God forced me into existence

[Betterave]

Very well. Then why isn’t there a clause for people like to opt out of the whole affair and have nothing at all to do with heaven or hell. Just leave me alone?

God doesn’t offer us a system, he offers us the gift of eternal happiness. And there is an opt-out clause: hell! (Hell may well be something like ‘being left alone’ - that’s effectively where the rejection of love leaves you.)

You can’t reject the system except by offering an alternate system - but that would still be a system and we would still be left with your original problem. Why this system? What if I don’t like it?

So why didn’t God choose your system? I’m sure it’s because His is better! (That’s kind of what we have to assume, given the premises I’m sure we’re all familiar with!)

 

[Zatzat]

We do? You’ve conducted extensive research into how many people choose heaven and how many people choose hell at the end of their life?

I would be most interested in the methodology you employed in your research.

But that would probably take pages and pages of explanation. I’ll settle for a quick news bite style summary with the percentages and margin of error

Despite the fact that you seem to discount the availability of this option for whatever reason, existence in heaven with God for all of eternity is preferably to either.

You can’t enter heaven with even one unconfessed mortal sin upon ones soul. Have you seen a Church in Western society? Exactly how long are the confession lines?

Exactly.

Check mate.

 

[brianwalden]

Exactly.

God forces existence on us. Our entire lives, we’re apparently all deserving of hell. But our wondrous Lord has given us a way to reconcile with him…in the form of a blood sacrifice, of his own self no less!

If all this is real, I want nothing to do with any of it. Not heaven, not hell…none of it.

Where’s the opt out clause?

Existence was forced on me and now eternal damnation is my reward for being forced into existence.

How the heck does that make any sense???

So you agree, that it’s illogical to ask for the choice to exist before you exist. In order to have the desire to not exist, you must by necessity exist. So what you really want is a way to choose to not exist after you already exist, or as you so eloquently put it - an opt-out clause.

All I can say is, you exist; if you don’t like it, tough cookies. There’s lots of things in life we can’t choose. You say it doesn’t make sense, but that’s not really what you’re saying. What you’re saying is it’s not fair. Well who says life should correspond to your concept of fairness. Who says life should be fair.

You can decide that those dumb Christians don’t know what they’re talking about and live your life according to what you believe it’s true purpose is. But if you come to the conclusion that Christians are right then you’re going to live forever whether you like it or not, your only choice is where.

 

[WatchingMedia]

If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

I’ve been forced into existence, so that I may freely choose to reject him

My forced existence will have me languishing eternally in hell.

If God had not forced me into existence, I wouldn’t be able to reject him and I wouldn’t have to spend eternity suffering in hell.

God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?

Discuss.

He gave you a free will. It’s your choice.

 

[Betterave]

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that your will (the created) should supercede God’s will (the creator). You yourself admit that you don’t have the power to create or destroy yourself, but yet somehow you are quite sure that your idea of what is fair and not fair is superior to God’s. As I pointed out in my previous post, this sin is not remarkably different than any other where one decides they have a better plan than God does.

If your entire existence is dependent on God, where do you get the notion that anything other than God can determine what is the right path for you?

Basically, you are just asserting that you don’t believe in an all powerfull, all knowing God. You think that in certain areas you should get to call the shots, rather than God. In essence, you became your own God after God created you.

And yes, I know this is all in the “hypothetical” for you.

Looks like you nailed it.

 

[slywakka250]

So, essentially:
.1 If free will makes us more like God, as the Bible suggests, it’s good by nature (although it has the capacity to be used for evil).
2. Giving us free will would have to be considered a moral good, even though it opens up the aforementioned possibilities of misuse and damnation.
3. Depriving us of free will, even depriving those of us who God knows perfectly will misuse it, would be doing evil to prevent a greater evil - consequentialism at its worst, and something which the Bible rejects. Romans 3:8. God cannot do evil, period. So if free will is a moral good, and its deprivation conversely a moral evil, then it stands to reason that God, bound by His own Goodness, wouldn’t deprive us of this gift, even if He knew we would misuse it.

1. Yes I agree that if we are to have dignity as persons and as immortal souls, we must have free will.
2. yes, as we can’t really be in union with God and have the beatific vision without free will I don’t think, so its a moral good.
3. Here is where the problem is.

God creates a great many men, and he knows what percentage will choose him and what percentage will reject him.

God created the human heart, and the human personality, the human will. God knows how and why every man makes the choice he does; I’m NOT saying that God created some men with a deficiency which would lead them to reject him, but he DID create the conditions for which a rejection of him is possible, that is free will.God determined how much evidence he would provide for his existence. and how much Grace he would give to each man. God KNEW that sometimes the Grace he provided and the evidence he gave of himself would not be sufficient to turn the hearts of some sinners.

Now here is where “the risk of existence” comes into play. The dynamic of God’s justice and mercy and God’s standard of perfection, must set a standard for just “how good” a person has to be to avoid eternal fire. God must set in place a law of human action, a standard by which he will judge the hearts of men.

God knows how the human mind works, and takes this into consideration while determining his standard of perfection, so much so that he knows exactly how many souls will reach this standard, and how many will not.

The higher God raises the bar, the greater the risk of hell for each individual…

we on earth have NO CLUE where this bar is set at. We have some examples from canonized saints, but this doesn’t give us precise figures.

This is why the risk is unknown and it is perfectly sensible to wish that God had not placed an eternal bet by creating us, and wish that God had not exposed us to any level of risk at all.

You can trust in God all you want, but you must meet his standard of perfection; the stakes are eternal, and time is limited, and you might even doubt God’s existence on top of it all.

The game God is playing here is sick.

 

[coolduude]

You can’t enter heaven with even one unconfessed mortal sin upon ones soul. Have you seen a Church in Western society? Exactly how long are the confession lines?

Exactly.

Check mate.

This is wrong. What you’re forgetting (or perhaps just don’t know) is that the Church teaches that even if you can’t confess your sin, contrition before death will satisfy. You’ll probably be in Purgatory for a while, but you can still go to Heaven.

Zatzat, do you know why we should worship God, assuming He exists?

 

[Alindawyl]

You can’t enter heaven with even one unconfessed mortal sin upon ones soul. Have you seen a Church in Western society? Exactly how long are the confession lines?

Exactly.

Check mate.

Wrong. You can’t enter heaven with even one UNREPENTANT mortal sin on your soul. Confession is the normal means of repenting and seeking forgiveness from God. Having perfect contrition at the time of one’s death is an extraordinary means.

Maybe you have the idea that God is some cosmic bully peering over everyone’s proverbial shoulder, just waiting to catch us in sin, and then yelling “Gotcha!” as our soul sinks into hell. That couldn’t be further from the truth. God is perfectly merciful. No one goes to hell on a technicality. If someone is truly repentant in their heart, then even if they have never been to confession once in their life they will not be in hell.

By the same token, God is also perfectly just. No one avoids hell on a technicality. If someone is truly unrepentant in their heart, then no matter how many times they’ve gone to confession they WILL be in hell.

You must not believe that God’s judgment is perfect. He’s not a bigger, more powerful version of imperfect beings like us. He’s perfect and doesn’t make mistakes. I would no more presume that you will be in hell when you die than I would presume that I will be in heaven when I die. I have hope that I will persevere to the end, and I also have hope that you will not die separated from God. But I presume nothing either way. All I know is that each and every one of us will end up where we do because of our own freely chosen actions once it’s all said and done.

 

[Spirithound]

St. Anselm, as a premise of his “ontological argument” for God’s existence identifies existence as a perfection; that existence is better than non-existence. I don’t know the rationale behind that premise, but I trust.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

1. Yes I agree that if we are to have dignity as persons and as immortal souls, we must have free will.
2. yes, as we can’t really be in union with God and have the beatific vision without free will I don’t think, so its a moral good.
3. Here is where the problem is.

God creates a great many men, and he knows what percentage will choose him and what percentage will reject him.

God created the human heart, and the human personality, the human will. God knows how and why every man makes the choice he does; I’m NOT saying that God created some men with a deficiency which would lead them to reject him, but he DID create the conditions for which a rejection of him is possible, that is free will.God determined how much evidence he would provide for his existence. and how much Grace he would give to each man. God KNEW that sometimes the Grace he provided and the evidence he gave of himself would not be sufficient to turn the hearts of some sinners.

Now here is where “the risk of existence” comes into play. The dynamic of God’s justice and mercy and God’s standard of perfection, must set a standard for just “how good” a person has to be to avoid eternal fire. God must set in place a law of human action, a standard by which he will judge the hearts of men.

God knows how the human mind works, and takes this into consideration while determining his standard of perfection, so much so that he knows exactly how many souls will reach this standard, and how many will not.

The higher God raises the bar, the greater the risk of hell for each individual…

we on earth have NO CLUE where this bar is set at. We have some examples from canonized saints, but this doesn’t give us precise figures.

This is why the risk is unknown and it is perfectly sensible to wish that God had not placed an eternal bet by creating us, and wish that God had not exposed us to any level of risk at all.

You can trust in God all you want, but you must meet his standard of perfection; the stakes are eternal, and time is limited, and you might even doubt God’s existence on top of it all.

The game God is playing here is sick.

It only seems sick to you because you’re thinking in terms of how much work you think you have to do to be “good enough” for Heaven. This is the classic (Semi-)Pelagian position which the Church condemns as heretical. We are saved by grace through faith (although faith working in love, not faith alone), not by any works which we do. Our responsibility is to love and obey God.

Sin is wrong not because it’s against some arbitrary rule of some game you think God is playing, but because we’re doing the things which God, in His infinite Wisdom and Love for us, warned us not to do. For virtually any of them, an objective observer, with sufficient evidence, can point to the item in question and understand in what manner the individual is harmed by committing the sin. People treat sex like it’s a harmless game, for example, but if you look at the number of deaths from AIDS, abortions, etc., you see it’s perhaps the most dangerous force on Earth – and that’s not even counting the innumerable lives ruined and hearts broken in other ways.

The same thing goes for virtually anything else. Even this whole schtick about how God “needs” us to love Him. He doesn’t. He’s the definition of completeness, in need of nothing except that which He chooses to be in need of. He just desires what’s best for us, and knows that “what’s best for us” is for us to love Him; we are better individuals as a result. I think a fair assessment of those genuinely in love with the Lord will demonstrate that they’re on of the most powerful forces for good on Earth. The second great commandment flows naturally from the first.

So this emphatically **isn’t **what some atheists and sadly, even some Catholics, think it is: some sort of test whereby we prove ourselves good enough for God. We never can pass that test. Ever. Instead, He’s created us on this Earth to be joyful in this life, but more importantly, to experience the joys of Heaven forever with Him. Sin and damnation come as a result of us resisting this plan, and thinking we have a better one.

 

[vera_dicere]

I certainly did not choose to exist. Either God forced me into existance or I came into existence by random chance…without Gods intervention.

God crafted humanity, either through the story or a similar story as laid out in Genesis, through evolution or some other formulae humans haven’t theorised upon yet.

With that said, God doesn’t force any human into existance. Your parents do, inadvertantly, of course.

God has laid down specific instruction as to the circumstances that human reproduction should take place under, ie. married straight couple. But there are those who refuse this plan and engage in sexual acts which result in unplanned pregnancies. Now, God doesn’t force that little sperm to hit that little egg. The sperm and the ovum are simply existing and doing what they do as laid down through evolutationary/divine programming.

For example, say you place a ball at the top of the hill, someone comes along and nudges it, the ball rolls down the hill. Who’s fault is it that that the ball rolled down the hill? Your’s for placing it there, or the person who knocked it? You have some part to play in placing the ball there, of course, but you by no means forced it down.

Or consider IVF. Did God force those embryos into existance when the doctor inserted the sperm’s head into the centre of the ovum? Did God force the successful embryo into existance when the doctor implanted the embryo in the womb?

God has simply provided us with the means to create (or perhaps co-create) life. He does not force anyone to do anything. He did not force your parents to have sex. He did not force sperm you to fertilise ovum you.

I can only reject or accept God because I exist. If God hadn’t created me, I wouldn’t exist and run the risk of rejecting him…and ending up in hell.

God knew of your pending existance. He knew the actions your parents would take. I don’t know your conception circumstances, but He sure as heck didnt’ force you into existance. Knowing of your pending existance is not forcing your existance.

Just as God did not force you into existance, He is not forcing you too choose Him. You can face the consquences of not choosing Him, but as already mentioned, there must be full knowledge et al to truly face the consquence for refusal of God.

If God had no role in my existence, then the God of the Bible isn’t real and there is no heaven or hell.

You’re basing that conclusion on the premise that God forced your existance. Since he didn’t, you’re conclusion is faulty.

To know of one’s creation and to force it are two totally different things.

 

[Geremia]

If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

This is a contradiction akin to saying, me being a man, “All men are liars.” How can you choose to exist if you have to exist first to choose?

God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?

No, I think it would be worse. Every created thing of God—i.e., everything that God created ex nihilo, “out of nothing”—is good: omnis creatura Dei bona est: “every creature of God is good.” (1 Timothy 4:4). Being, therefore, is good; lack of being—e.g., the extreme of non-existence—is therefore a complete privation or lack of good: evil. God is the Supreme Being, of which all other being only approaches. When one sins, he is “be-ing” less; this is death. When one practices virtue, he is being more like God, “be-ing” more; this is life.

 

[Zatzat]

But you parents are not omniscient, like God is. If your parents were omniscient, they would have foreknowledge that you would freely choose to die in a car crash the next day, and they would do everything they could to make sure that didn’t happen.

God on the other hand, would happily give you the car, and let you die. Be happy you don’t have God watching out for you…

1. Yes I agree that if we are to have dignity as persons and as immortal souls, we must have free will.
2. yes, as we can’t really be in union with God and have the beatific vision without free will I don’t think, so its a moral good.
3. Here is where the problem is.

God creates a great many men, and he knows what percentage will choose him and what percentage will reject him.

God created the human heart, and the human personality, the human will. God knows how and why every man makes the choice he does; I’m NOT saying that God created some men with a deficiency which would lead them to reject him, but he DID create the conditions for which a rejection of him is possible, that is free will.God determined how much evidence he would provide for his existence. and how much Grace he would give to each man. God KNEW that sometimes the Grace he provided and the evidence he gave of himself would not be sufficient to turn the hearts of some sinners.

Now here is where “the risk of existence” comes into play. The dynamic of God’s justice and mercy and God’s standard of perfection, must set a standard for just “how good” a person has to be to avoid eternal fire. God must set in place a law of human action, a standard by which he will judge the hearts of men.

God knows how the human mind works, and takes this into consideration while determining his standard of perfection, so much so that he knows exactly how many souls will reach this standard, and how many will not.

The higher God raises the bar, the greater the risk of hell for each individual…

we on earth have NO CLUE where this bar is set at. We have some examples from canonized saints, but this doesn’t give us precise figures.

This is why the risk is unknown and it is perfectly sensible to wish that God had not placed an eternal bet by creating us, and wish that God had not exposed us to any level of risk at all.

You can trust in God all you want, but you must meet his standard of perfection; the stakes are eternal, and time is limited, and you might even doubt God’s existence on top of it all.

The game God is playing here is sick.

You certainly have a way with words! I couldn’t agree with you more…good post.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We have a far greater chance of ending up eternally damned and being tortured for all of eternity.

Non-existence is much, much more preferable than hell.

Really? Where are the statistics to back you up? Actually there is not one person–not even one–whom the Church has determined authoritatively to be in Hell, Zatzat.

Not one. Not even Judas. Not even Hitler.

However, there are thousands and thousands of people --the saints, canonized saints–whom the Church knows on the authority of the Holy Spirit to be in Heaven.

Hmmn, let me think.

Not ONE person known to be in hell.

Thousands known to be in heaven.

Your argument just fell over, whimpered and died.

Oh, and the non-existence? Let me know about all the people who have experienced non existence and found it preferable to existence in hell.

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

You came into existence because your parent’s had sex. Your parents made a free choice to copulate and it just so happened that you started living then. It was because of the way nature operates that you began to exist. God created nature and so he is indirectly responsible for your existence but without your parent’s free cooperation in the creative process, you would still not exist.

He also didn’t create you to reject Him, He would rather have you chose him and it is quite easy to chose him in fact. Perhaps not at first but once C.S. Lewis was asked, " Is it easy to love God?" To which he responded, " It is to those who do it." God’s a pretty cool dude and has your best interest in mind. I find it easier to cooperate with God than to reject him for any various reasons.
You are also forgetting, as atheists often do, that there is another side to the equation. The other side is that God is offering you eternal salvation and everlasting joy. In fact He is offering you partnership in His Divine Nature ( 2nd Peter 1:4) where we will share in the love of the family that is the Trinity forever! That sounds like something to look forward to.
Also, try to keep in mind that we are here and it is almost pointless to wish, " Oh, why did God make me?" Because IMHO it is fairly obvious that He did and that now the gift of life is what we have been given and we must decide what to do with it.

I hope all goes well with you!
Peace,
John

 

[LilyM]

But you parents are not omniscient, like God is. If your parents were omniscient, they would have foreknowledge that you would freely choose to die in a car crash the next day, and they would do everything they could to make sure that didn’t happen.

God on the other hand, would happily give you the car, and let you die. Be happy you don’t have God watching out for you…

But your parents ALSO can’t undo the damage - ie potentially raise you back to life (literally!) even when you DO go ahead and kill yourself. Assuming, of course, that before you die you permit and ask Him to do so and acknowledge your own recklessness in regards your death.

I’d SO much rather have God watching out for me than just my parents or anyone else’s…

 

[fhansen]

If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

I’ve been forced into existence, so that I may freely choose to reject him

My forced existence will have me languishing eternally in hell.

If God had not forced me into existence, I wouldn’t be able to reject him and I wouldn’t have to spend eternity suffering in hell.

God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?

Discuss.

So do you disagree with God that your existing is better than your non-existing? Which would you prefer at this moment? And do you think, once existing, that a being maybe should choose evil over goodness? Is justice *not *served by giving one existence and then only demanding they do what’s right?

To choose God is the equivalent of choosing goodness/love over evil/selfishness in a conscious, ultimate way, although it can take time to make the connection. It’s to admit to there being an objective morality-that we’re simply meant to be morally responsible beings-great or potentially great in our own right and yet inherently inferior to and obligated to obey “Something bigger” than ourselves.

We’re basically commanded to** love**. We’re not forced to do so and yet, can we really argue against the justice in being commanded to? Perhaps there’s an “injustice”-a disorder of sorts-in* us*, that means that we don’t love as we really ought-an injustice that, at it’s extreme, is the cause of the most heinous evils the world has known. And that’s the purpose of the redemption-to bring us back to the beings God has in mind. Is that a bad thing?

 

[buffalo]

No existence , no choice, no opportunity, no free-will, no eternity with God.

 

[Betterave]

You certainly have a way with words! I couldn’t agree with you more…good post.

uh…no! not a good post!

Belloc provided a very good rebuttal of slywakka’s very warped understanding of God (God the risk assessment manager, raising and lower bars for us to jump over - not even close to the Catholic understanding!). Didn’t you read it?

 

[curlycool89]

If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

…

And that’s a issue because … ?