God Exists says Science!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Linusthe2nd
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Linusthe2nd

Guest
Two links to two one hour discussions by Fr. Robert Spitzer of the Magis Center for Reason and Faith show that God indeed exists. I will not debate this because I am not a scientist. You can debate it among yourselves. But you have to listen to both radio broadcasts from Catholic Answers Radio archives.
  1. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-i-6821#
  2. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-ii-6822#
magisreasonfaith.org/

Thomas Aquinas would be proud.

:extrahappy::extrahappy::dancing :clapping::clapping:
 
Two links to two one hour discussions by Fr. Robert Spitzer of the Magis Center for Reason and Faith show that God indeed exists. I will not debate this because I am not a scientist. You can debate it among yourselves. But you have to listen to both radio broadcasts from Catholic Answers Radio archives.
  1. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-i-6821#
  2. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-ii-6822#
magisreasonfaith.org/

Thomas Aquinas would be proud.

:extrahappy::extrahappy::dancing :clapping::clapping:
Two Encores

catholic.com/radio/shows/the-existence-of-god-encore-6691

catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-for-atheists-7538 👍👍
 
It would be nice if science could prove that God exists but God falls outside the realm of science because He can’t be located or seen in order to be measured and studied. That’s what science does.

The other thing is that if some Scientists say that God exists, you can’t say ‘God exists says Science’. If a scientist says that God exists it is a statement of faith, not science.
 
Thanks for posting this. I’m listening now! Recently read Spitzer’s book “Ten Universal Principles.”
 
It would be nice if science could prove that God exists but God falls outside the realm of science because He can’t be located or seen in order to be measured and studied. That’s what science does.

The other thing is that if some Scientists say that God exists, you can’t say ‘God exists says Science’. If a scientist says that God exists it is a statement of faith, not science.
Nothing can prove God exists in the sense that there can be no possibility of doubt. What Fr. Spitzer says is that Science has taken us to the boundry of the physical universe in that it has proven ( for all intents and purposes ) that the physical universe, had an absolute beginning in time and space. But that it exists now can only be due to the Creative Action of an Agent outside the boundries of the the physical universe. And judging from the effects of that creative act, this Agent can only be a Being Christians would recognize as God.

Did you listen to the links??? 🤷🤷
 
Nothing can prove God exists in the sense that there can be no possibility of doubt.
That is not the issue. Roveau points out that you make a category error.

Science can only prove something according to the scientific method, which requires study by observation and/or experiment. Science uses, by definition and by self-limitation, methodological naturalism as method, the search for natural causes to natural effects. God cannot prove or disprove God.

What you mean is that Spitzer offers philosophical proofs from science. This is different from proof by science proper.

BTW, I say all this as a scientist myself (a biochemist).

If one of Spitzer’s arguments is the apparent fine-tuning of the laws of nature, I agree with that. It is a strong argument for those who actually think it through, in my view. But again, this is not a scientific argument, but a philosophical argument from the findings of science.
 
If a scientist says that God exists it is a statement of faith, not science.
Or a philosophical statement. Not necessarily a statement of faith. Aristotle didn’t have faith in the sense of religious faith, but he argued philosophically for the existence of God.
 
That is not the issue. Roveau points out that you make a category error.

Science can only prove something according to the scientific method, which requires study by observation and/or experiment. Science uses, by definition and by self-limitation, methodological naturalism as method, the search for natural causes to natural effects. God cannot prove or disprove God.

What you mean is that Spitzer offers philosophical proofs from science. This is different from proof by science proper.

BTW, I say all this as a scientist myself (a biochemist).

If one of Spitzer’s arguments is the apparent fine-tuning of the laws of nature, I agree with that. It is a strong argument for those who actually think it through, in my view. But again, this is not a scientific argument, but a philosophical argument from the findings of science.
Science, physics and mathematics in particular, proves a creation event-that’s the point being made here. An absolute beginning of all phyisical reality pops into existence from nothing. That’s what the BVG theorem proved in 2003 that Fr refers to, which has yet to be challenged in any way in physics. The singularity is a proof that a boundary exists at the beginning of the universe prior to which there is an absolute nothingness or non-existence of the physical reality. This necessitates a transcendent (to all physical reality) reality capable of this event of causing the universe or physical reality to pop into existence from a state of absolute nothingness. At the very least it’s a scientific proof of a reality completely beyond and independent of physical reality.

The reason science can’t DISprove God ever is its inductive nature and its dependence on physical data. It cannot exclude God in much the same way it can’t disprove aliens in the universe- it cannot claim to have observed all that there’s to reality so as to exclude the existence of certain realities. But it can make discoveries of extra-physical realities by discovering or proving a dependance of physical reality on a reality beyond. So in that sense, it can prove THAT there is such a reality but not what the nature of this reality is, only that it’s beyond any kind of physics or physical dimensions or laws or nature.
 
It would be nice if science could prove that God exists but God falls outside the realm of science because He can’t be located or seen in order to be measured and studied. That’s what science does.

The other thing is that if some Scientists say that God exists, you can’t say ‘God exists says Science’. If a scientist says that God exists it is a statement of faith, not science.
The Church holds that we may know through reason that God exists. Granted, “reason” is a broader term than “science” but reason is not contrary to science (-though some claims of modern scientists are contrary to reason.)

I would amend your last statement to a ‘statement of reason’ instead of ‘faith.’
 
I think if we take Al Mortiz’s distinction between scientific evidence and philosophical conclusions inferred from that evidence (as we should), we cannot say that the scientific evidence we have indicates that the universe came into being.

This is because things can only come into being if a certain philosophical theory of time is true, and our scientific evidence itself does not favor any particular philosophical theory of time. Thus, the only thing the scientific evidences such as the expansion of the universe, or the CMBR, or the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem (etc.) indicates is that the universe had a first or initial state. Whether or not this state came into being is a conclusion we can only draw once we endorse a particular theory of time and conjoin it with the scientific evidence.

These competing theories of time are broadly known as the A-theory and the B-theory.

The former basically says that there is a real temporal transition from event to event, and from state to state. Time seems to ‘flow’ like a river on A-theory, the ‘present’ is an absolute reference frame from which we can say what is ‘really’ the past, and it’s generally said once something passes from present to past it ceases to exist.

B-theory, on the other hand, says that time-space is like a giant ‘block’ that’s divided into slices. Each of these slices exists, none being less real than another. Time is like a spatial dimension. What we call the ‘present’ is the time-slice we’re at, but other things are at different time-slices and thus the ‘present’ is in their region of the block to them. There is no absolute ‘present’ or ‘past’ or ‘future’, no absolute reference frame from which we can say what is ‘really’ the past, since all time-slices equally exist.‘Future’ and ‘past’ are like directions in the ‘block’. e.g., Dinosaurs exist in a time slice earlier than this one. (Time-travel is only possible on B-theory, since only on B-theory is there ‘somewhere’ to travel to in the past)

Things can only ‘come into being’ if the A-theory is true. But, many, many scientists and philosophers are B-theorists (most were because of Einstein’s theories of relativity) and they’re perfectly capable of accepting Big Bang Cosmology etc. So, Big Bang Cosmology by itself cannot tell us whether the universe came into being, it’s left up to us to discover the best philosophical interpretation of the scientific evidence.

As one of the world’s foremost experts on the Kalam cosmological argument (which specializes in the scientific and philosophical evidence for the temporal beginning of the universe), Dr. William Lane Craig, explains:

“On a B-Theory of time, the universe does not in fact come into being or become actual at the Big Bang; it just exists tenselessly as a four-dimensional space-time block that is finitely extended in the earlier than direction. If time is tenseless, then the universe never really comes into being, and, therefore, the quest for a cause of its coming into being is misconceived. Although G. W. F. Leibniz’s question, Why is there (tenselessly) something rather than nothing?, should still rightly be asked, there would be no reason to look for a cause of the universe’s beginning to exist, since on tenseless theories of time the universe did not begin to exist in virtue of its having a first event anymore than a meter stick begins to exist in virtue of having a first centimeter.” - Craig, William Lane., and James Porter Moreland. The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. Chichester, U.K.: Wiley-Blackwell, 2009. pp. 183-84.
 
How does the B-theory handle causality? For example, if there is no before and after, then why look for a cause of, say, cancer?
 
Two links to two one hour discussions by Fr. Robert Spitzer of the Magis Center for Reason and Faith show that God indeed exists. I will not debate this because I am not a scientist. You can debate it among yourselves. But you have to listen to both radio broadcasts from Catholic Answers Radio archives.
  1. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-i-6821#
  2. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-ii-6822#
magisreasonfaith.org/

Thomas Aquinas would be proud.

:extrahappy::extrahappy::dancing :clapping::clapping:
Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God for two simple reasons. First science is based on the fundamental assumption of the existence of a cause and effect relationship and that cannot be proved by science itself. Second science is the simplest model to describe an event, science is not really about truth but about Occam’s razor applied to physical models. The nice thing to remember is that usually good science should not contradict truth, I say usually because even good science is usually inductive and that approach cannot be proved to be valid by science either.
 
Two links to two one hour discussions by Fr. Robert Spitzer of the Magis Center for Reason and Faith show that God indeed exists. I will not debate this because I am not a scientist. You can debate it among yourselves. But you have to listen to both radio broadcasts from Catholic Answers Radio archives.
  1. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-i-6821#
  2. catholic.com/radio/shows/proofs-for-gods-existence-part-ii-6822#
magisreasonfaith.org/

Thomas Aquinas would be proud.

:extrahappy::extrahappy::dancing :clapping::clapping:
Science proves God… does that make God falsifiable? 😃
 
Science proves God… does that make God falsifiable? 😃
That reminds me of when I was working on my PhD thesis in physics. I was driving my thesis adviser crazy because of my skepticism in regard to the strength of some of the statements that we were making and he said: “Cristiano at some point you have to believe in something”.😃
 
Nothing can prove God exists in the sense that there can be no possibility of doubt. What Fr. Spitzer says is that Science has taken us to the boundry of the physical universe in that it has proven ( for all intents and purposes ) that the physical universe, had an absolute beginning in time and space. But that it exists now can only be due to the Creative Action of an Agent outside the boundries of the the physical universe. And judging from the effects of that creative act, this Agent can only be a Being Christians would recognize as God.
That’s quite an old argument. But I fail to see how an “outside agent” would need to be an omnipotent human-like power. I think Fr. Spitzer makes some strange assumptions, really, namely the second one about it being the Christian God. I think it is often this argument (or variants of it) that deists use to justify their beliefs.
 
Science, physics and mathematics in particular, proves a creation event-that’s the point being made here. An absolute beginning of all phyisical reality pops into existence from nothing. That’s what the BVG theorem proved in 2003 that Fr refers to, which has yet to be challenged in any way in physics. The singularity is a proof that a boundary exists at the beginning of the universe prior to which there is an absolute nothingness or non-existence of the physical reality. This necessitates a transcendent (to all physical reality) reality capable of this event of causing the universe or physical reality to pop into existence from a state of absolute nothingness. At the very least it’s a scientific proof of a reality completely beyond and independent of physical reality.

The reason science can’t DISprove God ever is its inductive nature and its dependence on physical data. It cannot exclude God in much the same way it can’t disprove aliens in the universe- it cannot claim to have observed all that there’s to reality so as to exclude the existence of certain realities. But it can make discoveries of extra-physical realities by discovering or proving a dependance of physical reality on a reality beyond. So in that sense, it can prove THAT there is such a reality but not what the nature of this reality is, only that it’s beyond any kind of physics or physical dimensions or laws or nature.
Don’t bite my head off, I’m only an undergrad, but Al Moritz post made sense to me. From my understanding, philosophy (like its branch of logic) and mathematics construct proofs, but science does not.

Proofs constructed in logic don’t even have to make certain an argument is true in the sense of the real world we live in but only have to show the form of that argument is valid or not, and if valid only it only means that if the world was as the premises says it is then this conclusion can only be true.

But science can only construct theories based upon other known theories and laws. And scientific laws while usually expressed mathematically can only be known to be true until a phenomenon occurs, is observed, and demonstrates said law to be incorrect. Ergo, modification or self correction in the body of knowledge of science occurs.

So, we can logically reason no aliens visit earth from other galaxies in the universe based upon distances of light years (ly) and the laws of physics which says no energy or matter can travel faster than the speed of light (c). However, if alien visitation was observed, or their travel to earth proven to have had a velocity (speed + direction) faster than c, then we would know are particular law in physics about nothing being able to travel faster than the speed of light is incorrect, at least given (name removed by moderator)uts X, Y, or Z.
 
Two links to two one hour discussions by Fr. Robert Spitzer of the Magis Center for Reason and Faith show that God indeed exists. I will not debate this because I am not a scientist. You can debate it among yourselves. But you have to listen to both radio broadcasts from Catholic Answers Radio archives.
Well, there goes free will. But at least it explains why I turned into a robot after listening to the link. Beep, whrrr, click.
 
Science is not an independent entity that speaks on behalf of itself and almighty God is outside the realm of scientific thought anyway. Nothing proved or disproved here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top