God in timelss state cannot know what is the current time

[runningdude]

I agree with this definition but still God in state of timeless cannot perform any extra action except creation as it is stated before unless we accept that God is in state of time. This is logical since God knowledge of our actions is subject of time.

You seem to narrowly define “state of time” and “state of timelessness” with only the goal to prove that God cannot interact with creation.

Your argument is structured such that your conclusion must be true based on these conditions. The argument is technically a “valid argument”; however to prove that the thesis correct, you must substantiate the conditions.

If X, then Y. You must now prove X.

 

[vz71]

God in state of timeless cannot.

Yeah, we have all heard you say this many times.
Prove it.

 

[vz71]

The only real thing is the experiencing events at the spot where we call it present.

Prove it.

 

[Bahman]

Then is time mind-dependent? If it -is- mind-dependent, then “what is the current time” is just a fiction of ours, and would certainly not be known by God because of its falsehood.

It is minds and Mind dependent. It is minds dependent since we experience changes, it is Mind dependent since changes occurs in Mind. The focal point between existence of Mind and mind is our bodies.

Why are you defending a tensed theory of time, if you think time is just a concept?

I am not defending time, but events as only sole reality.

If you’re trying to defend a tensed theory of time, then there are no “events that flow in a certain order.” Things are either real (in the present,) or unreal (in the past or future,) but there’s no real progression, exactly. It’s just one event that changes.

The events flow in certain order inside Mind based on laws of nature most importantly second law of thermodynamics. You can read more here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_%28arrow_of_time%29. We can never distinguish whether what we are facing, is one event changing or series of events flow in certain order. This depends on how Mind and minds function.

In fact, it’s very hard to see, on the tensed theory, how the past could be causally-related to the present, since on the tensed theory, the present exists and the past doesn’t even have -potential- existence, the way the future does. If something doesn’t exist, it can have no causal powers.

It is not hard to see that hence Mind has supreme memory of what happened in the past and that memory act as potential to bring new events/current state event to existence. Our minds do disturb the memory of Mind when an action is required which leads to new existence depending on state of our minds.

Not at all. Timelessness is -larger- than time, not -smaller.-

It has to be smaller since it give bigger liberty, performing creation.

Therefore, while a timeless being wouldn’t -experience- change, they would be able to perceive all of the separate stages of that change, and those events, as though they were a series of images in a roll of film, strung up on a wall. However, -how- this would actually play out, or what the experience would be like is unknown.

In another word experiencing absolute chaos since otherwise one frame of the film has preference over another and cause a change in state of timeless.

There are many different possible models, and without firsthand experience of timelessness, we can have no relevant evidence for which one is correct, unless you think we can reason to it through further syllogisms.

I however think that God is in state of time after creation. I didn’t understand why the change in state of mind of God leads to infinite regression.

 

[Bahman]

Yeah, we have all heard you say this many times.
Prove it.

So I repeat the argument again : Consecutive actions define a sequence of events/time in state of timeless which is not allowed since one cannot simply have time/changes in state of timeless since state of timeless is state of no time no changes.

 

[Bahman]

The only real thing is the experiencing events at the spot where we call it present.

You cannot deny that we experience? What is experienced is related to something outside our minds so called events. “Now”, by definition is the point at which we experience new events.

 

[Bahman]

You seem to narrowly define “state of time” and “state of timelessness” with only the goal to prove that God cannot interact with creation.

The state timeless is not narrowly defined, it is defined as it is, namely a state in which no change can occur in it.

Your argument is structured such that your conclusion must be true based on these conditions. The argument is technically a “valid argument”; however to prove that the thesis correct, you must substantiate the conditions.

Based on the above definition of timeless state, one can conclude that only one action is permissible within this mind state since the second action define a sequence of events hence time which is logically impossible. The state of timeless ends once the first action is performed since an action require a change in state of mind. What happen for state of mind after creation is subject of discussion.

 

[Bahman]

We never asserted that God was disordered and did the logically impossible. If He did so, one would never conclude the existence of God in a rationally inteligible and ordered world. Besides, if we’re resorting to logic to conclude the existence of God, we cannot resort to logical absurdities to try and determine a logical impossibility.

Can I conclude that your existence is logically impossible if your qualities, at a certain point, reached any point of conflict? I thought not…

1. God exist and 2) God create creation in state of timeless, are our assumptions. This however leads to a consequence whether we like it or not that God can only perform one action in the timeless state which was creation following logic and definition timeless state. There is no logical absurdities anywhere. You can start with different assumptions then follow the logic and that leads to different conclusion.

 

[davidv]

1. God exist and 2) God create creation in state of timeless, are our assumptions. This however leads to a consequence whether we like it or not that God can only perform one action in the timeless state which was creation following logic and definition timeless state. There is no logical absurdities anywhere. You can start with different assumptions then follow the logic and that leads to different conclusion.

You have not yet demonstrated the assumption 2) is true.

 

[JerryZ]

So I repeat the argument again : Consecutive actions define a sequence of events/time in state of timeless which is not allowed since one cannot simply have time/changes in state of timeless since state of timeless is state of no time no changes.

I believe I have understood where is your mistake in your assumptions.

You are equating God’s creation of the Universe with physical actions that define your concept of time.
You state that time is defined as a sequence of events or consecutive actions.
The problem with assumption is that it describes the “effects” of time but are by no means the totality of the explanation of time.
Phycisists have yet to prove what is the real nature of time, some argue it is a dimension, tightly bound with the other 3 we live in and have come up with the phrase “time-space continuum” but the jury has not pronounced a verdict yet.

God did not pull the Universe out of His hat like a magician.
You are thinking like God was a physical being, He moved His arms and created the Universe.
This is a problem because you are attributing time events to a timeless being.
He is not bound by materiality (since there is NO matter) or time constraints.
We are told by the Church that God “willed” the Creation of the Universe and IT was Created.
Once the Universe was created and the sequences of events within it started to happen time began also WITHIN it. Time is bound INSIDE the Universe.
Whatever happens inside the Universe have no effects on God.
But it’s CREATOR can do what He pleases.
GOD was NEVER inside the Universe. He created it, the Universe is HIS idea.
In a sense we could say that the Universe is INSIDE the mind of God.
How can you limit what someone can do with an idea that belongs to his creator.

–

 

[vz71]

You cannot deny that we experience? What is experienced is related to something outside our minds so called events. “Now”, by definition is the point at which we experience new events.

That you experience reality does not mean that there is reality that you do not experience.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

In the letter to the Ephesians, Paul has this to say:

And [Christ] gave some as Apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the Body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ(Eph 4:11-15)

From Fr. Charles Pope

Linus2nd

 

[ServantPD]

1. God exist and 2) God create creation in state of timeless, are our assumptions. This however leads to a consequence whether we like it or not that God can only perform one action in the timeless state which was creation following logic and definition timeless state. There is no logical absurdities anywhere. You can start with different assumptions then follow the logic and that leads to different conclusion.

Well, I see the problem in your assertion. I’m guessing you’ve got assumption #2 wrong…

God knows the different outcomes that may come from all the different choice human beings have by default due to their free will. As He doesn’t intervene in our direct will, He may know everything that may happen, but as the universe (as I’ve said before) isn’t completley deterministic and many things are oberver-dependent, God doesn’t have a single outcome for the future, but virtually infinite outcomes, bound to our free will.

That doesn’t challenge His omniscience at all; He knows what outcomes may come from the present world, but He lets the things happen and eliminate the different possibilities until the one outcome that came became present. And this doesn’t make Him bound by time either, as He knows both past, present and all possible futures.

 

[Bahman]

You have not yet demonstrated the assumption 2) is true.

First that is just assumption, you don’t need to prove assumption similar to assumption that God exists.

Second you could say that you don’t agree with this assumption because of the conclusion which means we have to accept that God created creation in state of time/changes. The second assumption however leads to another problem that how God could be is state of changes/time before creation is performed considering the fact that God is complete so its sole existence is not subject of changes so no time. As you see there is no way to escape from the concept of timeless in the beginning.

 

[Bahman]

That you experience reality does not mean that there is reality that you do not experience.

What this has to do with our arguments? There could be reality that we don’t experience but we were arguing about the definition of nowness and the fact that it is related to what we experience at the spot.

 

[Bahman]

Well, I see the problem in your assertion. I’m guessing you’ve got assumption #2 wrong…

You mean that God does created creation in state of time? Please read post #253.

God knows the different outcomes that may come from all the different choice human beings have by default due to their free will. As He doesn’t intervene in our direct will, He may know everything that may happen, but as the universe (as I’ve said before) isn’t completley deterministic and many things are oberver-dependent, God doesn’t have a single outcome for the future, but virtually infinite outcomes, bound to our free will.

First, this statement means that God does not know the truth since the truth depends our actions.

Second, you enlarge definition of omniscience so much that it is not omniscience any more since it does not tell anyone about the state of truth, namely what is going to happen.

That doesn’t challenge His omniscience at all; He knows what outcomes may come from the present world, but He lets the things happen and eliminate the different possibilities until the one outcome that came became present. And this doesn’t make Him bound by time either, as He knows both past, present and all possible futures.

It does challenge omniscience since omniscience is the state of knowledge of truth, and truth is what is going to happen (not infinite possibilities), God action will change the course of universe hence leading to different omniscience, hence God action is not permissible.

 

[Bahman]

I believe I have understood where is your mistake in your assumptions.

You are equating God’s creation of the Universe with physical actions that define your concept of time.
You state that time is defined as a sequence of events or consecutive actions.
The problem with assumption is that it describes the “effects” of time but are by no means the totality of the explanation of time.
Phycisists have yet to prove what is the real nature of time, some argue it is a dimension, tightly bound with the other 3 we live in and have come up with the phrase “time-space continuum” but the jury has not pronounced a verdict yet.

God did not pull the Universe out of His hat like a magician.
You are thinking like God was a physical being, He moved His arms and created the Universe.
This is a problem because you are attributing time events to a timeless being.
He is not bound by materiality (since there is NO matter) or time constraints.
We are told by the Church that God “willed” the Creation of the Universe and IT was Created.
Once the Universe was created and the sequences of events within it started to happen time began also WITHIN it. Time is bound INSIDE the Universe.
Whatever happens inside the Universe have no effects on God.
But it’s CREATOR can do what He pleases.
GOD was NEVER inside the Universe. He created it, the Universe is HIS idea.
In a sense we could say that the Universe is INSIDE the mind of God.
How can you limit what someone can do with an idea that belongs to his creator.

–

Something must happened in that state of timeless as a cause for creation of universe which you cannot deny that, you can call it God’s will or action etc. This means change in state of timeless and once this happens, the state of timeless is gone so second action from that state cannot be performed from this state.

In reality you cannot even have two states first God and then God and creation since that define a sequence as well so the act creation and God existence lies at the same point, which means that creation is as eternal as God, and then state of timeless is seized by nothingness so God is either in state of time/changes or dead.

 

[Bahman]

In the letter to the Ephesians, Paul has this to say:

And [Christ] gave some as Apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the Body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ(Eph 4:11-15)

From Fr. Charles Pope

Linus2nd

Hi my friend , are you trying to preach me!?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hi my friend , are you trying to preach me!?

No. I am reminding others that you are attempting to spread error among the faithful. I have the right and duty to do that when it seems called for.

Linus2nd

 

[ServantPD]

You mean that God does created creation in state of time? Please read post #253.

First, this statement means that God does not know the truth since the truth depends our actions.

Second, you enlarge definition of omniscience so much that it is not omniscience any more since it does not tell anyone about the state of truth, namely what is going to happen.

It does challenge omniscience since omniscience is the state of knowledge of truth, and truth is what is going to happen (not infinite possibilities), God action will change the course of universe hence leading to different omniscience, hence God action is not permissible.

Post #253 isn’t very correct. The existence of God comes from a logical inference, which doesn’t make it an assumption, but a deductive assertion.

Second, I’m not enlarging omniscience - you’re the one restricting it. If it is true that one of the infinite possibilities that God knows accurately and instantly, will happen, and He’ll know which one is most likely to happen and can intervene for the possitibility He wants to happen to come, you can’t say He’s not omnipotent or omniscient, or that having these properties is logically impossible. They simply fit right with what I’m saying, and I’m neither enlarging nor restricting any property He has. He still has the power on all things, and He knows all things (including everything that could happen).

It does challenge omniscience since omniscience is the state of knowledge of truth, and truth is what is going to happen (not infinite possibilities)

You better have some argument backing up that definition of truth, because that’s not exactly right. If He knows all possibilities that may happen, His omniscience is true. If these possibilities are accurate and He knows one of them will happen, you can’t say His knowledge of truth is false, nor His omniscience.