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Aloysium
Guest
How about if your boy friend, after you dump him, throws sulphuric acid in your face to prevent you from seeing other men? Bad for you, for sure; but, he gets revenge for the hurt he feels you have caused him. On what aspect of reality do we base our determination that his actions are bad?
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
I am sure you are familiar with the one and only ethical principle, which was discovered by all societies: “the golden rule, in either the positive of the negative form”. I prefer the negative one: “don’t do unto others what you do not want them to do onto you”.
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inocente
Guest
Sorry, I thought you would realize that capitalized Valuer = God. By rejecting God you remove a meaningful aspect of life (= nihilism), and a standard basis for morality. But you’ve also rejected philosophies which attempt to replace them, leaving you with no foundation for your personal opinions.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Of course I knew that you refer to God. But I have no need for God to value life (either mine or others).
My assessment of benevolent / malevolent / indifferent is strictly based upon our observation, exactly like acidic / alkaline / neutral in chemistry is based upon the litmus test - and that test does not require God either.
I have to add that I do not reject “God”, I reject what believers say ABOUT God. But if I accept God’s existence as a hypothesis (for the purposes of this thread), all I can say that God is indifferent to our fate, HERE and NOW. That is not a “put-down”, just like saying that solution-X is neither acidic, nor alkaline is not a negative assessment on solution-X. It is a statement of fact, nothing else.
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minkymurph
Guest
I understand your post to be questioning the existence of evil. If this is your question - or one of them - there is no easy answer to it. In fact, it can be argued there is no answer at all other than what may be categorized as ‘text book’ answers that have meaning to those who hold certain beliefs, but have little meaning to those who do not hold these beliefs and appear as cliches.
I do not profess to have an answer to the question why does God permit evil. I have never found one that would completely satisfy me let alone someone who is uncertain as to the existence of God, or one who does not believe in God at all. But as I believe in God I concede that puts an onus on me as you have implied to state why I believe in God. I do not profess you will find anything I will say adequate or satisfactory and do not present it as such. They are merely points to ponder.
I can understand how you arrived at the conclusion God, if He exists, is indifferent. It seems contradictory to believe God is benevolent, yet chooses not to intervene in circumstances where most of us would if we had the power to. The only thing I have ever come up with is in what circumstances should God intervene, how should He intervene and how often? If God intervened on every occasion something bad was going to happen we would be living in a perfect world governed by a very controlling God.
There are also circumstances in which we humans choose not to intervene for the good of others where there is little personal risk or cost involved and we have the power to do so. Yes God could compensate for our misgivings, but that absolves us from personal responsibility and goes back to the controlling God who governs a utopia argument.
I have also heard it said that we learn more from the black times in our life than the good times. There is little learning when good things happen. It is from mistakes and the bad things in life that we learn and being honest, there are occasions when humans have a tendency to learn the hard way. Humans have history to learn from yet we choose not to. This is evidenced by the fact history repeats itself. The conditions that created the current economic downturn are not unlike those that existed prior to the Wall St crash. Just today I was speaking to someone from Kosovo and he is of the opinion the conditions that exist today are similar to those that existed prior to WW1, the Balkans are a melting pot on the brink of war, yet the EU is attempting to resolve matters in the same unsatisfactory fashion as they did prior to WW1.
To be cont.
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minkymurph
Guest
Cont. from previous post.
If you are still reading thank you for your patience.
On why are we here - I have often wondered why some beautiful creatures in nature live for but a day? What is the point? Is the lot of the animal simply to be born, eat, reproduce and die? Is this also the lot of humans? Are we here simply to pass on our DNA? If so, what is the point? I watched a wonderful documentary recently that demonstrated how the least significant of mammals can form friendships, play, grieve, keep pets, and have a language, and challenged everything we have previously thought about animals. In every cell in every plant there is a biochemical powerhouse and I have concluded life in all it’s forms is nothing short of a miracle (depending of course on what your definition of ‘miracle’ is).
In terms of the existence of God I cannot offer you any evidence I believe you would find satisfactory. I can only say this: I do believe there is something greater than ourselves. I think it would be arrogant of humans to believe there is not, that they are the ultimate and the elite. Is it God? I believe so.
What is the benefit in believing in God? In the first instance I would say belief in a God raises us to another level in terms of consciousness of the world around us, the needs of others, and our own selves. It can be legitimately argued this is not demonstrated by many who profess to believe in God and this has caused me to wonder if they in fact do believe in what they say they do. Belief in God gives us a common law and moral code to live by and such things hold families and communities together. The absence of a common law and moral code results in society composed of individualistic individuals with competing agendas and anomie. There is any amount of evidence for this assertion in history, law and social sciences.
If we are honest most of us have at some point questioned the existence of God, why bad things happen to good people and wondered why our prayers have gone unanswered. Sometimes we can provide ourselves with a satisfactory answer and sometimes we can’t. I would doubt if I have provided you with an answer or even a satisfactory explanation, but I hope you find my reasoning has some credibility even if you don’t agree.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
I found your answer excellent.
A few points to consider.You said: “The only thing I have ever come up with is in what circumstances should God intervene, how should He intervene and how often?”
The answer is simple. God is supposed to know what we shall do even before he creates us. If that is the case then God could create those who would eventually repent their sins, and create them directly into heaven, while simply NOT create the rest. There is no need to interfere at all.
You also said: “I do believe there is something greater than ourselves.” I do, too. All I have to do is look at the universe.
As I said, I found your post very intelligent and informative. I hope I will see you more often. Best wishes!
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goout
Guest
A good place to stop.
There is no time in God. Eternal does not mean time forever, it means outside time.
“Before and after” do not apply to God. That is how human beings think. We are subject to the passing of time.
God knows all things “at once”, and allows free will to operate.
In other words, God would violate free will, which is not love at all, but coercion.
“Heaven” would be meaningless.
Heaven is not a storehouse for God’s manufactured goods, it is a state of perfect relationship, AKA love. Beings forcibly manufactured for a particular state are not free to love.
You have a very deterministic and fundamentalist outlook.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
There is no “free will” for those who do not exist and will not exist.
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goout
Guest
?
What are we talking about now?
What point is there in talking about things that are not?
And I am wondering what your response is to the reality that God is not “in time”?
Thinking this through might solve some of your issue.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
As the Bible says in Jeremiah 1.5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.” Which clearly indicates that there is a “before”. And God could refrain from actually “forming” someone, if he so desires. The future in this time does not exist yet. But God supposedly “knows” what it will be, if he actually creates it, and he can choose not to create something if he so desires.
If God chooses not to create someone, then there is no “free will” to violate. That is all.
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fhansen
Guest
But would you prefer to cease existing, if given the opportunity this moment?
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minkymurph
Guest
Thank you for the compliment.I found your answer excellent.
You said: “The only thing I have ever come up with is in what circumstances should God intervene, how should He intervene and how often?”
The answer is simple. God is supposed to know what we shall do even before he creates us. If that is the case then God could create those who would eventually repent their sins, and create them directly into heaven, while simply NOT create the rest. There is no need to interfere at all.
You also said: “I do believe there is something greater than ourselves.” I do, too. All I have to do is look at the universe.
As I said, I found your post very intelligent and informative. I hope I will see you more often. Best wishes!
God could have chosen not to create anyone who would not enter heaven - just as we can choose to have children with blonde hair, blue eyes, a potentially high IQ and we can even choose their gender via a donor. Most of us take what we are given. Personally I like a bit of unpredictability and haphazardness - it makes life more fun. :whackadoo:
Imagine you had the choice of having a child that would never do anything wrong or hurt anyone? How many of us would intentionally make that choice? I have just tried to scream my two teenage sons into cleaning their rooms as they are a disgrace.
Would I choose to have two boys who never made a mess? The answer is no. It’s not the making the mess that’s the problem so much as not cleaning it up. Would choose to have two boys who would always keep their room clean? Tempting as it presently is probably not.
If a had a child who was seriously ill and was within my power to miraculously cure them - would I? Yes, I would. Why does God not? I don’t know.
Would I miraculously cure every sick child? Now I’m not sure I can answer my own question. :hypno:
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minkymurph
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Imagine if you really did have all God’s power? I think I would do what Morgan Freeman did in Bruce Almighty - hand it on to someone else for a while so I didn’t have responsibility for decision making.Thank you for the compliment.
God could have chosen not to create anyone who would not enter heaven - just as we can choose to have children with blonde hair, blue eyes, a potentially high IQ and we can even choose their gender via a donor. Most of us take what we are given. Personally I like a bit of unpredictability and haphazardness - it makes life more fun. :whackadoo:
Imagine you had the choice of having a child that would never do anything wrong or hurt anyone? How many of us would intentionally make that choice? I have just tried to scream my two teenage sons into cleaning their rooms as they are a disgrace.
Would I choose to have two boys who never made a mess? The answer is no. It’s not the making the mess that’s the problem so much as not cleaning it up. Would choose to have two boys who would always keep their room clean? Tempting as it presently is probably not.
If a had a child who was seriously ill and was within my power to miraculously cure them - would I? Yes, I would. Why does God not? I don’t know.
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tonyrey
Guest
That is the key question - and “you” means “a genuinely independent individual” not “a programmed do-gooder”…
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tonyrey
Guest
So you admit sinless persons are not worth creating…
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Nonsensical question, which has nothing to do with the topic.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Let me start from here. There was a major problem in the movie. Bruce received the power, but not the knowledge or foresight. And what a mess it became.
You are most welcome. It was a sincerely offered.Thank you for the compliment.
Eventually, with gene-splicing we shall be able to do more than that, but that is not what I had in mind. A little bit on unpredictability is fine. If we could eliminate the genes for muscular dystrophy (while keeping everything else intact), why would we not do it? Substitute any inheritable problem if you want to.
But that is exactly what we try to achieve, bring them up to be good, caring, loving beings. We want to “iron out” the bad behavior, and instill good habits.
I am not concerned with little misbehaviors, like a messy room. Would you choose kids who would have no qualms about torturing and raping others? Suppose you are about to conceive a child. The ovum is a given, and there are two sperms approaching. One of them would provide a genetic material for a good, loving offspring, the other one would become a sociopathic monster. If you had the power, which one would you choose? (Rhetorical question, of course.)
I am pretty sure that you would do away with the AIDS virus and the EBOLA virus, if you could. Many a time people ask me what kind of interference would I like for existing problems. The answer is: none. I would prevent the problems in the first place. Remember, an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.If a had a child who was seriously ill and was within my power to miraculously cure them - would I? Yes, I would. Why does God not? I don’t know.
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fhansen
Guest
Of course it does. Do we, even in this messed up world, agree with God (hypothetical or otherwise) that our existence is still worth it?
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