catholics care about what Jews and Schismatics tell them to pray in the Catholic liturgies and what language to use.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

May I put in a hopefully final word here?

I wish that we would not be the verge (or so it sometimes appears) of attacking others for their beliefs in the course of defending ours.

Surely we can say, “While you find joy and meaning in a vernacular Mass, I find joy and meaning in a Latin Mass”, and not feel as though in order to elevate our preference, we need to denigrate (in any way) the preference of another.

Therefore, if ANYTHING I said ever implied, overtly or subtly, that ‘my’ preference was ‘better’ than anothers’—please accept my sincerest apologies. I believe strongly that I can have a reasonable preference or inclination for ‘one’ thing and have it be understood that though I have that preference, I do NOT have indifference, dislike or even outright hatred for other preferences. But sometimes it is hard both for me to express this, and/or for others to understand this. I hope it’s clearer now --I love the vernacular Mass. Due to personal thought/ prayer/ experience/ culture, I prefer a Latin Mass if it is available so I am glad that there will hopefully be more available,in the future, but whenever it is not available for me I take just as much joy and pleasure in attending the vernacular Mass (as I did this morning).

I don’t want all Masses to turn ‘back’ to Latin ones. I don’t want to take ‘anything’ away from anyone else. I don’t want to put obstacles in anybody’s way. I don’t want to force anyone into a Mass rite that he dislikes–I WANT there to be a choice, for everyone. And God bless our Pope, and our bishops, and our priests, for all they do.

God bless all Catholics. God bless our Orthodox brethren. God bless all other Christians. God bless nonChristians. May we one day all be united with Him forever.

 

[mtr01]

This thread is quite a shame. The simple answer to the OP is that God speaks whatever language He wants.

 

[SLCFranciscan]

I frequently pray the Night Office in Latin.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.