God if this city for Mass

[superamazingman]

In the 1962 Missal it’s Psalm 90 and the gradual for the first Sunday in Lent. It’s quite long when sung in Gregorian Chant. When I was reading it I quickly noticed it was the Eagle’s Wings of the EF Mass.

yes, it is. It’s the tract too. in fact, all of the propers of the first Sunday of lent come from psalm 91(90).

Some may shutter at the thought, but textually speaking, if you are going to use hymns, it makes the most sense to use eagles wings at the procession, offertory AND communion. Sounds crazy, but it’s true.

 

[hope_7]

moore 11

you said that you would like to suggest certian sogs for mass earlier on this thread.
What would you suggest for songs for holy communion?
I have been asked to play in my church for holy communion .
One of the ones I was thinking about was ( Let all mortal flesh keep silence.)
I would like to hear what you have to suggest. Perhaps you could give me a link to the songs on you tube if they are there. This way I could listen to them and learn to play them on my hammered dulcimer.

 

[superamazingman]

moore 11

you said that you would like to suggest certian sogs for mass earlier on this thread.
What would you suggest for songs for holy communion?
I have been asked to play in my church for holy communion .
One of the ones I was thinking about was ( Let all mortal flesh keep silence.)
I would like to hear what you have to suggest. Perhaps you could give me a link to the songs on you tube if they are there. This way I could listen to them and learn to play them on my hammered dulcimer.

How about Adoro Te (Godhead here in hiding)? That’s a great eucharistic hymn.

 

[Moore11]

How about Adoro Te (Godhead here in hiding)? That’s a great eucharistic hymn.

Yes, and
Pannis Angelicus
O Sacrament Most Holy
Here I am Lord
One bread one Body
I Received the Living God

There are others but I am no music expert as I clearly stated before.

 

[hope_7]

Thank you I will go over thease and see what I can do

 

[TheDeaconsWife]

This is a simple matter… if the Bishop approves, then it’s okay. It doesn’t matter what people think. He has the final word.

 

[ajaxbogs]

I think the debate bigger than that… Happy clappy is empty. It is like the porn of religion. It is a hollow substinance for the real thing for authentic feeding… Many of the orthodox Masses are full of youth and many “teen” Masses are full of baby boomers.

As I stated, relevant music is not the full answer to the “exodus”.

I’d be very careful in calling the Protestant “happy, clappy”-“porn”. Is it the same Holy Spirit in their music as in our Mass? Your comment would imply not. So the alternative would be demonic. Then you could imply the invalidity of their “baptism”. Then you could question them as “brothers” (per the Cathecism). In my life I’ve participated in both & can tell you He (Holy Spirit) comes to both (yes, in God’s mercy to His separated Church). You’re on a slippery, judgmental slope with the “cute” phrases.

In my five years attending Catholic Masses, I’ve NEVER seen a orthodox Mass full of youth (or even close, or even half, or even a quarter…) Obviously I haven’t been to the parishes you have.

 

[ajaxbogs]

It’s text is actually quite close to psalm 91. The main problem with it’s liturgical use is the music, not the text.

I’m curious. Can you show me somewhere in Catholic doctrine where the “problem” is with this music for the mass? Do you think there is a problem with African or Latin American Masses with their often “lively” music? I really am curious.

 

[Moore11]

As I stated, relevant music is not the full answer to the “exodus”.

I’d be very careful in calling the Protestant “happy, clappy”-“porn”. Is it the same Holy Spirit in their music as in our Mass? Your comment would imply not. So the alternative would be demonic. Then you could imply the invalidity of their “baptism”. Then you could question them as “brothers” (per the Cathecism). In my life I’ve participated in both & can tell you He (Holy Spirit) comes to both (yes, in God’s mercy to His separated Church). You’re on a slippery, judgmental slope with the “cute” phrases.

In my five years attending Catholic Masses, I’ve NEVER seen a orthodox Mass full of youth (or even close, or even half, or even a quarter…) Obviously I haven’t been to the parishes you have.

A couple of things:

1. I think the point of calling all the happy clappy stuff porn is very descriptive of the point that is trying to be made.
   Porn is simulated intimacy and a perversion of the real thing. It is empty, addictive, and destructive. So is some of the ideas of uber progressives. It is all fluff and no stuff. It is all about feelings and how “I” feel rather than a commited holy union. Sounds like porn to me. I also think you are making a real stretch to imply what you implied about demonic, protestants, baptisms and as most progressives do you throw out the judgmental card and by doing so are being quite judgmental. Mine is an opinion that is in line with 2000 years of Tradition and Holy Mother Church. You can differ in that opinion, but please respect the right of others (and on this site it is MANY others) to disagree with you.
2. I dont know how many orthodox Masses you attend but in reality EVERY Mass SHOULD be “orthodox” and in line with the Church.
   I am not implying that some kind of 1960s throwback butterflies and flowers Mass cannot be in line with the Church but rather that it is hard. It is hard for many reasons. One is that that kind of thought hardly opens itself up to obedience, and respect. Another is that it is hard to govern. Bishops are busy, so is the Vatican. A great example is Lifeteen itself which has taken liberties in the past that had to be corrected.
   Gee, wouldn’t this all be easier if one could attend a Catholic Mass, truly universal and in line with the GIRM and Rome? Wouldn’t it be great if we could have a Mass, celebrated with all the Saints in a language and order that we ALL could participate in together? Wouldn’t it be great if a family missed a Mass at a certain time and a certain parish and found one at a neighboring parish at a different time and felt as if it was uniform?

As you explore threads on these forums you will find many many people and posts that lament the experimentation and long for authentic faith.
I have yet to find such a logical and Catholic opinion that extols the virtues of the opposite. Read, Study, learn and you will find that those who understand their faith love Tradition even if the Tradition is in the OF Mass. You will also find that outside of the National Fishwrap and the national media, the day of unorthodox and experimentation is as irrelevant as the dinosaurs. Look at the Nuns (LCWR) who are dying off, and the liberals who are rearranging chairs on a sinking ship. the ship has to sink because the the real ship, God’s Ship, the Church is not the ship they are on.

You will also find in the young Nuns Religious, and Priests a newfound love of Tradition and orthodoxy. They grew up in the age of experimentation and like many young Catholics are hungry to be fed and are tired of the empty unhealthy junk food that society and perhaps even the Church has been feeding them.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think the fellow was well within his right to post here and explain his side of the story. Too often we read/hear only one portion of things, it’s good to get both sides.

 

[MarkThompson]

I confess I haven’t been following this thread, and here I go bumping it again, but I really wish it could dropoff the front page of the L & S forum. Every time I see its title I wind up with Starship’s We Built This City stuck in my head for the next half hour, only with the lyrics “God if this city, / God if this city on rock and rooollllll . . . .”

 

[Moore11]

I confess I haven’t been following this thread, and here I go bumping it again, but I really wish it could dropoff the front page of the L & S forum. Every time I see its title I wind up with Starship’s We Built This City stuck in my head for the next half hour, only with the lyrics “God if this city, / God if this city on rock and rooollllll . . . .”

Thanks, now every time I hear this song all I am going to think of is Starship.
We should change the lyrics though.
“We built this city, we built this city on Eucharist.”

 

[ajaxbogs]

A couple of things:

1. I think the point of calling all the happy clappy stuff porn is very descriptive of the point that is trying to be made.
   Porn is simulated intimacy and a perversion of the real thing. It is empty, addictive, and destructive…
2. I dont know how many orthodox Masses you attend but in reality EVERY Mass SHOULD be “orthodox” and in line with the Church…

You will also find in the young Nuns Religious, and Priests a newfound love of Tradition and orthodoxy. They grew up in the age of experimentation and like many young Catholics are hungry to be fed and are tired of the empty unhealthy junk food that society and perhaps even the Church has been feeding them.

1. OK. Just say you don’t think the Holy Spirit participates in Protestant musical worship. “Empty” & “destructive” are certainly not His fruit. In my experience growing up in the Protestant church, I’ve seen this on rare occassions.
   Now I could see your point if Protestants claim their worship is the “same” (in effectiveness) as a Catholic Mass. They are void of the epiclesis, in which we are blessed, but this thread is about music for Mass.
2. Agreed. Every Mass should be orthodox. I was referring to what many parishes call “Traditional” vice “Contemporary” or “Youth” Masses. I’ve personally never been in the latter that wasn’t orthodox (per the Roman Missal).
3. By no means do I defend “wacko” actions of liberal priests & nuns, who received their training in the 60/70’s. May God have mercy, especially on those who empower the pro-death march in our society.
   Its interesting how a good number of the new Priests & Nuns are from out of this country. I’ll make it a point to talk to them about contemporary music in the Mass. I’m very interested in what parts of the world the Church is thriving & what the Masses are like there.

I have every right to express my opinion on the subject of music in the Mass. If I do it in a uncharitable manner, I trust the moderators to correct me. I apologize if I offended you. It wasn’t my intent.

 

[Moore11]

1. OK. Just say you don’t think the Holy Spirit participates in Protestant musical worship. “Empty” & “destructive” are certainly not His fruit. In my experience growing up in the Protestant church, I’ve seen this on rare occassions.
   Now I could see your point if Protestants claim their worship is the “same” (in effectiveness) as a Catholic Mass. They are void of the epiclesis, in which we are blessed, but this thread is about music for Mass.
2. Agreed. Every Mass should be orthodox. I was referring to what many parishes call “Traditional” vice “Contemporary” or “Youth” Masses. I’ve personally never been in the latter that wasn’t orthodox (per the Roman Missal).
3. By no means do I defend “wacko” actions of liberal priests & nuns, who received their training in the 60/70’s. May God have mercy, especially on those who empower the pro-death march in our society.
   Its interesting how a good number of the new Priests & Nuns are from out of this country. I’ll make it a point to talk to them about contemporary music in the Mass. I’m very interested in what parts of the world the Church is thriving & what the Masses are like there.

I have every right to express my opinion on the subject of music in the Mass. If I do it in a uncharitable manner, I trust the moderators to correct me. I apologize if I offended you. It wasn’t my intent.

I 100% agree with your whole post!
Thank you for posting it. It cleared up some misconceptions made by me.

 

[clem456]

Our new music coordinator for the Sunday evening Mass brought in this song youtube.com/watch?v=VmC44K0xQLE along with a full drum set to play music on. What do you think.
He is very fond of taking top 20 Christian worship songs and putting them in Mass.
here are the lyrics.

What do you all think?

It is not a specifically Catholic song, but it is not un-Catholic. If it were my decision this song would not be sung at anytime other than gathering or dimissal, or before or after Mass. The words don’t support usage at offertory or Communion.

We also have a parish with 6 different Masses and 4 basic cultural styles of Music:

European traditional with organ and choir

modern American with piano, upright bass, guitar, flute, four voices, (a more contemplative modern);

modern uptempo with high school players doing songs from Jesse Manibusan etc, with drum kits etc, nothing electric though;

and the Hispanic, which can be quiet guitars and bass, or on Gualalupe it is 10 or so drums, tambourines, shakers, native costumes, trumpets!! ( it is an awesome Mass to participate in but some of you would have a stroke).

My son when he was 17 was asked to attend a youth Mass in a barn. He had no interest in going. He is a percusssionist, so he was then asked if he would play for the Mass, He brought his drum kit and it was a good experience for him. The music can help people absorb and integrate what’s going on at the Mass. For ex…a person from Africa probably doesn’t identify with a Western European style of liturgy. But God is present in their culture just as he is in others, so the culture should be used at Mass.

 

[clem456]

I think conventional wisdom is pointing to the opposite. The experimentation with the Mass that happened in the last 40 years is waning. And it is no coincidence that the “exodus” you speak of is linked to the “outside of the box” gimmicks that have been proven failures.
The Mass and orthodoxy always has been and always will be sufficient.

I told myself I wan’t going to get involved in another one of these but here goes:

In thread after thread, this idea and a related one are the stepping off point for arguments. Here we have the implication that the liturgical practices of the Catholic Church are responsible for apostasy, disbelief, and falling away to other religions. And the related absurdity that if the Church would just go back to the 1950’s style of Mass, we wouldn’t have all the breadth of evils that present themselves “in the modern age” As if these evils have not existed in the human heart since the beginning of time!
This idea completely misrepresents the nature of the Church as guided by the Holy Spirit, and reduces it to a free-for-all debating society that is somehow beiing swayed by the whims of evil liberals, or evil conservatives. Have some Hope and Trust for God’s sake!

This idea also detracts from the responsibility that every human of every age bears to worship God -as that worship is practiced in the Church- and integrate that Mass into their daily lives, guided by the Church. This responsibility is not simply or solely founded on liturgical languages and practices and musical style, but on a living faith in Jesus Christ.

In a sense, the well intended desire for traditional things can actually become a denial of the real power at work, Jesus Christ through the Mass. Christ saves souls, not latin, not the organ. Drum kits at Mass do not change the reality of Mass.

I have an older sibling that grew up in our very Catholic family, with a very Catholic Latin Mass with cott and all the trimmings. Today she not only has fallen away, she cannot stand the Catholic Church. She hates it. by the logic above, we could blame traditional practice for all of that, as well as the world wars and all the rest. But that would be absurd. The reality is she was ring-slapped once too many times by angry nuns. She was never able to integrate the faith into her life.
In the end, this is all her choice, let’s not put the blame for her “exodus” on the Latin Mass or the pipe organ, that would be absurd.

 

[Moore11]

It is not a specifically Catholic song, but it is not un-Catholic. If it were my decision this song would not be sung at anytime other than gathering or dimissal, or before or after Mass. The words don’t support usage at offertory or Communion.

We also have a parish with 6 different Masses and 4 basic cultural styles of Music:

European traditional with organ and choir

modern American with piano, upright bass, guitar, flute, four voices, (a more contemplative modern);

modern uptempo with high school players doing songs from Jesse Manibusan etc, with drum kits etc, nothing electric though;

and the Hispanic, which can be quiet guitars and bass, or on Gualalupe it is 10 or so drums, tambourines, shakers, native costumes, trumpets!! ( it is an awesome Mass to participate in but some of you would have a stroke).

My son when he was 17 was asked to attend a youth Mass in a barn. He had no interest in going. He is a percusssionist, so he was then asked if he would play for the Mass, He brought his drum kit and it was a good experience for him. The music can help people absorb and integrate what’s going on at the Mass. For ex…a person from Africa probably doesn’t identify with a Western European style of liturgy. But God is present in their culture just as he is in others, so the culture should be used at Mass.

Very similar to our parish. I don’t know about the cultural thing though. What “culture” do we have? Americana? Rap? Metal? Rock? Country? Contemporary Christian, Metal Christian? See, when the Church allows for cultural music I think they are talking about distinct cultures. Asia has a distinct culture, history and musical sound, so does Africa. In these areas the Music is a part of everyone’s life. But the Church allows for these special instraments and styles as part of a bigger heritage and culture. We dont really have that (unless you want native American dances at Mass.) in Asia we should not advocate techno, music in Mass just because that is what many radio stations are playing over there. In America it is even MORE complicated, a small small percentage listen to Contemproary Christian, an even smaller to 1960’s guitar in the park hippie music. So we must ask ourselves: What should our “culture” be at Mass? And I think the answer is “Catholic” our culture should come from our heritage as Catholics, not from protestant top 20 music artists.

Also one thing that I really think detracts from the Mass is this idea that we need to have a Mass to cater to every niche.
At our Parish we have a 5 PM Sat, 8 AM sun, 10 AM sun 1130 AM Sun 1 PM Sun and 5 PM sun. Each Mass has a different theme or gimmick. One Mass with an organ, one with a contemporary choir, one with a cantor, one with a rock band, one with Spanish music and liturgy. occasionally we have a Polish Mass or a Basque Mass. But guess what, no EF within 5 hours and even then only once a month. There are a half million people between me and an EF. But if I want to go to a Polish or Basque mass, I can.
the other problem is that with all these Masses it divides us as a Parish, and even diocese. We are not “universal” but rather cliqueish. Each Mass is half full and we are trying so hard to find our own flavor that we lose any idea of oneness or “Culture” all together. How about a reverent, Rubrics following OF and a Reverent Rubrics following EF with a Spanish Mass thrown in the many Hispanic residents? What would be so wrong about that? my guess, is that attendance would be more constant and higher.
Our Parish conducted a census recently, for over a month at every Mass everyone was encouraged to fill out a small piece of paper. Last I heard, we had a 15% rate of completion by all registered families, and while that number is not final or even accurate it is alarming. 85% of people at our Parish either do not go to Mass enough to hear about the census, or have switched parishes, or have left the faith, or just dont care enough to fill our the form.
That does not sound like the type of Parish that is seeing encouraging results with the idea of trying to cater and experiment with every niche. Does it?
I hope I am never part of the 85% but it could be possible.

 

[clem456]

Very similar to our parish. I don’t know about the cultural thing though. What “culture” do we have? Americana? Rap? Metal? Rock? Country? Contemporary Christian, Metal Christian? See, when the Church allows for cultural music I think they are talking about distinct cultures. Asia has a distinct culture, history and musical sound, so does Africa. In these areas the Music is a part of everyone’s life. But the Church allows for these special instraments and styles as part of a bigger heritage and culture. We dont really have that (unless you want native American dances at Mass.) in Asia we should not advocate techno, music in Mass just because that is what many radio stations are playing over there. In America it is even MORE complicated, a small small percentage listen to Contemproary Christian, an even smaller to 1960’s guitar in the park hippie music. So we must ask ourselves: What should our “culture” be at Mass? And I think the answer is “Catholic” our culture should come from our heritage as Catholics, not from protestant top 20 music artists.

Also one thing that I really think detracts from the Mass is this idea that we need to have a Mass to cater to every niche.
At our Parish we have a 5 PM Sat, 8 AM sun, 10 AM sun 1130 AM Sun 1 PM Sun and 5 PM sun. Each Mass has a different theme or gimmick. One Mass with an organ, one with a contemporary choir, one with a cantor, one with a rock band, one with Spanish music and liturgy. occasionally we have a Polish Mass or a Basque Mass. But guess what, no EF within 5 hours and even then only once a month. There are a half million people between me and an EF. But if I want to go to a Polish or Basque mass, I can.
the other problem is that with all these Masses it divides us as a Parish, and even diocese. We are not “universal” but rather cliqueish. Each Mass is half full and we are trying so hard to find our own flavor that we lose any idea of oneness or “Culture” all together. How about a reverent, Rubrics following OF and a Reverent Rubrics following EF with a Spanish Mass thrown in the many Hispanic residents? What would be so wrong about that? my guess, is that attendance would be more constant and higher.
Our Parish conducted a census recently, for over a month at every Mass everyone was encouraged to fill out a small piece of paper. Last I heard, we had a 15% rate of completion by all registered families, and while that number is not final or even accurate it is alarming. 85% of people at our Parish either do not go to Mass enough to hear about the census, or have switched parishes, or have left the faith, or just dont care enough to fill our the form.
That does not sound like the type of Parish that is seeing encouraging results with the idea of trying to cater and experiment with every niche. Does it?
I hope I am never part of the 85% but it could be possible.

We have about 33% attendance of “Catholics”. Of those about half contribute money or fill out papers like you say.

It is good to have Masses that “cater” for lack of a better word, to the Hispanic culture for example. This is how they express themselves, how they speak and worship. Using the culture helps bring more of them to the faith. And no doubt there are people who are thirsting for very traditionaly European style Masses also. We could help them solidify their faith with more of that. I think it is good (well, more accurately the Church thinks…) it is good to provide various peoples with Masses that are done in the context of the culture they understand. We need converts to Catholicism, there is important work to be done. Cutlure is a tool, a hammer if you will, the Church uses the culture to drive home the faith. Sorry for the poor analogy.

 

[Moore11]

I told myself I wan’t going to get involved in another one of these but here goes:

In thread after thread, this idea and a related one are the stepping off point for arguments. Here we have the implication that the liturgical practices of the Catholic Church are responsible for apostasy, disbelief, and falling away to other religions. And the related absurdity that if the Church would just go back to the 1950’s style of Mass, we wouldn’t have all the breadth of evils that present themselves “in the modern age” As if these evils have not existed in the human heart since the beginning of time!
This idea completely misrepresents the nature of the Church as guided by the Holy Spirit, and reduces it to a free-for-all debating society that is somehow beiing swayed by the whims of evil liberals, or evil conservatives. Have some Hope and Trust for God’s sake!

This idea also detracts from the responsibility that every human of every age bears to worship God -as that worship is practiced in the Church- and integrate that Mass into their daily lives, guided by the Church. This responsibility is not simply or solely founded on liturgical languages and practices and musical style, but on a living faith in Jesus Christ.

In a sense, the well intended desire for traditional things can actually become a denial of the real power at work, Jesus Christ through the Mass. Christ saves souls, not latin, not the organ. Drum kits at Mass do not change the reality of Mass.

I have an older sibling that grew up in our very Catholic family, with a very Catholic Latin Mass with cott and all the trimmings. Today she not only has fallen away, she cannot stand the Catholic Church. She hates it. by the logic above, we could blame traditional practice for all of that, as well as the world wars and all the rest. But that would be absurd. The reality is she was ring-slapped once too many times by angry nuns. She was never able to integrate the faith into her life.
In the end, this is all her choice, let’s not put the blame for her “exodus” on the Latin Mass or the pipe organ, that would be absurd.

you know I agree with most of that. I think you are right, no nostalgia or flavor is going to do the job. But I also think that when we are at Mass if the Pope was sitting in the last row, we should not be ashamed of what we are doing. And while we might justify all sorts of things to ourselves because we like some certain thing we should look to the Church for guidance. There is a parallel to confession.
As Catholics one of the things that is so beneficial about confession is the ability to examine our conscience and then take these things to a confessional. A protestant also examines but does not have the other person to help so he can justify and excuse sins away. It is just human nature. But we, in the confessional have not just the advocate of the priest as a human but also as Jesus Himself, to help us, to act as a check an balance so we are not as likely to fall into the evil of justification or excusing sins away. That is not to say it does not happen but rather there is an extra defense against this failing.

The same should be looked at for Mass. We all have our “ideas” about what is right and what is “better” but we also have others to help us. The Pope, the Tradition, the Fathers, the Saints, and the Law. The Law and the rubrics that are twisted, ignored, and unstudied. I have been to many different Masses, in many different places. I have lived in 4 diocese. I have been to Mass in Italy, the Vatican, the east coast, the south, the west, mexico, and other places. I find that in many places, while there may be a funky Mass or Parish here or there, there is usually a balance to that Parish or Mass. Not so where I live. City wide one parish has the same issues as the other. And that is frustrating. On CAF I am so often jealous of posters who live in a vibrant lively orthodox diocese. Even if there is some of the “youth Mass” type of atmosphere it is done pretty well. I love my priests. I love all of the people at Mass, I love my Bishop, We owe everything to our Shepards and they are standing up in the public square to defend life for US. So in the scheme of things I should not let it bother me but that does not change the frustration and sadness that I sometimes feel.
Hopefully you will recognize that I am not advocating a return to 1950s but rather just noticing a hole in my own heart and in some hearts around me.

 

[Moore11]

We have about 33% attendance of “Catholics”. Of those about half contribute money or fill out papers like you say.

It is good to have Masses that “cater” for lack of a better word, to the Hispanic culture for example. This is how they express themselves, how they speak and worship. Using the culture helps bring more of them to the faith. And no doubt there are people who are thirsting for very traditionaly European style Masses also. We could help them solidify their faith with more of that. I think it is good (well, more accurately the Church thinks…) it is good to provide various peoples with Masses that are done in the context of the culture they understand. We need converts to Catholicism, there is important work to be done. Cutlure is a tool, a hammer if you will, the Church uses the culture to drive home the faith. Sorry for the poor analogy.

Oh, I think you are correct. I think you and I are thinking along the same lines and while there may be tiny differences about what we like we probably would sit at a Mass together and be offended at the same things and pleased by the same things. But I also think that our Parishes could be different as well. I dont know what yours is like and vice versa. One the whole I agree, there is room for culture (whatever that is) but you have to see that sometimes that is abused and used to the whims of a few. If you have never experienced that, then I am moving to your town!