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- Status
J
jen_fla
Guest
hi irishjoe,
the saying of the OT can be VERY difficult to understand. it definitely requires studying. serious studying.
this thread has some good links:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317984
if it were me, i would first ask myself is there a being that caused the universe to exist? first mover, first cause and so on. there are tons of threads on this in the philosophy section. totally fascinating but sometimes they get a bit too heavy. have you read mere Christianity by cs lewis? not lame, very interesting read.
so if you accept the LOGICAL reasons for there being a being that just is, a being that would not be lacking in any quality, then you’d have to ask yourself does God just exist, but has nothing to do with us? did God create us to only ignore us? no communication… total abandonment would seem to be an evil God in my opinion. so if he did communicate with man, then you have to wonder which monotheistic religion holds the Truth. the CC teaches that all major religions have some of the Truth, but only the CC being guided by the Holy Spirit has the fullness of Truth.
i am no Bible scholar, so i can’t be of much help, but context and understanding the Scripture from how the Catholic Church interprets it are key. you can see all the damage caused by people reading it and saying this means this because this is how i understand it.
i mean think about it. when have you every heard a priest say to go stone an adulterer? or you know the way to really please God is to go get yerself a bunch of snakes and give em a good handling (you are lucky you live in ireland…
)…
yet if an alien landed on our planet and picked up the Bible they might think this is what Christians actually believed in.
Scripture is not easy. no one would expect to be able to pick up a physics book and just understand it without proper instruction and discipline.
at any rate, i wish you well on your path towards the Truth. keep digging for the facts and pray while you do it. i gave up on the Catholic Church a long time ago and some weird, mystical awesome events happened that i just can’t deny. i’m so thankful to be back and utterly amazed at how many things i thought were teaching of the Church that simply were not.
like that old saying of Bishop Sheen goes:
There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.
peace,
jen
the saying of the OT can be VERY difficult to understand. it definitely requires studying. serious studying.
this thread has some good links:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317984
if it were me, i would first ask myself is there a being that caused the universe to exist? first mover, first cause and so on. there are tons of threads on this in the philosophy section. totally fascinating but sometimes they get a bit too heavy. have you read mere Christianity by cs lewis? not lame, very interesting read.
so if you accept the LOGICAL reasons for there being a being that just is, a being that would not be lacking in any quality, then you’d have to ask yourself does God just exist, but has nothing to do with us? did God create us to only ignore us? no communication… total abandonment would seem to be an evil God in my opinion. so if he did communicate with man, then you have to wonder which monotheistic religion holds the Truth. the CC teaches that all major religions have some of the Truth, but only the CC being guided by the Holy Spirit has the fullness of Truth.
i am no Bible scholar, so i can’t be of much help, but context and understanding the Scripture from how the Catholic Church interprets it are key. you can see all the damage caused by people reading it and saying this means this because this is how i understand it.
i mean think about it. when have you every heard a priest say to go stone an adulterer? or you know the way to really please God is to go get yerself a bunch of snakes and give em a good handling (you are lucky you live in ireland…
)…yet if an alien landed on our planet and picked up the Bible they might think this is what Christians actually believed in.
Scripture is not easy. no one would expect to be able to pick up a physics book and just understand it without proper instruction and discipline.
at any rate, i wish you well on your path towards the Truth. keep digging for the facts and pray while you do it. i gave up on the Catholic Church a long time ago and some weird, mystical awesome events happened that i just can’t deny. i’m so thankful to be back and utterly amazed at how many things i thought were teaching of the Church that simply were not.
like that old saying of Bishop Sheen goes:
There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.
peace,
jen
C
Contarini
Guest
With God’s nature, not just God’s will. And in Thomist thought (which is surely the most important theological and philosophical tradition in Catholicism), we participate in the eternal law of God’s nature by reason. So you can’t just dismiss the objections in this way.
If our moral intuition that slaughtering children is always wrong is faulty, we have no way to know anything that is good or evil, and thus no reason to be Christians at all. We have no recourse but to be total moral relativists and atheists.
You are wrong. I recommend that you read Fr. Servais Pinckaers’ *The Foundation of Christian Ethics. *The line of argument you are endorsing is largely responsible for the Reformation and for the moral chaos of the past few centuries. The traditional, orthodox Catholic view is that the good is identical with our true happiness.
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
I’m not sure what this means, and I always find it suspicious when people start making remarks about my religious affiliation (about which I try my best to be perfectly clear) instead of responding to the point.
It has nothing to do with being broadminded. I do not find Islam particularly appealing intellectually. I don’t know why you think it’s a good thing for Christians to imitate the touchy, even violent reaction to disagreement that is all too common among Muslims.
Edwin
S
SanctusEnigma40
Guest
Lets read this verses in the Old testament and reason if God is really “All Good”:
Beligerence and Ruthlessness of Jehovah:
Gen. 35:5, Ex. 14:14, 14:25-28, 15:3 and 17.16; Deut. 4:33-35, 7:21-24, 10:17-21, 11:25, 20:1-4, 20:16-17, 31:3, 32:21-26 and 32:39-42; Josh. 5:13-14, 10:25; 1st Sam. 2:25, 17:45-47; 2nd Sam. 22:25; 2nd Chr. 20:15-17; Neh 4:20; Psalms 18:34-40, 24:8 and 144:1; Isaiah 13:4, 31:4, 42:13 and 66:15-17; Jer 1:19, 21:5-12, 48:10, 50:25 and 51:11; Joel 2:10-11 and 3:10; Zech 8:10, 9:14-16 and 14:3; 2nd Cor. 5:11; and Heb. 10:31
Cannibalism - Threatened, Predicted, or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:29; 2nd Kings 6:27; Is. 49:26; Jer. 19:9; Lam. 2:20; Lam. 4:10; and Ezek. 5:10
Infants or Children killed, Suggested or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:22; Num 31:17; Deut. 3:6; 1 Sam. 15:3; 2nd Sam. 12:15-18; Ps. 137:8-9; Isa. 14:21, 13:18; Jer. 2:30, 15:7 and 18:21; Lam. 4:10; Ezek. 9:6; Hos. 2:4, 9:12 and 13:16
Innocent People Punished by Jehovah
Gen. 9:20-25, 20:18; Ex. 12:29-30, 20:5; Lev. 21:17-21; Deut. 5:9; 1st Sam. 3:11-14; 2nd Sam. 5:8; Job 1:1-19, 2:1-7, 30:20-31; and Isa. 14:21
Vindictiveness of Jehovah
Num. 11:31-34; Ps. 94:1; Isa. 34:1-15; Jer. 5:29-31, 9:9, 46:10, 50:13-15 and 51:36; Rom 12:19; Heb. 10:30-31
Commandments given, with extreme punishment for breaking by Jehovah
Ex. 31:14-15; Lev. 20:10-21, 21:9 and 24:10-16; Num. 5:12-27, 15:32-36; Deut 13:6-10, 13:12-16,17:2-6,21:18-21, 22:21; and Zech. 13:3
Hostility of Jehovah
Ps. 2:12, 6:1, 7:6, 7:11, 21:9, 27:9, 38:3, 47:2, 56:7, 59:13, 68:35, 69:24, 74:1-2, 76:12, 77:12, 77:9, 78:21, 78:31, 78:49-50, 78:58-66, 79:5, 80:4-6, 106:29, 106:32 and 106:40
Mercilessness of Jehovah
Deut. 7:2, 7:16 and 20:12-17; Ps. 1:4-9; Isa. 9:17-20; Jer. 20:16
Evil Carried Out or Threatened by Jehovah
Jud. 2:15, 9:23; 1st Sam. 16:14-15, 18:10; 2nd Sam. 21:11, 24:15-16; 1st kings 14:10, 22:23; 2nd Kings 21:12-15; 2nd Chr. 18:22; Isa. 19:14, 31:2 and 45:7; Jer. 1:14-16, 11;11, 11:17, 11:23, 18:7. 18:11, 19:15, 21:9-12. 25:29, 32:42, 35:17, 36:3, 44:2, 44:11, 44:27-29, 45:5, and Amos 3:6
Killings by Jehovah, with his help or under his command
Gen. 5:24, 7:21-23, 19:24-25, 38:7 and 38:10, Ex. 12:29-30, 32:25-28 (3,000 killed); Lev. 10:1-2; Num. 11:1, (Many burned to death by Jehovah), 14:26-37, 16:32-35, 16:44-49 (14,700 killed), 21:5-6, 25:1-9 (24,000 killed), 31:7-18 and 33:4; Deut. 2:20-21, 2: 30-34 and 3:3-7 (people of 60 cities and other towns all killed); Josh. 6:21-24, 8:25-28 (12,000 killed), 10:10-13, 10:28-42 and 11:6:14; Jud. 1:4 (10,000 killed), 3:29 (10,000 killed), 8:10 (120,000 killed), 11:32-33, 12:6 (42,000 killed), 18:27, 20:23-25 (18,000 killed), 20:35 (25,000 killed) and 20:48; 1st Sam. 6:19 (Jehovah kills 50,070), 15:1-8 (all Amalekites), 23:1-5, 25:39 (Jehovah murders Nabal), 27:7-11 (all Amalekites again), 30:1-2 and 30:8 & 30:17 (all Amalekites except for 400); 2nd Sam. 5:19-25, 6:6-7 (Uzzah killed by jehovah for steading the Ark), 8:1-5, 8:13 (18,000 killed), 10:18 (more than 40,000 killed), 12:14-18 (David infant child murdered by Jehovah), 23:10-12 and 24:15,(70,000 killed); 1st King 18:19&40 (450 prophets killed), 20:28-30 (100,000 killed); 2nd kings 1:10-12, 2:23-24 (42 children killed), 10:17-30, 17:25 (lions sent by Jehovah to kill people) and 19:35 (Angel of the Lord Kills 185,000); 1st Chr. 5:19-22, 10:13-14 (the Lord kills King Saul); 2 Chr. 13:15-18 (500,000 killed), 13:20 (the Lord murders Jeroboam), 14:8-15 (One Million Killed), 20:22-25, 25:11-12 (10,000 killed on two occasions = 20,000 killed), 28:5-8 (120,000 killed) and 36:15-17; Esther 9:9-13 (510 killed); Jer. 33:5; Lam. 2:1-22, 5:43; Ezek 9:5-10
Promises Broken by Jehovah
Num. 10:9, wich was clearly broken (see supporting text), 14:34, 26:65 (confirms this breach - only two Israelites entered the promised Land). See also Acts 7:1-5
1 Samuel 15:2-3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *** …’ And Saul … utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
All that amounts to an overuse of “utterly destroy”. You would have thought that after Moses brought down the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20), with the explicit “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), there would be some kind of objection to killing thousands of people, including women and children. Let’s face it - if anyone here today got a vision from God telling him/her to go kill an entire race of people, it’s far more likely the person would be declared insane rather than that becoming acceptable justification for utterly destroying cities and tribes.
No Mercy
Deuteronomy 7:2 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deutenomomy 20:13-14,16 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Judges 18:27 27 Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.
After reading this, Somehow i do not think God is “All Good”. But maybe some catholic friend can find a way to harmonize this verses with an all “Good God”! I will like to see this!
Beligerence and Ruthlessness of Jehovah:
Gen. 35:5, Ex. 14:14, 14:25-28, 15:3 and 17.16; Deut. 4:33-35, 7:21-24, 10:17-21, 11:25, 20:1-4, 20:16-17, 31:3, 32:21-26 and 32:39-42; Josh. 5:13-14, 10:25; 1st Sam. 2:25, 17:45-47; 2nd Sam. 22:25; 2nd Chr. 20:15-17; Neh 4:20; Psalms 18:34-40, 24:8 and 144:1; Isaiah 13:4, 31:4, 42:13 and 66:15-17; Jer 1:19, 21:5-12, 48:10, 50:25 and 51:11; Joel 2:10-11 and 3:10; Zech 8:10, 9:14-16 and 14:3; 2nd Cor. 5:11; and Heb. 10:31
Cannibalism - Threatened, Predicted, or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:29; 2nd Kings 6:27; Is. 49:26; Jer. 19:9; Lam. 2:20; Lam. 4:10; and Ezek. 5:10
Infants or Children killed, Suggested or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:22; Num 31:17; Deut. 3:6; 1 Sam. 15:3; 2nd Sam. 12:15-18; Ps. 137:8-9; Isa. 14:21, 13:18; Jer. 2:30, 15:7 and 18:21; Lam. 4:10; Ezek. 9:6; Hos. 2:4, 9:12 and 13:16
Innocent People Punished by Jehovah
Gen. 9:20-25, 20:18; Ex. 12:29-30, 20:5; Lev. 21:17-21; Deut. 5:9; 1st Sam. 3:11-14; 2nd Sam. 5:8; Job 1:1-19, 2:1-7, 30:20-31; and Isa. 14:21
Vindictiveness of Jehovah
Num. 11:31-34; Ps. 94:1; Isa. 34:1-15; Jer. 5:29-31, 9:9, 46:10, 50:13-15 and 51:36; Rom 12:19; Heb. 10:30-31
Commandments given, with extreme punishment for breaking by Jehovah
Ex. 31:14-15; Lev. 20:10-21, 21:9 and 24:10-16; Num. 5:12-27, 15:32-36; Deut 13:6-10, 13:12-16,17:2-6,21:18-21, 22:21; and Zech. 13:3
Hostility of Jehovah
Ps. 2:12, 6:1, 7:6, 7:11, 21:9, 27:9, 38:3, 47:2, 56:7, 59:13, 68:35, 69:24, 74:1-2, 76:12, 77:12, 77:9, 78:21, 78:31, 78:49-50, 78:58-66, 79:5, 80:4-6, 106:29, 106:32 and 106:40
Mercilessness of Jehovah
Deut. 7:2, 7:16 and 20:12-17; Ps. 1:4-9; Isa. 9:17-20; Jer. 20:16
Evil Carried Out or Threatened by Jehovah
Jud. 2:15, 9:23; 1st Sam. 16:14-15, 18:10; 2nd Sam. 21:11, 24:15-16; 1st kings 14:10, 22:23; 2nd Kings 21:12-15; 2nd Chr. 18:22; Isa. 19:14, 31:2 and 45:7; Jer. 1:14-16, 11;11, 11:17, 11:23, 18:7. 18:11, 19:15, 21:9-12. 25:29, 32:42, 35:17, 36:3, 44:2, 44:11, 44:27-29, 45:5, and Amos 3:6
Killings by Jehovah, with his help or under his command
Gen. 5:24, 7:21-23, 19:24-25, 38:7 and 38:10, Ex. 12:29-30, 32:25-28 (3,000 killed); Lev. 10:1-2; Num. 11:1, (Many burned to death by Jehovah), 14:26-37, 16:32-35, 16:44-49 (14,700 killed), 21:5-6, 25:1-9 (24,000 killed), 31:7-18 and 33:4; Deut. 2:20-21, 2: 30-34 and 3:3-7 (people of 60 cities and other towns all killed); Josh. 6:21-24, 8:25-28 (12,000 killed), 10:10-13, 10:28-42 and 11:6:14; Jud. 1:4 (10,000 killed), 3:29 (10,000 killed), 8:10 (120,000 killed), 11:32-33, 12:6 (42,000 killed), 18:27, 20:23-25 (18,000 killed), 20:35 (25,000 killed) and 20:48; 1st Sam. 6:19 (Jehovah kills 50,070), 15:1-8 (all Amalekites), 23:1-5, 25:39 (Jehovah murders Nabal), 27:7-11 (all Amalekites again), 30:1-2 and 30:8 & 30:17 (all Amalekites except for 400); 2nd Sam. 5:19-25, 6:6-7 (Uzzah killed by jehovah for steading the Ark), 8:1-5, 8:13 (18,000 killed), 10:18 (more than 40,000 killed), 12:14-18 (David infant child murdered by Jehovah), 23:10-12 and 24:15,(70,000 killed); 1st King 18:19&40 (450 prophets killed), 20:28-30 (100,000 killed); 2nd kings 1:10-12, 2:23-24 (42 children killed), 10:17-30, 17:25 (lions sent by Jehovah to kill people) and 19:35 (Angel of the Lord Kills 185,000); 1st Chr. 5:19-22, 10:13-14 (the Lord kills King Saul); 2 Chr. 13:15-18 (500,000 killed), 13:20 (the Lord murders Jeroboam), 14:8-15 (One Million Killed), 20:22-25, 25:11-12 (10,000 killed on two occasions = 20,000 killed), 28:5-8 (120,000 killed) and 36:15-17; Esther 9:9-13 (510 killed); Jer. 33:5; Lam. 2:1-22, 5:43; Ezek 9:5-10
Promises Broken by Jehovah
Num. 10:9, wich was clearly broken (see supporting text), 14:34, 26:65 (confirms this breach - only two Israelites entered the promised Land). See also Acts 7:1-5
1 Samuel 15:2-3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *** …’ And Saul … utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
All that amounts to an overuse of “utterly destroy”. You would have thought that after Moses brought down the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20), with the explicit “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), there would be some kind of objection to killing thousands of people, including women and children. Let’s face it - if anyone here today got a vision from God telling him/her to go kill an entire race of people, it’s far more likely the person would be declared insane rather than that becoming acceptable justification for utterly destroying cities and tribes.
No Mercy
Deuteronomy 7:2 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deutenomomy 20:13-14,16 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Judges 18:27 27 Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.
After reading this, Somehow i do not think God is “All Good”. But maybe some catholic friend can find a way to harmonize this verses with an all “Good God”! I will like to see this!
E
Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
It would seem that, actually, we participate in God by Grace, and we know it through reason.
newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm
The Image of God in us is intellect, but not how we participate with God.
newadvent.org/summa/1093.htm
It still is wrong even if we don’t know it, as it is still based in the eternal law of God, not our reasoning of it. Our culpability in the sin of that evil is mitigated through our reason but not the sin being mitigated by what we know about it.
There is a distinction lost today in the difference between happiness and blessedness. “Happy are those who mourn…”??? True happiness is blessedness and that is not what makes us happy. As an Episcopal, you see the “happiness” of “Bishop” Gene Robinson, who left his wife and kids to live with a gay lover. We as Catholics would not call this blessed even if it makes him “happy”. thefreelibrary.com/The+Rev.+V.+Gene+Robinson+was+consecrated+as+Episcopal+Bishop+of+New…-a0130933459
E
Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
There is an arrogance in prescribing what is good to God. This seems to be the prevalent atheistic attitude today.
They knew that God is Lord and didn’t repent, as they have had 40 years to do so, so they are destroyed. The same will be on the last day. Saying that this isn’t fair when we have all have been given more than ample time to see what is true and righteous and thus repent of our evil ways is arrogant in that truth is not something we make but something (more appropriately, some One, Jesus, The Way, The Truth, and The Life) we give our assent to. Humility and obedience are virtues rewarded and the opposite is condemned, seeing this and getting indignant that it isn’t the way we want it to be is arrogant and is not tolerated by a father toward his children, much less by our Heavenly Father toward His Children on earth.
R
ready
Guest
God is all good and is perfectly just. I assure you of this. Maybe people who think God isn’t all good have a problem with accepting his justice. Love is just or love is not love.
S
SanctusEnigma40
Guest
I am not sure how God killing babies and/or commanding to kill babies is somehow fulfilling God justice. You have a very weird sense of justice! have you and your catholic friends ever rallied in abortion clinics to protest the killing of babies? When woman kill babies throug abortion is very extremely evil, but when God do it, and excell on it, is Good??
Your sense of morality is very, very disturbing, and very hypocritical to say the least!
S
SanctusEnigma40
Guest
Earnest Bunbury:
Did you made that rule?
I am sorry that you feel that I am arrogant for pointing out clear Gods atrocities in the Old Testament. You calling me arrogant tell me more about your hypocritical standard of judging moral issues when it comes to God.
Or maybe, just maybe, you can illustrate me how are all the attrocities commited by God in the Old testament somehow good without using double standards.
If you can do this, I will graciously accept the arrogance charge from you, and maybe even repent!
God is constantly violating His own moral standards. If I point that out, then I become arrogant in your eyes. I think is arrogant for you to pontificate that God killing babies is a good holy and commendable thing. Since when killing the innocent is good? who made that rule?
Did you made that rule?
I am sorry that you feel that I am arrogant for pointing out clear Gods atrocities in the Old Testament. You calling me arrogant tell me more about your hypocritical standard of judging moral issues when it comes to God.
Or maybe, just maybe, you can illustrate me how are all the attrocities commited by God in the Old testament somehow good without using double standards.
If you can do this, I will graciously accept the arrogance charge from you, and maybe even repent!
S
SanctusEnigma40
Guest
How can you assure me this?? How are you so sure about this?
Gods track record on the Old Testament is not going to help you too much! If anything His Brand of justice reminds me of the Mob.
I can almost picture Him like the Great Godfather in Heaven:
“If you do not do this my way, I will kill you kids, you wife, you parents, your brothers, and your friends!, and then I will kill you too!”
“Is my way or else! Capicce??”
That is how Jehovah’s brand of justice sounds to me when i read the Old testament.
He even runs a bloody vendetta with his own people, his own family!
If you feel otherwise, please be so kind to answer my objections first. What I want to hear from you is How is God killing the innocent (babies, children) fulfilling His Justice? How is this consider Just in your vie? How do you justify God doing this and being Just?
I cannot wait to hear your answer to this!
Let me know.
R
ready
Guest
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to suffer persecution for God’s sake. I will reap a sure reward.
:thumbsup:
R
ready
Guest
I couldn’t get myself to read your entire post but I did get to the part about you questioning how I could assure you that God is just. Here is your answer: God is love and love is just. Period.
L
longcat1989
Guest
god ****s kids
L
longcat1989
Guest
B
bob_the_atheist
Guest
S
SanctusEnigma40
Guest
How childish can your arguments be. What am I saying! your answer do not even qualify as even worthy to ponder. It just sounds like what a child will say.
I give you a good argument for why I do not consider that God is Just.
Your childish answer : God is love and love is just.
Hardly a convincing argument. Your argument is just begging the question. How do you know He is Love giving his track record of cruelty display in the Old testament?
Again my question is: How do you know God is Love BASED ON HIS TRACK RECORD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT!!
What is going to be your next argument? Wait I know : I know He is Love because he is Just!
Is that the best you’ve got?? Is that the best you can do? giving answers that are circular and beg the questions??
You’ve got to try harder than that!
When you can come up with better arguments then, by all means let me hear them. Other wise I advise you take time and think before you post!
Here you go again ready! Another Childish attitude. You do not know how to respond, so you play the Martyr Card. I am being persecuted… Poor me…!
What are you ready, like 5 years old? Don’t you have to be certain age to post in here?
You do not need to post if you do not have a good argument. You can read and learn. BY all means, if you, or anyone else reading this can come up with better arguments, I will be happy to think about them and give my best honest response.
I honestly am not sure if you are being childish on purpose or are really serious about the whole thing. It is hard for me to believe that your whole arguemts amount to plain circular arguemt, Begging the question argument, and a silly appeal to persecution and martyr syndrome.
That’s it!
Other that you have not given me anything decent to reply to!
If you want, just give the opportunity to other people who might want to seriously contribute to this discussion forum.
Maybe this might be a joke for you, but I am seriously trying to get to the bottom of things here.
Seriously ready, stop wasting my time, or come up with something better.
And please, I do not want to hear from you another reply saying thanks for my persecution, and saying that I am contributing for your reward to increase in heaven.
All of that is beyond the point that we are trying to discuss in this forum. Is that what you say every time you run out of arguments?
I truly pity you! I am not sure if to laugh, or be seriously concerned about you.
E
Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
I never mentioned you. I only used your idea.
I reiterate that prescribing our sense of good onto God is arrogance.
A cursory study of the Bible, open minded mind you (you in a general sense), shows that this world we are passing through is not our home, God in heaven is our home, so people of varying stages of wickedness being deprived of life, life given to them by God, is told to inform those who wish to learn, the dealings of God with humanity and the failings of humanity toward God. One may reject this but you, Mr SanctusEnigma40, are here to learn, so you say, and haven’t rejected God totally as you are taking time to converse with us. Out of hand rejections are not indicative of a humble search for the truth, though.
A further cursory study of humanity in the same vein you (specific sense) attribute to God would preclude humanity unworthy as the killing of babies and genocide is a constant purveyance of mans inhumanity (ungodliness) to man. The difference is that God is Morality and Justice and Good itself. We are the ones constantly receiving the just desserts of our own actions, our inability to perform the good, the just, or the moral. The general arrogance is in the way we think what we see is the actual way it really is or the final end to any of our actions. There is no answer to why bad things happen to good people other than there are no good people, we are all sinners and it is God who made us for Him and our greatest Good is there. Even Jesus is said to have learned from suffering
No one but God can give you the answers needed for repentance. Ask, and it shall be opened to you. Seek and you shall find. One must be disposed to accept it though.
I
incense
Guest
This is not an intellectual explanation, but only my own humble experience.
I tend to judge what is good as what feels good, what is pleasant, what takes less work, pain or hardship, what causes happiness. And sometimes I neglect my relationship with God, and instead of knowing the Person, I start thinking of Him as a “thing”, a bud, a sap, who takes all my **** and never reacts back. (Over and over, I get on track and then fall off!)
Because He loves me, and because He is who He is, I get rude awakenings that the world runs not on my preferences but on those of the Maker. When I read those OT stories, I tremble with fear that I may do something to deserve God’s wrath. That my children may suffer because of my actions, or even strangers. What a heavy responsibilty we all have!
Just as my good actions bring good into the world, my bad actions bring bad. Or it is better to say that my bad actions prevent good from coming. Yeah, often God mercifully fixes my mistakes so people don’t suffer as they should, but sometimes He lets me feel the pain to wake me up. Probably like the OT.
Because if I never wake up, there is a serious consequence, permanent separation from God. Not to mention all those I help bring down along the way.
So what I’m saying is that God is challenging you now. That’s why you feel so strongly pulled. He loves you and is guiding you either away from something evil, or into a deeper truth. (You didn’t pray for deeper understanding right before you think you lost your faith? I always add the word “gently” whenever I ask Him to show me something now.) And yet, He makes me so angry that He doesn’t spell it out clearly what it is He expects us to know or learn. There’s so much deception in the world yelling at us, and He speaks with a soft voice!
But you’ll get it, if you keep seeking. It’s just that sometimes He’s wanting to teach you something more than what you’re wanting. So you have to go through this huge rig-a-marole which you’re always glad afterwards that you did, but would never, ever want to do again. IF you sincerely seek with your heart, He WILL answer.
So is it that you think God is mean sometimes, or that He’s not wimpy all the time? Did He cause the death of those babies, or did the parents by their evil actions? Only their human bodies died, what about their souls? If the children could not grow up to do evil actions, were they better off in eternity? It’s sobering to think that my actions could influence my children so that their souls die along with their bodies. I would prefer they (and me) die now then live a prosperous life and go to hell. May God be merciful to us.
I tend to judge what is good as what feels good, what is pleasant, what takes less work, pain or hardship, what causes happiness. And sometimes I neglect my relationship with God, and instead of knowing the Person, I start thinking of Him as a “thing”, a bud, a sap, who takes all my **** and never reacts back. (Over and over, I get on track and then fall off!)
Because He loves me, and because He is who He is, I get rude awakenings that the world runs not on my preferences but on those of the Maker. When I read those OT stories, I tremble with fear that I may do something to deserve God’s wrath. That my children may suffer because of my actions, or even strangers. What a heavy responsibilty we all have!
Just as my good actions bring good into the world, my bad actions bring bad. Or it is better to say that my bad actions prevent good from coming. Yeah, often God mercifully fixes my mistakes so people don’t suffer as they should, but sometimes He lets me feel the pain to wake me up. Probably like the OT.
Because if I never wake up, there is a serious consequence, permanent separation from God. Not to mention all those I help bring down along the way.
So what I’m saying is that God is challenging you now. That’s why you feel so strongly pulled. He loves you and is guiding you either away from something evil, or into a deeper truth. (You didn’t pray for deeper understanding right before you think you lost your faith? I always add the word “gently” whenever I ask Him to show me something now.) And yet, He makes me so angry that He doesn’t spell it out clearly what it is He expects us to know or learn. There’s so much deception in the world yelling at us, and He speaks with a soft voice!
But you’ll get it, if you keep seeking. It’s just that sometimes He’s wanting to teach you something more than what you’re wanting. So you have to go through this huge rig-a-marole which you’re always glad afterwards that you did, but would never, ever want to do again. IF you sincerely seek with your heart, He WILL answer.
So is it that you think God is mean sometimes, or that He’s not wimpy all the time? Did He cause the death of those babies, or did the parents by their evil actions? Only their human bodies died, what about their souls? If the children could not grow up to do evil actions, were they better off in eternity? It’s sobering to think that my actions could influence my children so that their souls die along with their bodies. I would prefer they (and me) die now then live a prosperous life and go to hell. May God be merciful to us.
S
SanctusEnigma40
Guest
Earnest Bunbury:
Earnest Bunbury:
In the same way you do not what you are talking about, and pontificating and/or speaking to me in a condescending or judging tone is not going to cut it. Questioning my motives is not going to do it either. I will reiterate: I couldn’t care less what you think about my motives for doing this, or your judgement on me, or your attitude towards someone who thinks like me.
Earnest Bunbury:
I simply find myself unable to believe that is OK for God to commit unspeakable acts of cruelty, Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, Killing of Babies, Killing of Children, Killing the suckling, Killing the innocent for the sins of the fathers, killing the innocent with the guilty altogether, committing acts of Vindictiveness, Belligerence, and the list goes on and on. In the Old testament He excel in smiting and killing by the thousands even His own people that he say that he loves. The very people who he went to the trouble to take out fro egypt to himself. He is suppose to act like God and be patient (always) not to be short fused. Every time he gets pissed, He will kill by the thousands. Isin’t he suppose to be long suffering? and patient? Always?? I am not so horrified that He kill, because He is the one who gives life on the first place, but He is suppose to exhibit “Always” the same attributes that christian like to ascribe to him whenever they think of God: Patient, Slow to Anger, Long Suffering, Like a Loving Father who is patient, Merciful, Kind, etc.
How come in the Old testament He is so short fused, and angry, and pissed all the time? He Kills and kills, and is OK! HE kills babies, and comand to kill babies and Christian say is OK. Christian say is OK, Just and Holy for God to do this.
All I am saying, is: I find myself unable to buy this! I find myself unable to believe that God is justified in doing all of this. Now what I am looking in this forum, and many other places too, is a good answer that will allow me to be able to believe that God is justified in committing all this atrocities in the Old Testament.
I want for someone to come up with a good and reasonable argument or a good answer as to : What sense of Justice is God fulfilling in killing the innocent?
If He kills only the guilty, I say nothing!, but in the OT, he excels in killing the inocent too.
If your answer is going to be that we are all guilty, and sinners, exactly explain to me How is a Baby a sinner and a guilty person.
If your answer is going to be that God is justify in doing all this atrocities because he is God, may I kindly remind you that “Might does not make right”.
Spot pontificating, judging, condemning, and condescending, and give me a good answer, or a good explanation for all of this.
I still cannot wait for a good answer to this questions.
I know you reiterate this, but you do not give a good reason for doing so! How come prescribing our sense of good onto God is arrogance? Please be specific!
Earnest Bunbury:
I couldn’t care less if you think I that I am here to learn or not. Couldn’t care less if you think my motives are honest and sincere or not. I know exactly what I am doing and why am doing it. If God exist, He knows what my motives are, and that is enough for me. I do not appreciate your condescending tone on me. I am also conversing about this things with many other people to get a good answer too. I was Christian for many many years, and very devoted one. But I lost my faith because of the Bible. I am sick and tire of people who use to know me as a sincere devoted believer, to know say that maybe i was not really a sincere believer in the first place, since I have now left the faith. They just do not know what they are talking about.
In the same way you do not what you are talking about, and pontificating and/or speaking to me in a condescending or judging tone is not going to cut it. Questioning my motives is not going to do it either. I will reiterate: I couldn’t care less what you think about my motives for doing this, or your judgement on me, or your attitude towards someone who thinks like me.
Earnest Bunbury:
Here you go again with your pontification, judgement, and condescending tone. Who is out of hand rejecting things anyway? Since when asking for a good reason to believe something is “Out of hand rejection”?
I simply find myself unable to believe that is OK for God to commit unspeakable acts of cruelty, Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, Killing of Babies, Killing of Children, Killing the suckling, Killing the innocent for the sins of the fathers, killing the innocent with the guilty altogether, committing acts of Vindictiveness, Belligerence, and the list goes on and on. In the Old testament He excel in smiting and killing by the thousands even His own people that he say that he loves. The very people who he went to the trouble to take out fro egypt to himself. He is suppose to act like God and be patient (always) not to be short fused. Every time he gets pissed, He will kill by the thousands. Isin’t he suppose to be long suffering? and patient? Always?? I am not so horrified that He kill, because He is the one who gives life on the first place, but He is suppose to exhibit “Always” the same attributes that christian like to ascribe to him whenever they think of God: Patient, Slow to Anger, Long Suffering, Like a Loving Father who is patient, Merciful, Kind, etc.
How come in the Old testament He is so short fused, and angry, and pissed all the time? He Kills and kills, and is OK! HE kills babies, and comand to kill babies and Christian say is OK. Christian say is OK, Just and Holy for God to do this.
All I am saying, is: I find myself unable to buy this! I find myself unable to believe that God is justified in doing all of this. Now what I am looking in this forum, and many other places too, is a good answer that will allow me to be able to believe that God is justified in committing all this atrocities in the Old Testament.
I want for someone to come up with a good and reasonable argument or a good answer as to : What sense of Justice is God fulfilling in killing the innocent?
If He kills only the guilty, I say nothing!, but in the OT, he excels in killing the inocent too.
If your answer is going to be that we are all guilty, and sinners, exactly explain to me How is a Baby a sinner and a guilty person.
If your answer is going to be that God is justify in doing all this atrocities because he is God, may I kindly remind you that “Might does not make right”.
Spot pontificating, judging, condemning, and condescending, and give me a good answer, or a good explanation for all of this.
I still cannot wait for a good answer to this questions.
- Status