God is not all good

[PJM]

As I say, before we are born we are already judged unworthy and going to hell unless we are baptised (by blood/water/desire). So I don’t see this as fair or just.

Dear Brother Joe,

Don’t you have any easy questions Just kiddin!

But this is another difficult one to answer.

Actually not. Other wise God could not be what God is and has to be: All everything Good, and nothing bad / evil

What would God’s reasoning be if He Created us with all the Spiritual gifts we discussed in my previous post, if He were not going to give us ample opportunity to use and apply them?
Does not seem logical. And it clearly would NOT BE JUST, and God must be Just!

Now indeed, we Are Unworthy (speaking factually) to enter Heaven when we are born; but that is a “state” that is correctible. That is why God started His Catholic Church, which now has a 2000 year continual and unbroaken line of Papal Governance. God provides the means and the graces to know Him, and most often the opportunity to be Baptized.

It is why while Jesus was with us that He (Jesus=God) not only stated only ONE Christian Church (which by the way was the only Christian Church for nearly 1,500 years!) but gave to to His One Church what we call Sacraments.

They are each unique to the Catholic Church (s). Their are seven of them. Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Reconcillation / Confession, The Annointing of the Sick, Marriage and Holy Orders. They are all instituted by Jesus Himself when He was here on Earth, to give us spiritual help, which we call “grace.”

To demonistrate Gods Justice, he did not have to give these sources of Sacramental grace to us but does so, inorder that we might cooperate with God’s plan for our salcation.

At the very root of your concern is the question: “Why did God create us?”

The answer lies in the fact that everything God created is good. But only humanity was made with the ability to reconize the “goodness od creation,” and thus tie in this goodness with a Superior Power (that we call God.) And only humanity gave Glorify and give thanks to God , "for he is Good."

We were Created by God to Glorify him and continually give Him thanks. This certainly makes more sense and has more logic than, thinking we were created just so we could be punished.

True, God pronounces Just and Fair Judgement on us at death, but it is really me and you, by our personal decisions, actions, bad or good, that send us to hell, or permit us to get to Heaven. God makes the announcement, but we personally make the decision.

Hope this helps you Brother:yyeess::irish3:

Love and prayers, Pat

 

[IrishJoe]

I thought you were actually looking for an answer and not an argument, but apparently I was wrong.

Yay! :dancing: judgementalism!. Only at this stage I’m pretty much immune. I’m looking for answers but showing why it is not acceptable to me, I attempt to express my disagreement with it via argument.

Now indeed, we Are Unworthy (speaking factually) to enter Heaven when we are born; but that is a “state” that is correctible. That is why God started His Catholic Church, which now has a 2000 year continual and unbroaken line of Papal Governance. God provides the means and the graces to know Him, and most often the opportunity to be Baptized.

It is why while Jesus was with us that He (Jesus=God) not only stated only ONE Christian Church (which by the way was the only Christian Church for nearly 1,500 years!) but gave to to His One Church what we call Sacraments.

They are each unique to the Catholic Church (s). Their are seven of them. Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Reconcillation / Confession, The Annointing of the Sick, Marriage and Holy Orders. They are all instituted by Jesus Himself when He was here on Earth, to give us spiritual help, which we call “grace.”

To demonistrate Gods Justice, he did not have to give these sources of Sacramental grace to us but does so, inorder that we might cooperate with God’s plan for our salcation.

At the very root of your concern is the question: “Why did God create us?”

The answer lies in the fact that everything God created is good. But only humanity was made with the ability to reconize the “goodness od creation,” and thus tie in this goodness with a Superior Power (that we call God.) And only humanity gave Glorify and give thanks to God , “for he is Good.”

We were Created by God to Glorify him and continually give Him thanks. This certainly makes more sense and has more logic than, thinking we were created just so we could be punished.

True, God pronounces Just and Fair Judgement on us at death, but it is really me and you, by our personal decisions, actions, bad or good, that send us to hell, or permit us to get to Heaven. God makes the announcement, but we personally make the decision.

I am aware of all of this, I have read a catechism a few times and the bible at least once. However it still does not mean I agree with it.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Judgementalism? LOL. No, that was just a statement of fact. I see the same tactic on the Non-Catholic Religion forum all of the time. When you offer an explanation for one issue to a person and they immediately change the subject and bring up an un-related issue, that’s a pretty good indication they are looking for an argument, and are not really seeking answers.

That explanation is not from a Catholic source, so I find it difficult to believe you read it in the Catechism. As I said, though, I do believe it is generally consistent with Catholic thought.

 

[PJM]

Yay! :dancing: judgementalism!. Only at this stage I’m pretty much immune. I’m looking for answers but showing why it is not acceptable to me, I attempt to express my disagreement with it via argument.

I am aware of all of this, I have read a catechism a few times and the bible at least once. However it still does not mean I agree with it.

That my friend Joe tells me alot. Thank you.

Having done both mutiple times, I might be of some help?

Specifically what is it you either don’t understand or agree with?

Joe, if you can be specific so can I. I’ll work with and for ya friend:wink::aok:

Love and prayers,

Your searching and seeking and I’m answering and praying!

Pat

 

[IrishJoe]

I specifically dont agree with original sin. Most of my disagreement stems from there.

 

[walshy]

Joe who are we to question the ways of God.

 

[jpatterson]

God is good. I can not give God reasons for the OT, but the new Testament God gave HIS Son, Jesus only one who was sinnless to die. How many other gods can say the same? None. God is mercy Satan wants us to think otherwise and that’s why there are many false doctrines about God. For example Hell, no one is in hell now, all who have died are asleep in there graves, neither in heaven nor hell. All those whom have died with out Christ will not suffer for all eternity, true they will be cast into the lake of fire, but depending upon the way they lived here on earth, will determine how long or short they will suffer and how hard or light they will suffer, in the end they will be no more, they will truly be dead. Remeber in the bible the Will of God is that all should be saved, but God gives each one of us this choice.

 

[RSD]

its called original sin. If we are born and die without being baptised we go to hell. In addition the teaching about limbo while dismissed was still a popular solution. In the churches happy fluffy revolution of late its been considered a ‘theological postulation’.

There is a Catholic doctrine which is usually called (for short) “original sin” but what you have just said there is not a good statement of the Catholic doctrine, even if you call it the same thing. This is the kind of thing I meant when I said that for a better understanding make sure to talk to someone, for long periods of time, because the short answer format we have here is not good at conveying some nuanced concepts.

There are some fundamentalist Christians who have a position similar to what you describe, but that is I believe an error on their part. The idea you have stated is not and has never been a Catholic doctrine.

C. S. Lewis asked one time in exasperation “How many times must a man say something before he is free of the accusation of saying the exact opposite?” Would it help you at all to realize that your basic disagreement with the above statement is in fact a Catholic position? What I mean is, we don’t agree with that either. Would you like to know that we really do agree with you on that?

 

[RSD]

its called original sin. If we are born and die without being baptised we go to hell. In addition the teaching about limbo while dismissed was still a popular solution. In the churches happy fluffy revolution of late its been considered a ‘theological postulation’.

There is a Catholic doctrine which is usually called (for short) “original sin” but what you have just said there is not a good statement of the Catholic doctrine, even if you call it the same thing. This is the kind of thing I meant when I said that for a better understanding make sure to talk to someone, for long periods of time, because the short answer format we have here is not good at conveying some nuanced concepts.

There are some fundamentalist Christians who have a position similar to what you describe, but that is I believe an error on their part. The idea you have stated is not and has never been a Catholic doctrine.

C. S. Lewis asked one time in exasperation “How many times must a man say something before he is free of the accusation of saying the exact opposite?” Would it help you at all to realize that your basic disagreement with the above statement is in fact a Catholic position? What I mean is, we don’t agree with that either. Would you like to know that we really do agree with you on that?

 

[RSD]

There is a Catholic doctrine which is usually called (for short) “original sin” but what you have just said there is not a good statement of the Catholic doctrine, even if you call it the same thing. This is the kind of thing I meant when I said that for a better understanding make sure to talk to someone, for long periods of time, because the short answer format we have here is not good at conveying some nuanced concepts.

There are some fundamentalist Christians who have a position similar to what you describe, but that is I believe an error on their part. The idea you have stated is not and has never been a Catholic doctrine.

C. S. Lewis asked one time in exasperation “How many times must a man say something before he is free of the accusation of saying the exact opposite?” Would it help you at all to realize that your basic disagreement with the above statement is in fact a Catholic position? What I mean is, we don’t agree with that either. Would you like to know that we really do agree with you on that?

 

[RSD]

I apologize for the duplicate. I would delete it if I could figure out how.

 

[PJM]

=jpatterson;4897985]God is good. I can not give God reasons for the OT, but the new Testament God gave HIS Son, Jesus only one who was sinnless to die. How many other gods can say the same? None. God is mercy

My dear friend in Christ, your posting on a Catholic Form so I hope I’m not offending you in providing the perspective (very briefy) of the only 2000 year old “Church of Jesus Christ,” He founded it, so it seems fair to call the RCC His church.

The killing that Yahweh required in the Old Testament was not random, senseless acts as is most often related. God’s Chosen People were moving into new territorities that where occupied by heathens who recogonized that their was indeed one or more superior enties, and often had sungods, moon gods, season gods. In fact a “god” for eveerythinh they could not intellectually understand or explain.

If we consider this took place in the early stages of the “faith and belief formation of the One Yahweh God,” there was good reason to expect that if things were left to their natural flow, inter-marriage would become common, and the belief system in the One Yahweh God, would be greatly compromised.

Indeed we find this very thing happening time and time again. and God in His Love and mercy kept calling His People back to him.

In order to minimize this corrupt influence, God applied His Logic and Justice, and determined that like a Plague, a spreadable sickness the only way to stop it was to erradicate it!

If we have even a slight understanding of the Devine Nature of God, we would understand that God is All everything good, and cannot be, anything evil or bad, or He would not be God! So God is incapable of evil! Simply not possible.

Satan wants us to think otherwise and that’s why there are many false doctrines about God. For example Hell, no one is in hell now, all who have died are asleep in there graves, neither in heaven nor hell. All those whom have died with out Christ will not suffer for all eternity

,

I am assuming that you do believe in the Bible. Did you know that the bible is a Catholic book? The entire New Testament was written by Catholics. Even your KJV is about 90% Catholic. And the Catholic Bible was the only Bible for about 1,500 years!

God is indeed Mercy, Love, Kindness, gentleness, Forgiving right? All of these are “good.?”

What about being Fair and being Just? are these too good things? Yes, then God has to be both Fair and Just, not just merciful. Agreed?

2 Pet. 2: "
4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell * and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; 5* if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6* if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly; 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority

Jude: " 6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day; 7* just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Mt 25: “l answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41* Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;” By 'his angels God is speaking od everyone that has been sent to hell.

I could provide amany, amny more example but space prohibits it. Tese pasages clearly say the dead who dis not die in God’s grace, are in hell NOW! They speak of now until the “final Judgement.” They then will be Judged publically and again sentenced to hell, or if they are in heaven, they will return to heaven. I can give Biblical evidence of what I am sharing with you. It’s God not me who says this.

Remember in the bible the Will of God is that all should be saved, but God gives each one of us this choice.

So does everyone make the right choice? Of course not!

The bible never say’s everyone is saved> In fact in many, many places just the opposite. and we can know that it is true, because God is and has to be Just.

All of us are “Redeemed” but Salvation is clearly time and again, not assurred.Not promised.

Read John 20:23, John 3:5, Mt. 19:16, Phil. 1:29,Lk. 10:16, Mt.25:31-46

Friend do your soul a favor and look these up:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

 

[tobinatorstark]

He most certainly all good.

Notes from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 14. Appeased. Yet of this Moses was not fully assured, and in effect only those who were less guilty, were reprieved to be punished afterwards, ver. 30, 35. (Haydock)

 

[ready]

I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all. Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me. I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

You are misunderstood. God is all good. Read the Scott Hahn book, A Father Who Keeps His Promises. You’ll read about how good God is and how faithful he is to his promises.

 

[PJM]

**

Re: God is not all good

Perhaps you are right?

Romans 12" 19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Nahum Chapter 1: 2 The LORD is a jealous God and avenging, the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and of great might, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty."

But by friend, your not:nope::crying:

God is, and God can only be all and everything GOOD, otherwise He couldn’t be God.

You think, therefore you are. Your “MIND,WILL, INTELLECT” are are non-matter / SPIRITUAL, thus God lives!**

 

[SMHW]

I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all. Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me. I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

I don’t expect you to change your mind anytime soon but I would like you to think about this…

If the Catholic/Christian God DOES exist then your assertion is incorrect by definition. The definition of “good” is that which is in accordance with God. Evil, would be that which is in opposition to God. As such, it may not be God who is not good, but rather your understanding of good that is faulty.

While it can be annoying, good and evil are not about what does or does not gratify people but about what does or does not gratify God. Like it or not, we are created for God’s “pleasure”. When humans want to exist for our pleasure rather than God’s then sin is the result.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all. Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me. I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

Dear Joe,

I’ve been where (I think) you are in regards to this issue and to agnosticism. At one point, I began to study the Bible vigorously. I was born non-Catholic Christian, was faithful, but when I began to study the issue of evil and hell, my faith floundered. I rejected what I thought were atrocities in the Old Testament and rejected the notion of hell.

I became very angry because I felt I had been lied to all those years, from parents, teachers, pastors and church members. I wanted nothing to do with those liars or with God. I was in the desert for many years spiritually. Tried my hand at Buddhism and Eastern religions. Took Buddhist vows from a Zen Buddhist priest. The whole thing.

But years later, some things began to happen in my life, things that I could not control or explain. Through certain events God made Himself known to me when I needed Him most - when I had explored every other avenue but Him and was left wanting, He came to my defense in a real spiritual battle.

My story may not mean anything to you and you may not feel it is relevant. I hope that it is relevant. This may be a desert experience for you, I don’t know. Give it time. Give God the benefit of the doubt, no matter what your mind and heart are saying at the moment.

Peace…

MW

 

[matahari]

To Irish Joe, I find it offensive that you should call God evil. Perhaps you think God should have sought your approval before battling against His enemies ? God is holy that means His Name should not be profaned . The Second Commandment is Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain. In king’s English it means “Do not speak disrespectfully about God”

 

[Contarini]

I’m currently agnostic. I accept that your God could be there and if he is I dont care as I dont see him worthy of worshiping. Anyway some christians siad that god is all good and all loving. Yet some of the things he does/condones in the OT don’t seem to be in any way good at all.

You are assuming that we arrive at our concept of God from an inductive study of the literal details of the OT. Some fundamentalists do this, admittedly.

Then there’s that bible quote about God repenting of evil so he just seems to be petty and vindictive to me.

“Evil” there is probably a bad translation–“hara” can mean things that are harmful and unpleasant. I take this to be a metaphorical, poetic way of saying that God is unwilling to do things that cause pain and suffering to human beings, and does so only regretfully when necessary.

I mean there are lots of other God that’s are mentioned in the bible and elsewhere and throughout other religions why go for one who is clearly evil?

What “other gods” do you find preferable? And Christians believe that there is only one God, so the idea that God is one being among many is alien to Christian theology. Other religions’ accounts of ultimate reality are alternative accounts of the same reality we name when we say “God.” Other “gods” who are not ultimate are not competitors for the title claimed by our God–they are beings on a different level altogether.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

To Irish Joe, I find it offensive that you should call God evil. /QUOTE}

Being “offended” by opinions expressed on a philosophy forum is not helpful or appropriate. If you don’t want to be offended, perhaps you should only talk to people with whom you know you will agree?

Edwin