God forced me into existence

[Zatzat]

Ah! But why do you assume that God did not provide this option?

Nonsense;

With my personality, there is no way I would have taken the risk of suffering eternal damnation. I would happily have chosen inhalation if given the choice from God.

 

[slywakka250]

My premise…what is illogical?

yes What is illogical???

I’m not sure if God could do something against his nature or against logic. I’d say probably not. but I’m open to the idea that 2 + 2 = 5 at least in theory. I haven’t ruled it out. I do see many convincing systems of belief that establish the certainty of this mathematical proposition, but I am not absolutely certain that any system of epistemology is correct at giving me real knowledge, and as the source of our knowledge cannot be fully explained, all our knowledge, even those of mathematical propositions, are granted very established, .but at least doubtable in principle yet.

but I’m curious about this discussion here. Why are we talking about what illogical for God? How is this relevant to the question of God’s forcing our existence?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m being sincere…

You said, God can’t do what is illogical. What are you referring to?

Nothing you said is outright illogical. It’s kind of…subtle.

Well, I’ll start with the premise (that you may or may not accept, but I will) that God does indeed give us a choice to try this salvation thing or be blinked out of existence. We, however, don’t remember it.

So, we die. We choose to reject God. Not being with God permanently is Hell.

But why does God just not make it Hell?

Logically, this is impossible. Being without God is Hell. Period. It simply can’t be anything less than Hell, no matter how much anybody wants it to be.

Why does God not give us the choice to blink out of existence completely instead of go to Hell?

Because that would still be Hell since we would be without God.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Nonsense;

With my personality, there is no way I would have taken the risk of suffering eternal damnation. I would happily have chosen inhalation if given the choice from God.

Would you?

What if you had been given a taste of the possible joy of Heaven?

Perhaps everybody on Earth is a little bit crazy. Even the seemingly normal ones are crazy compared to all those who chose not to exist.

 

[Zatzat]

Why does God not give us the choice to blink out of existence completely instead of go to Hell?

Because that would still be Hell since we would be without God.

Hell is a place where upon a person experiences existence in the absence of God.

Non-existence is not hell. There is no experience of anything, as there is no soul, no person, no entity, no nothing that can experience, feel or be part of anything.

You made a good effort, but your argument is a total failure.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Hell is a place where upon a person experiences existence in the absence of God.

Non-existence is not hell. There is no experience of anything, as there is no soul, no person, no entity, no nothing that can experience, feel or be part of anything.

You made a good effort, but your argument is a total failure.

But if you don’t experience it, then how do you know you want it or don’t want it?

 

[Zatzat]

Would you?

What if you had been given a taste of the possible joy of Heaven?

Perhaps everybody on Earth is a little bit crazy. Even the seemingly normal ones are crazy compared to all those who chose not to exist.

Your God doesn’t allow for this ’ taste of heaven’. He stays away and demands that we love him or reject him.

If we love, him all is well.

If we reject him, he assures that our forced existence and our forced decision is well punished.

 

[Zatzat]

But if you don’t experience it, then how do you know you want it or don’t want it?

I’m certain that I want nothing to do with the God of Abraham. That’s one of my points. If this God is real and he forced me into existence.

Surely I should have the choice to opt out of his scheme of salvation.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Your God doesn’t allow for this ’ taste of heaven’. He stays away and demands that we love him or reject him.

If we love, him all is well.

If we reject him, he assures that our forced existence and our forced decision is well punished.

How do you know that he doesn’t allow us this taste of Heaven?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m certain that I want nothing to do with the God of Abraham.

How can you be certain of this?

If God is moniscient, as the Abrahamic God at any rate claims to be, perhaps he really does know what you want better than you do.

EDIT: Now I’m really out.

I’m sure somebody else will continue this fascinating discussion.

Nice talking with you all.

 

[slywakka250]

But if you don’t experience it, then how do you know you want it or don’t want it?

God tells us heaven is the best possible experience. I believe him. I want it.

God tell us hell is the worst possible experience. I believe him. I don’t want it.

Non-existence is what I “experienced” before I was born. so In a way you could say I experienced it, though you can’t experience anything when you don’t exist. I don’t have any bad memories of my “non-existence”. but I would have bad memories of hell, for all eternity if I went there.

 

[Zatzat]

God tells us heaven is the best possible experience. I believe him. I want it.

God tell us hell is the worst possible experience. I believe him. I don’t want it.

Non-existence is what I “experienced” before I was born. so In a way you could say I experienced it, though you can’t experience anything when you don’t exist. I don’t have any bad memories of my “non-existence”. but I would have bad memories of hell, for all eternity if I went there.

This is true and is the entire crux of my argument.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Likely I will be ignored, and perhaps deservedly, but I am not grasping the point here.

Either Zatzat believes in God or he doesn’t.

If he doesn’t, then, in his thought process, no one created him and his wish for annihiliation will ultimately be fulfilled. If this life is all there is, he definitely can opt out anytime he wants. He just can’t escape ultimately opting out. But there’s no one to blame.

If he does believe in God, and can’t imagine the God of Abraham and Jesus being anything but awful, then he can reject them and either find some deity more to his liking or simply invent one to fit what he thinks a real god surely would be like.

If he does believe in the God of Abraham and Jesus, then he doesn’t have much choice but to believe that God is what He says He is; merciful and prepared to reward him with joy beyond his wildest imaginings unless the person simply wants to spend eternity worshipping himself like Satan, which is what hell is. One who believes in such a god would not be able to fit a desire for annihilation into his mind, because he would see either choice as his “good”, or the object of his ultimate desires.

To desire an annihilation option is either to simply not believe in the God of Abraham and Jesus in reality, or to have a poor understanding of Him and the choices He presents.

 

[coolduude]

This hasn’t been brought up yet, so let me add this. This is addressed mainly to the Catholics here:

Has anyone thought that maybe God will ‘exempt’ Mr. Zatzat at the moment of death? What I mean is that maybe Zatzat will be pardoned because of his disbelief. This can really only occur though if he’s sincere in his belief that God doesn’t exist; he must be intellectually honest and still not believe.

So maybe God will place Zat in a type of limbo that’s neither Hell nor Heaven or Purgatory, but a place of mild happiness? Or maybe he can be placed in a permanent form of Purgatory where pain is inflicted for the sins, but there isn’t total disconnect from God?

I’m just putting this out there because I really don’t think that an all-loving God will truly condemn someone to Hell if they truly don’t care. But, like I said, that carelessness must be sincere.

See what I’m saying? I’m pretty positive the Church doesn’t teach this so I should probably shape up to her teaching before I invent my own…

 

[Betterave]

yes What is illogical???

I’m not sure if God could do something against his nature or against logic. I’d say probably not. but I’m open to the idea that 2 + 2 = 5 at least in theory. I haven’t ruled it out. I do see many convincing systems of belief that establish the certainty of this mathematical proposition, but I am not absolutely certain that any system of epistemology is correct at giving me real knowledge, and as the source of our knowledge cannot be fully explained, all our knowledge, even those of mathematical propositions, are granted very established, .but at least doubtable in principle yet.

but I’m curious about this discussion here. Why are we talking about what illogical for God? How is this relevant to the question of God’s forcing our existence?

I have clearly pointed out what is illogical in ZatZat’s position. Care to respond to my posts? ZatZat doesn’t. He picks the weak arguments to respond to, or responds with a straw man, so that he can maintain the illusion that his own weak argument has merit.

Your position is better elaborated and the point you are missing is the very simple one found in the book of Genesis: God looked at all that he had made and saw that it was good. It’s a matter of seeing clearly and accurately. You don’t see this, but one day, we hope, you will. When you characterize creation as “forcing existence” you are simply not seeing clearly. Your analysis in terms of statistical risk is dear to you, but you have offered no reason for thinking that it is a sound approach to understanding the glory of God which is expressed in the goodness of his creation.

 

[Betterave]

Likely I will be ignored, and perhaps deservedly, but I am not grasping the point here.

Either Zatzat believes in God or he doesn’t.

If he doesn’t, then, in his thought process, no one created him and his wish for annihiliation will ultimately be fulfilled. If this life is all there is, he definitely can opt out anytime he wants. He just can’t escape ultimately opting out. But there’s no one to blame.

If he does believe in God, and can’t imagine the God of Abraham and Jesus being anything but awful, then he can reject them and either find some deity more to his liking or simply invent one to fit what he thinks a real god surely would be like.

If he does believe in the God of Abraham and Jesus, then he doesn’t have much choice but to believe that God is what He says He is; merciful and prepared to reward him with joy beyond his wildest imaginings unless the person simply wants to spend eternity worshipping himself like Satan, which is what hell is. One who believes in such a god would not be able to fit a desire for annihilation into his mind, because he would see either choice as his “good”, or the object of his ultimate desires.

To desire an annihilation option is either to simply not believe in the God of Abraham and Jesus in reality, or to have a poor understanding of Him and the choices He presents.

Very good post. The point Zat refuses to see is that he almost certainly has a poor understanding of the God of Abraham. If he *knew *Him, he wouldn’t say the things he does (unless he was intentionally lying).

 

[coolduude]

I have the option and the freedom to leave that state. The rules are not forced on me, I’m free to opt out by leaving.

What if the entire world was governed that way?

Would you go live on the moon?

 

[Zatzat]

I do not believe in any God…not just your God, but all of the Gods.

Yes, when we die, our persons cease and there is nothing left of us, except for a lifeless shell.

I am merely highlighting exactly why your christian story doesn’t make a whole lot of sense…what with our forced existance and forced entry into the salvation lottery.

 

[coolduude]

I do not believe in any God…not just your God, but all of the Gods.

Yes, when we die, our persons cease and there is nothing left of us, except for a lifeless shell.

I am merely highlighting exactly why your christian story doesn’t make a whole lot of sense…what with our forced existance and forced entry into the salvation lottery.

Again, you were allowed to exist. There’s a difference.

You haven’t answered my question- what if the whole world was ruled like that state?

And, may I ask, why don’t you believe in God anyway? (by God I mean a neccesary being- not the Christian God).

 

[MerryCatholic]

To the op,

I only want to say this, God has unimaginable joy and things in store for those who love Him. Jesus said it Himself, "However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” 1 Corinthians 2:9

That for me is enough said.For me, everything I suffer, every agony and pain is all worth it to me. I would never opt out. Never. I never felt forced to be here, and I never will. I am truly thankful for my life, and everything God gave me, and all my suffering, and believe me, I suffer tremendously, I offer it all up to Him. Its all been worthwhile to me. All of it. No man on this earth has ever, or ever will suffer as great as Jesus did. No man. Not even me. He did it because He loves us all. Even you. I don’t think your going to accept what I have to say, but when your body dies its earthly death, your soul wont die. It will meet Jesus Christ on the shores of eternity. And He will ask you, “Do you love Me?” what will you say? No, Jesus I don’t because I felt forced to exist. That will be the moment of your truest agony. Truest. I will pray for you, and when I say that, I mean it. But for me, when Jesus Christ asks me, “Do you love Me?” I will say to Him, Yes, Lord, I do, and I never stopped!".