God forced me into existence

[Marc_Anthony]

That’s my point exactly. Living a life completely absent of God…being sent to hell where there is a complete absence of God…there’d be no difference.

However, some Catholics claim God will assure that I am tortured while in hell.

I’m no philosopher, so if my ideas are flawed and raw, forgive me.

However, the way I see it, your point ultimately leads to nothing. First of all the Church does not promise tortures in Hell in the sense of torture actively inflicted upon you. I think of Hell as a permanent version of Purgatory.

First of all, even if you don’t think God is not around you, he is. We’re talking Christian understanding here, right? Specifically Catholic? So the Holy Spirit is on Earth with us. Though it may seem that way at times, the Earth is NOt Hell. God is here, if not fully like in Heaven.

Purgatory is like Hell. The difference with Purgatory is that it’s not permanent.

Hell is absence of God. This is torture. I think of it as the horrible pang of a loved one’s death, but way worse and for eternity.

God IS giving you the choice to exist without him. But he’s telling you that this choice basically sucks. You don’t have to believe him, but don’t say he didn’t warn you.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

God didn’t stoop anywhere…it was an illusion…he’s apparently immortal.

Now you’re misunderstanding Catholic teaching completely. So I’m out. Whether you like it or not () God bless.

 

[Zatzat]

I’m no philosopher, so if my ideas are flawed and raw, forgive me.

However, the way I see it, your point ultimately leads to nothing. First of all the Church does not promise tortures in Hell in the sense of torture actively inflicted upon you. I think of Hell as a permanent version of Purgatory.

Sir, the number of forum members who’ve personally warned me of the pains and physical agonies of hell…I’ve lost count. In fact, even one Catholic has warned me that hell has different levels of physical agony for different sinners!!!

Hell is absence of God. This is torture. I think of it as the horrible pang of a loved one’s death, but way worse and for eternity.

I’d be Ok without his presence, especially the God of the Bible. However, I would resent his bringing me into existence so that I can wait around doing nothing for eternity in hell.

God IS giving you the choice to exist without him. But he’s telling you that this choice basically sucks. You don’t have to believe him, but don’t say he didn’t warn you.

Of course, this goes back to my original point. God has forced life upon us, forces us to take part in his scheme and then forces us to either love him or reject him.

There is no opt out clause.

 

[Loboto-Me]

You’ll meet God because our souls whether good or bad is naturally attracted to Him. Like a moth to a porch light, our soul will want to be near it… that’s what the soul does.

 

[Zatzat]

You’ll meet God because our souls whether good or bad is naturally attracted to Him. Like a moth to a porch light, our soul will want to be near it… that’s what the soul does.

…then God casts us into hell…but it’s my choice!

…and who forces me to meet this God? May I opt out?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Of course, this goes back to my original point. God has forced life upon us, forces us to take part in his scheme and then forces us to either love him or reject him.

There is no opt out clause.

Ew, I promised to leave, but here I am…

Very well, last post, then I’ll follow from a distance. Does your concept of omnipotence mean for you that God can do the logically impossible?

It’s a semi-rhetorical question. Your answer will certainly spawn new discussion.

BTW, it’s POSSIBLE there is torture in Hell in the sense of torture intentionally inflicted on you. As far as I know it is no official Church teaching. Personally, I don’t believe it’s necessary.

 

[Zatzat]

Ew, I promised to leave, but here I am…

Very well, last post, then I’ll follow from a distance. Does your concept of omnipotence mean for you that God can do the logically impossible?

It’s a semi-rhetorical question. Your answer will certainly spawn new discussion.

BTW, it’s POSSIBLE there is torture in Hell in the sense of torture intentionally inflicted on you. As far as I know it is no official Church teaching. Personally, I don’t believe it’s necessary.

My assertion that it is unreasonable that God forces life to exist, then forces that life to take part in his scheme of salvation…is illogical?

Please explain.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

My assertion that it is unreasonable that God forces life to exist, then forces that life to take part in his scheme of salvation…is illogical?

Please explain.

Not what I said. I just asked if you thought that God could do the logically impossible. Does omnipotence mean that God can make 2+2=5?

This question is relevant.

 

[prolifewife]

Why will I meet God? Seriously? So he can say " told ya so!"

God wants to meet all his children one day. He’s looking forward to it, not so He can give you punishment, but because He loves you and wants you to be with Him forever. Once you see God, you may choose to be with Him, or you may continue to choose how you are choosing now. After that choice, no more choices will be allowed. God loves and wants you and will do anything and everything to help you get to Him and to live with Him forever.

Do you by chance suffer from scrupulosity or OCD? It seems like you might.

 

[slywakka250]

Yes, God created you and me and everyone out of nothing. He risked you and me and everyone else calling Him cruel and mean and horrible blasphemies too. He risked all this because He wants YOU (and everyone) to live with Him forever in heaven. Can you bring a dog into existence? Would you die for a dog? Would you risk your good name and all your friends and family to save a dog? Yet God stooped that low, lower even, so we could go to the place he created for us. God only created heaven. Hell was created from the moment of the first angel’s fall, and was opened to us at the time of Adam and Eve’s fall. We made hell by separating ourselves from God through sin. We said, we’d rather be in this awful place than love you. God made Heaven, only heaven.

I do not dispute the eternity and the immensity of God’s love, and how all he does is love! and that his love is beautifully precious, and that he died for each and every one of us.

But what bothers me is that love is risky! love can be dangerous! it is necessarily so or love just wouldn’t be love.

If I blame God, I blame him for loving us too much.

By being so soooo in love with his creation this God took a risk; he risked that his creation might not love him back.

Now do the souls that reject God, enjoy their time in hell?? If they do, well then I won’t worry about hell so much. If they don’t, then why did they choose to go there in the first place??

If they don’t enjoy their time in hell, they will have realized they made a mistake. We have the rich man in scripture, clearly regretting his choices, as he tries to warn his brother about the fires!!

I wrote above about the “risk level” of the universe. Now I see the very nature of love necessitates a certain “risk level” which may be quite high for all we know!! If the “risk level” is very high,i.e(lots of people in hell at the end of time), then I can’t help but question whether God’s love is really love at all???

What if it is a result of God’s love, and God’s loving creation that the conditions already exist that more souls will choose hell than will choose heaven…

If that is even possible then I see every reason for wishing for annihilation now. Anyway out of this horrible scheme of God’s love…!!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Now do the souls that reject God, enjoy their time in hell?? If they do, well then I won’t worry about hell so much. If they don’t, then why did they choose to go there in the first place??

Your arguement doesn’t seem as well developed to me as Zatzat’s.

You make an excellent point. Don’t choose Hell.

This goes back to the logically impossible question again.

 

[Loboto-Me]

…then God casts us into hell…but it’s my choice!

…and who forces me to meet this God? May I opt out?

Your own soul will go directly to God because it’s naturally attracted, but God doesn’t break His own rules The choice has to be made by the person before death because He needs to be shown that we loved Him without seeing Him. Not just because of what He does for us but what we did for Him, how we chose to follow Him.

I personally don’t go by the adage that once we see the Beautific vision that we’d still choose to go to Hell. Thus people saying that Hell is a choice once in front of God. I think that the Beautific vision would make us all choose Him, I think the rule of the “game” is that you have to choose and follow BEFORE death.

 

[Zatzat]

Not what I said. I just asked if you thought that God could do the logically impossible. Does omnipotence mean that God can make 2+2=5?

This question is relevant.

My premise…what is illogical?

 

[Zatzat]

Your own soul will go directly to God because it’s naturally attracted, but God doesn’t break His own rules The choice has to be made by the person before death because He needs to be shown that we loved Him without seeing Him. Not just because of what He does for us but what we did for Him, how we chose to follow Him.

I personally don’t go by the adage that once we see the Beautific vision that we’d still choose to go to Hell. Thus people saying that Hell is a choice once in front of God. I think that the Beautific vision would make us all choose Him, I think the rule of the “game” is that you have to choose and follow BEFORE death.

Then God should show himself now…so that I may make a proper informed choice…or am I forced to play by Gods rules, in that he won’t show himself until I’m dead?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

My premise…what is illogical?

You’re evading the question now.

 

[slywakka250]

Your arguement doesn’t seem as well developed to me as Zatzat’s.

You make an excellent point. Don’t choose Hell.

This goes back to the logically impossible question again.

You missed my argument I think

God created man knowing some would reject him and some would accept him.

At the end of time, there will be true count of those who accepted and those who rejected him.

This true count represents the measure of man as a whole, and man’s success at responding to the Grace of God as a whole.

This true count also represents the “risk” of existence is a very existentialist way. We still have complete free will to choose either option, but the risk is present by our very existence, and it is so, because there is a final outcome which really exists for eternity.

The true count is completely unknown, and therefore the risk is unknown.

An unknown risk is an even greater risk than a known risk, even a known risk with fairly bad odds.

Therefore, God’s creation of mankind is very unjust and a cruel game God is playing. We should not be FORCED to take on a risk of this magnitude, and then find ourselves in hell!!
because God rolled the dice on our behalf. We had no choice in the matter, we had to play the game!

To opt-out is simply to have not existed, and God did not provide this option.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Then God should show himself now…so that I may make a proper informed choice…or am I forced to play by Gods rules, in that he won’t show himself until I’m dead?

Is your point that Hell and Earth are the same thing? Or that nonexistence and Hell are the same thing?

 

[Zatzat]

You’re evading the question now.

I’m being sincere…

You said, God can’t do what is illogical. What are you referring to?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

You missed my argument I think

God created man knowing some would reject him and some would accept him.

At the end of time, there will be true count of those who accepted and those who rejected him.

This true count represents the measure of man as a whole, and man’s success at responding to the Grace of God as a whole.

This true count also represents the “risk” of existence is a very existentialist way. We still have complete free will to choose either option, but the risk is present by our very existence, and it is so, because there is a final outcome which really exists for eternity.

The true count is completely unknown, and therefore the risk is unknown.

An unknown risk is an even greater risk than a known risk, even a known risk with fairly bad odds.

Therefore, God’s creation of mankind is very unjust and a cruel game God is playing. We should not be FORCED to take on a risk of this magnitude, and then find ourselves in hell!!
because God rolled the dice on our behalf. We had no choice in the matter, we had to play the game!

To opt-out is simply to have not existed, and God did not provide this option.

Ah! But why do you assume that God did not provide this option?

 

[Zatzat]

Therefore, God’s creation of mankind is very unjust and a cruel game God is playing. We should not be FORCED to take on a risk of this magnitude, and then find ourselves in hell!!
because God rolled the dice on our behalf. We had no choice in the matter, we had to play the game!

To opt-out is simply to have not existed, and God did not provide this option.

Excellent. My point exactly. I must say, you’ve articulated it much more eloquently.