God is indifferent

[Beryllos]

Sorry, I am not interested in the opinion of children and the mentally retarded.

You seem to have missed my point. In comparison to God, truly we are like children. Even more truly we are, as you suggested, like the mentally retarded. As such, how can we know what is best for us?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I did not mention “obligation”. A father may not have an obligation to care for his children, but if he does not care for them, we would declare him a deadbeat dad.

Actually, a father does have an obligation to care for their children. However, with this, you are still making the assumption that not making life perfect is equivalent to not caring for us, which is simply not true; or at the very least not provable.

We always make judgment based upon our limited knowledge. And there is no problem with it. If you say that I am not qualified to utter a negative judgment based upon my incomplete knowledge, then you are also not qualified to utter a positive judgment, since you are exactly as ignorant as I am…

The difference is, I’m not making a judgment. I believe God has a positive reason for allowing whatever evils are allowed, that is my personal position. It’s a neutral position. You, on the other hand, are making the active claim that it is wrong for God to not intervene, making him either evil, or indifferent.

Sorry, that does not wash. God is free and welcome to come down and explain his (non-)actions. But since he does not, it remains incumbent upon you (the apologists in general) to speak for him. But all you can say is “perhaps” and “maybe”. And that is not sufficient.

You haven’t given any reason that God should explain himself. You also haven’t given any reason that his lack of explanation is not sufficient. You are making assertions, not arguments.

It is obvious what “good” is. Useful, beneficial, pleasurable, enjoyable, satisfying, etc… are its synonyms. Something that promotes life and its quality. “Bad” is the opposite.

Obviously it’s not obvious, because there’s so much debate about it.

What you believe is good is obvious for you, but that doesn’t make it obvious to anyone else. I know people who believe it’s good to murder children in the womb, or even after birth up till about a year old. I believe this to be bad. If good and bad are subjective, then neither of us is right, and you’re once again left with no reason to be upset that God doesn’t act.

Also, I don’t think you know what good means. Being useful isn’t necessarily good. I may find it useful to drive like a maniac and get to where I want to go faster, but that doesn’t make it good. Being beneficial isn’t necessarily good either. It would be beneficial to a vast number of people to break into someone’s house and steal all their money; that doesn’t make it good. Pleasurable, likewise, is not synonymous with good. I may derive pleasure from having sex with a minor; and the minor may also derive pleasure from it. That doesn’t make it good that I’m doing that. Anything that is enjoyable or satisfying can be addressed with the same example. None of those words are synonyms with good, and many of them can just as easily result in bad outcomes and decisions.

Regardless, you didn’t actually address the core of my argument, which is that if there is no objective good and bad, you have no reason to fault God for not reacting to something you personally perceive as bad, because to Him it might not be bad.

If there is an objective measure for good and bad, then it’s possible that your limited scope of knowledge results in you being unable to see the good that will result from something you personally perceive as bad. This means that your pronouncement that God’s lack of reaction is equivalent to indifference could also be mistaken.

Also, all of this ignores God’s continued presence and intervention in human history; culminating in the sacrifice of Christ. If that can’t prove God’s love to you, I don’t think any amount of philosophical discussion would be able to. You can’t acknowledge God’s existence in order to attack Him, and then turn around and ignore His presence in human history. That’s intellectually dishonest.

Either way, I have to bow out of the discussion. I have to much to do to continue devoting this much time to responding.

 

[goout]

Love is part of the physical reality.

Prove that love is part of the physical reality.
With evidence and references please.
I’ll take a long LONG vacation while you attempt that…

I would not place fairy tales into the bag of “evidence”.

Can you see that you contradict yourself?
You do want to use your reason fully, right?
Let’s do that.

 

[MPat]

To both Randy and David: Not what I think. What those words MEAN. If doing “X” is good when God does it, and it is evil when humans do it, then “good” and “evil” are meaningless concepts. The statue of Justitia (the goddess of Justice) is depicted with a blindfold. “Who” does it is irrelevant, “what” is being done is important.

There is a basic incompatibility between our assessments. You want to use a different measuring rod when you speak of humans and of God. That is not acceptable, and it seems to be the number one obstacle to having a conversation between believers and skeptics.

But the same actions are often judged good or bad depending on who does them. For example, going into your house, taking your computer and going away with it is perfectly OK when you do it and theft when a random stranger does it.

“Perhaps” and “maybe” are not arguments.

Overconfidence is not an argument either.

We always make judgment based upon our limited knowledge. And there is no problem with it. If you say that I am not qualified to utter a negative judgment based upon my incomplete knowledge, then you are also not qualified to utter a positive judgment, since you are exactly as ignorant as I am…

That hasn’t been proved.

It is obvious what “good” is. Useful, beneficial, pleasurable, enjoyable, satisfying, etc… are its synonyms. Something that promotes life and its quality. “Bad” is the opposite.

So, you are not offering any way to actually measure “good” or “bad”?

I would not place fairy tales into the bag of “evidence”.

You know, “I would not” is not any more of an argument than “maybe” or “perhaps”.

Sorry, that does not wash. God is free and welcome to come down and explain his (non-)actions. But since he does not, it remains incumbent upon you (the apologists in general) to speak for him. But all you can say is “perhaps” and “maybe”. And that is not sufficient.

“*t remains incumbent”? Really? Is there any reason why anyone - God or apologist - has a duty to give an account to you?

You know, when your questions end up looking like orders you are not entitled to give, maybe it is not surprising that you get no answers (or no answers you are happy with)…*

 

[Beryllos]

Either way, I have to bow out of the discussion. I have to much to do to continue devoting this much time to responding.

Hold the door! I’m right behind you.
View attachment 23680

 

[Roseeurekacross]

God is not indifferent to me.
But then, I am not indifferent to God. He is my best friend, my Lord, my will.

Again, since I feel the need to repeat this:

Vera Ljuba
Many have gone before you, and many will go after you, who pray to God to manifest Himself.
The problem is…how many have enough faith and trust, to be still enough to await and recognise any answer?
I can ask for water in a desert all day long, but if I dont pick up a shovel and work to dig out the bore, it is my fault I died of thirst.

Why do you believe God is indifferent to you?

Also, How did you go from turning your Hypothesis into the theory you then proposed in sentence 2 of your OP?

I am ecstatic you went from God is your hypothesis in your first sentence, to God is your theory ( thus indicating you had tested your own hypothesis ’ I Am’ to your theory, ’ I Am’).

But for us following along at home, you failed to fill in how that occured.

I await a spirited reply

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I think it is good to remember this Chinese proverb:

"There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer’s neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, “Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?” A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”

Then, when the farmer’s son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, “Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?”

Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer’s son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck?

Who knows?

Everything that seems on the surface to be an evil may be a good in disguise. And everything that seems good on the surface may really be an evil. So we are wise when we leave it to God to decide what is good fortune and what misfortune, and thank him that all things turn out for good with those who love him."

The last sentence is, of course, nonsense. You can love God and still have bad things happen to you. Of course things don’t always turn out for the best. For example, people who run around “comforting” people who have just lost their jobs by saying “It’s all for the best” or “It will all turn out in the end” are beneath contempt. You don’t know how things will turn out, and you can’t just sit back and hope for the best. You have to take responsibility. But the point of the Chinese story is that you just don’t know.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

God is not indifferent to me.
But then, I am not indifferent to God. He is my best friend, my Lord, my will.

Again, since I feel the need to repeat this:

Vera Ljuba
Many have gone before you, and many will go after you, who pray to God to manifest Himself.
The problem is…how many have enough faith and trust, to be still enough to await and recognise any answer?
I can ask for water in a desert all day long, but if I dont pick up a shovel and work to dig out the bore, it is my fault I died of thirst.

Why do you believe God is indifferent to you?

Also, How did you go from turning your Hypothesis into the theory you then proposed in sentence 2 of your OP?

I am ecstatic you went from God is your hypothesis in your first sentence, to God is your theory ( thus indicating you had tested your own hypothesis ’ I Am’ to your theory, ’ I Am’).

But for us following along at home, you failed to fill in how that occured.

I await a spirited reply

I think you misunderstand. It is not just that I feel indifferently toward God, it is that God does not SEEM to care about me (and you, and everyone else). When you are sick, God does not heal you - even if there is no one else to heal you. When you are hungry, God does not feed you - even if there is no one else to feed you. The usual objection is that WE are supposed to be God’s “hands”, that God “works through us”. But that is nonsense. Even if we do everything that we can, there are problems we simply CANNOT solve - and God does not give us a helping hand.

As for the process of how I (personally) changed, that cannot be answered in a few sentences. Suffice it to say that every time I prayed, nothing happened. Every time I asked I was never answered. Every time I knocked on the door, it was never opened. It is as if I had set up a hypothesis that things will float upward, when I release them… and when I performed millions of tests, they always dropped to the ground. The hypothesis was simply untenable.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Who knows?

Everything that seems on the surface to be an evil may be a good in disguise. And everything that seems good on the surface may really be an evil. So we are wise when we leave it to God to decide what is good fortune and what misfortune, and thank him that all things turn out for good with those who love him."

The last sentence is, of course, nonsense. You can love God and still have bad things happen to you. Of course things don’t always turn out for the best. For example, people who run around “comforting” people who have just lost their jobs by saying “It’s all for the best” or “It will all turn out in the end” are beneath contempt. You don’t know how things will turn out, and you can’t just sit back and hope for the best. You have to take responsibility. But the point of the Chinese story is that you just don’t know.

The story is nice but no one lives according to its basic principle. If you see a rabid dog about to attack you, you do not “hope” that it is just a cute bunny waiting to be caressed. Of course we do not have “full” information, but that does not and should not prevent us from making a tentative judgment, which could be (and should be) re-assessed if and when new evidence becomes available.

I especially liked your highlighted sentence. I am very pleasantly surprised to see such a wise evaluation after being fed the usual nonsense by others.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

You seem to have missed my point. In comparison to God, truly we are like children. Even more truly we are, as you suggested, like the mentally retarded. As such, how can we know what is best for us?

Even a mindless beast will try to escape from a burning forest. A thirsty animal will choose to drink water, not sulphuric acid. It does not take a whole lot of intelligence to find out what is good and what is bad for us.

It is not whether we can be compared to God’s abilities and knowledge, it is that we have the ability to choose what is good for us and what is bad for us. Being tortured is not “good” for us.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I think you misunderstand. It is not just that I feel indifferently toward God, it is that God does not SEEM to care about me (and you, and everyone else). When you are sick, God does not heal you - even if there is no one else to heal you. When you are hungry, God does not feed you - even if there is no one else to feed you. The usual objection is that WE are supposed to be God’s “hands”, that God “works through us”. But that is nonsense. Even if we do everything that we can, there are problems we simply CANNOT solve - and God does not give us a helping hand.

As for the process of how I (personally) changed, that cannot be answered in a few sentences. Suffice it to say that every time I prayed, nothing happened. Every time I asked I was never answered. Every time I knocked on the door, it was never opened. It is as if I had set up a hypothesis that things will float upward, when I release them… and when I performed millions of tests, they always dropped to the ground. The hypothesis was simply untenable.

I have all the time in the world to read many sentences, so go for it.

Here is a challenge, start going through the door. Open it yourself. The fact you are here and we are having this conversation screams to me that the door you knocked on is ajar, and just hanging there waiting for the handle to be held, and the door pushed open. Enough said. He is waiting, you are here on a Catholic forum , talking to a bunch of Christians.
A few months back, I would never have taken the time to be on a Christian forum , let along a Catholic one. And I would have thought you all lunatics. Now everyone thinks I am a lunatic.

This is what I have learnt so far.
On God caring:
God cares , about everyone, even me, a sinner who ignored Him for decades. It is by His Grace , I started listening again, a few months ago. My life is so changed.
How do I know God cares? Its the little things. And here I will share a few things with you, because you asked.

On performing small miracles - In my part of Australia, its summer. All snake bites here kill, without anti venom. Sunday night, 9pm , walking my dogs on lead. My Belgian Shepherd jumped into me sideways, I ignored it, she did it again. Look down, brown snake at our feet. Mad dash into the AH Vet in town. All bloods came back normal. Very $$$ vet trip, and both of us totally surprised she had not been bitten. Brown snakes get very cranky, and flatten out , then strike faster then dogs jump out of the way. My ankles were in strike range too. All I can say is I had , as always, been praying the rosary on that walk.

On healing:
I have a chronic disease that will get worse with time, had it for years. Been to 2 Annointing Masses since returning to God a few months back, my symptoms have abated, especially the worst of them. I dont expect to be healed, afterall, it is ours to share the wounds and scars and suffering of Jesus Christ. I am thankful to be able to get out in summer now, and do my volunteer work. I pray for others I know with cancer, for healing, if it is God’s Will. Everything depends on God’s Will.

On hunger:
Yes, God has fed me, both physically , and spiritually. I, as do many other Catholics, and Christians, donate food and money to feed others.

On God working through us:
There is a real mystery. Do I know if the heart of a fellow human has been softened or moved to know Love and caring, or mercy, through my actions? No.
I do know if I house a homeless child, send him to school, pick up someone collapsed and get them help, defuse a violent situation, offer shelter and medical aide to wildlife caught in a predicament, give time to an aged person forgotten through life, hold a sick bag up to the mouth of a stranger,
maybe post some words that mean something to another, give courage to someone needing a little,
it aint all my own doing And we all do some small thing for others, even if its a smile.
Our priests say the way to have God work through you, is simply to provide a good example by the way you live your life.

On problems:
Life is full of them. In experiencing problems we grow our character. And perhaps start looking at things differently. I have issues that once were problems. But now, I try to live for God’s will in my life, not mine.
What does that mean? I might want a car that doesnt break down and gets me where I think I need to be. God’s Will might be I have no transport and walk. I might want money enough to eat a variety of food. God’s Will I be blessed with a few basics only. And to fast .
I cant solve Syria, you cant, but hey if we all pray , and support those trying to, physically, and spiritually, who knows.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Here is a challenge, start going through the door.

The door is just a poetic metaphor.

A few months back, I would never have taken the time to be on a Christian forum , let along a Catholic one. And I would have thought you all lunatics. Now everyone thinks I am a lunatic.

I would never call someone a lunatic. But I see a huge variance in your level of skepticism. When you are faced with a normal, everyday claim, or the claims made by adherents of another religion, you exhibit the same healthy skepticism as the non-believers do. But when it comes to the claims of your own religion, the skeptical attitude is discarded, you will swallow even the most outlandish claims.

Answering the other parts of your post: think about the millions of children who starve and suffer in Africa, because there is not enough rain to grow the necessary foods. There is no need for some spectacular “miracle”, only a little rain! Is that how a “loving, caring” God would behave? Only a malevolent or uncaring God would not help.

People say that they “prayed” and their malady they had was healed. What about the other millions, who also pray and nothing happens? There is the wonderful science of statistics. It is used to evaluate claims about the efficacy of new drugs. The same methods were used to test the efficacy of prayers. The result is simple: “prayers do NOT work”. You could pray to a beer bottle, and you would see the same result. No statistically significant result.

Be as it may, I wish you all the best.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

On Doors
Vatican Door of Mercy in 2016. Each Diocese also interred a Door of Mercy.
Anyone , regardless of belief, was free to walk through it.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/08/pope_francis_opens_holy_door_at_st_peters_basilica/1192816
“To pass through the Holy Door means to rediscover the infinite mercy of the Father who welcomes everyone and goes out personally to encounter each of them.”

And the words of Jesus
John 10:1-42

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” …

On skeptic:

1. Have I mentioned my views on the sea of Christianity?
   What outlandish claims do you say I specifically swallow?
2. Famine and drought.
   Does the global population have the resources to mitigate famine, drought or flood? Perhaps this is a better job for the UN. There is a thread on 8 people who own most of the wealth…

Humanity is starving and homeless in every country. Are we are ignoring those in our street? Running our farms?

So my question to you. What makes you believe God doesnt help?

1. On statistics
   statistically, Australian Sharks attack and eat more people on days that Ice cream consumption is higher. How to interpret that?
   On new drugs, their testing and release, take the recent Hendra vaccine.
   Hendra is passed from bats to horses to humans. It kills horses and humans. This disease has 2 potentials:
2. destroy the horse industry and all associated industries,
3. biological weapon.
   Swift research went into what Hendra is, how it travels and a vaccine. The trial included horses being infected and then potential vaccines administered till a workable combination was found. You can read about it on the CSIRO website. All animals were then destroyed.

Miracle verification
Australia’s Saint Mary of the Cross MacKillop. 2 miracle cures attributed to her, enhanced her Cannonisation. Solid medical records were required, examined, and verified both before and after the affliction of the diseases, and the cure. Medical experts verified the cure of the individual could not be attributed to modern medicine, and indeed could not be explained.

Yes people pray and are not healed, but yes people pray and are healed. There are examples, proven medical examples of both. People pray for all sorts of things. You know yourself.

But here is another question for you:

You believe your prayers go unanswered, and God doesnt hear you, ( I havent read that you dont believe in God, only that He isnt listening to you) how can you then make the great leap of faith that God ignores every prayer, of humanity, every thought, every cry? Can you speak for anyone else? If so, in what capacity?

Look, finally at Jesus Christ, who prayed to His Father throughout His Crucifixion. Jesus prayed the cup pass him by, of Crucifixion, if it was God’s Will. Did God respond, no worries mate, lets just hit humanity with the ugly stick, or smite it again?
2000 years ago people were being killed due to their faith of, and in prayers. Not much has changed, people are still being killed due to their faith of and in prayers.

What would you say to these people?
God Bless you and keep you

 

[petra22]

Then we disagree. When there is only one antidote and two sick people, we cannot cure both of them. This is reality. If God would be “good”, he could simply double the antidote, so that both people could be cured. If God would be “bad”, he could spoil the antidote so that neither could be cured. But God does not do either. The only rational analysis is that God (if exists at all) simply does not care.

It would be so nice if you all would stick to the topic of the thread. Not trying to present evidence for God’s existence, because that was already stipulated (for the purposes of this discussion) in the opening post.
The sun shines on the righteous and wicked alike. Some good people have good life, other good people have a horrible life. Some bad people have good life, other bad people have bad life.
A good God would lessen (or eliminate) the bad outcomes - that is what would make God “good”. An evil God would minimize (or eliminate) the good outcomes, that is what would make God “bad”. Why can’t you discuss these simple propositions?

I’m thinking you are not God and do not know the whole story about these two individuals that you say need curing. Perhaps God has dealt with these two people and one is ready, learning about God in the life experiences he has had and the other is just beginning. You should not judge that both should be cured when God is ready and has a place ready for one… Perhaps when the one person gets the cure and the other doesn’t the one who didn’t has a conversion. The one who got the cure looks around and says why me? why was I chosen to live? Like the one surviving soldier from a whole ship… God has a plan for each person individually. He is not unfeeling and not UN-involved…He is inside you in the life’s blood. You will meet him face to face one day.

 

[petra22]

Just want to offer a short prayer for the OP.

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

What outlandish claims do you say I specifically swallow?

If you need me to tell you, then you would not understand it. Not because you are intellectually unqualified, but because you have too much “invested” in your system.

Does the global population have the resources to mitigate famine, drought or flood?

No, it does not. It cannot prevent natural disasters, which slaughter people randomly. We try as we can to find cure for all sorts of diseases, and can chalk up a few successes. God could give us all the information to cure the other ones. But he does not.

So my question to you. What makes you believe God doesnt help?

There is no sign of help. How many children die because of famine? A little rain could prevent it.

Yes people pray and are not healed, but yes people pray and are healed.

How many? There is no positive correlation between prayer and healing.

You believe your prayers go unanswered, and God doesnt hear you, ( I havent read that you dont believe in God, only that He isnt listening to you) how can you then make the great leap of faith that God ignores every prayer, of humanity, every thought, every cry? Can you speak for anyone else? If so, in what capacity?

Of course I don’t believe in God, but I am willing to entertain it as a working hypothesis. I am willing to ponder the attributes that God allegedly has, like omnipotence, omniscience, omni-benevolence, and the rest. Most of them are simply logically nonsensical, and the rest is simply unsubstantiated claim.

A benevolent entity would never allow useless, meaningless, gratuitous suffering. If you wish to contend that every piece of suffering is logically necessary, if you say this is a best possible world, that there is no way to improve on it, then you need to argue for each and every one of them. No “maybe”, no “perhaps” are allowed as argument. You could start with the Holocaust.

God Bless you and keep you

Thank you.

 

[Qoeleth]

Let’s start with the hypothesis that God exists. Let’s also stipulate that God created the world, and he has the power and knowledge to make it whatever he wants.

Looking around the world as it is, we can conclude that God is neither benevolent, nor malevolent. There is both good and bad in the world. The sun shines both on the righteous and the wicked. The believers and the atheists both have their share of good and the bad. Worshipping God does you no good in this world. Not worshipping God does you no “bad” in this world. There is no correlation (and correlation generally does not imply causation) between the faith / behavior of the people and their “fortune” in this world. Good things happen to good people and to bad people. Bad things happen to good people and to bad people.

Of course some people will say that skeptics disregard the “continued” existence in some “afterlife” and to draw conclusion based upon this limited existence is unwarranted. Unfortunately there is absolutely no evidence for some “afterlife”, so it is irrational to take it into account. We can only draw conclusions based upon we experience.

Based upon this, observed world there is no sign which would point to a beneficial God, or a malevolent God. The only rational conclusion is that God is indifferent, if exists at all.

Yes- that’s true. If faith came from pure observation of this world, God would either not exist, or be at best indifferent (or maybe even evil!).

But, God revealed Himself through Jesus Christ- a loving, righteous and self-sacrificing person. So God is revealed in Christ not in the world.

As it says in the letter of John, “NOTHING this world has to offer could ever come from the Father.”

Also, the Gospel of John says the “Ruler of this World” is the devil (not God).

Yes, it’s a pretty bad world. At best. Actually it’s REALLY bad. Luckily, through the death and resurrection of Christ, we can escape this valley of tears, this prison of sin and folly, and enjoy the next life. “Those who sow in tears (in this world) will reap in joy (in the next world).”

But here’s something to think about- it seems inconceivable that only this wicked world would exist. There cannot be evil (this world), without a good counterbalancing it (the next world). Something good must exist, and it’s certainly not in this world. Therefore, God must exist.

 

[Qoeleth]

Yes- that’s true. If faith came from pure observation of this world, God would either not exist, or be at best indifferent (or maybe even evil!).

But, God revealed Himself through Jesus Christ- a loving, righteous and self-sacrificing person. So God is revealed in Christ not in the world.

As it says in the letter of John, “NOTHING this world has to offer could ever come from the Father.”

Also, the Gospel of John says the “Ruler of this World” is the devil (not God).

Yes, it’s a pretty bad world… at best. Actually it’s REALLY bad. Luckily, through the death and resurrection of Christ, we can escape this valley of tears, and enjoy the next life. “Those who sow in tears (in this world) will reap in joy (in the next world).”

But here’s something to think about- it seems inconceivable that only this wicked world would exist. There cannot be evil (this world), without a good counterbalancing it (the next world). Something good must exist, and it’s certainly not in this world. Therefore, God must exist.

The less evidence of goodness we see in this world, the more certain it is that the true good exists in God alone.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Yes- that’s true. If faith came from pure observation of this world, God would either not exist, or be at best indifferent (or maybe even evil!).

I am glad that we are ALMOST in agreement, so far. I do not agree with the “evil” adjective. There is a lot of good around us, and an evil, malevolent God would not allow that. If you read Harlan Ellison’s short story: “I have no mouth and I must scream” you could see what a truly evil “god” would do.

But, God revealed Himself through Jesus Christ- a loving, righteous and self-sacrificing person. So God is revealed in Christ not in the world.

As it says in the letter of John, “NOTHING this world has to offer could ever come from the Father.”

Also, the Gospel of John says the “Ruler of this World” is the devil (not God).

Yes, it’s a pretty bad world. At best. Actually it’s REALLY bad. Luckily, through the death and resurrection of Christ, we can escape this valley of tears, this prison of sin and folly, and enjoy the next life. “Those who sow in tears (in this world) will reap in joy (in the next world).”

That is not something any atheist can accept as accurate. And there is no explanation of “WHY” should we wait for the next world? Some people say that this world is just a test, so God can see who makes the grade, and who deserves the eternal flame and torture. Is God not “omniscient” any more? Some others might blame the “fall”, but that is ridiculous. It is a classic entrapment. A benevolent God simply would not put the temptation there. The “test” hypothesis reveals a huge contradiction in Christianity.

But here’s something to think about- it seems inconceivable that only this wicked world would exist. There cannot be evil (this world), without a good counterbalancing it (the next world). Something good must exist, and it’s certainly not in this world. Therefore, God must exist.

Sorry, this is merely wishful thinking: “Something good must exist”?

 

[Aloysium]

Let’s consider the holocaust.
Such are the actions of which we are capable.

While there are some who would see them as justified, these attitudes are abhorrent to all right-thinking people.
Mankind is not God, to determine what is good.
Known through our conscience, there is a moral order to the universe which constitutes God’s compassion, the one true judgement of what we do.

There have been other holocausts, usually those committed by the winning side or lost in the passage of time and civilizations, which if at all, are only dimly remembered by history.
As to whether any of it mattered, the suffering and injustice, finds its answer in whether or not all of this is swallowed by oblivion.
If the universe revolves around this one moment in which I write, gone by the time you read this, if it were all centred around the individual and the present in which he finds himself, if we were not participating in a greater, encompassing eternal order, all meaning would be wrenched from existence. Our yearning to matter, to make a difference, to leave a mark would amount to sublimations of fear.
And, that fear would be irrational, a vestige of our unicellular parentage, randomly occurring, and although necessary to the development of animal life on the planet, of no significance at all.
If the universe is uncaring, and it is, and if that were all there is, to care would be a futile search for something that would not exist; more than illusory, it would be delusional.

A million and a half give or take a quarter of a million people died in the battle at Stalingrad during the second world war.
The skulls that litter(ed) the area are more than just stones in a field. It does matter that they died and it matters what we do.
This is so because it matters to Him, He who created us, who subjected Himself to our will, and by His dying to our sin, which He took upon Himself freely and willingly, through His resurrection, as the one true Vine, He has enabled us all to transcend our fallen human nature.

It is possible for us to dwell in the state of being that is the antithesis of the holocaust and the evil which it clearly reveals.
The kingdom of God, the truth which is Love, is made obvious by its absence in such captured moments of history.
The wonder that is the creation of persons with free will and the capacity to give of themselves, uniting with what is other for its good, cannot but leave open the possibility of its nemesis, unleashed when an act runs counter to the goodness that underlies existence.
As hopeless as it may seem, humanity has been redeemed. We have been saved.