God is NOT as concerned with Individuals as people want to think

[excaliber]

Emergency will robinson! Danger! Danger!
God is not irrelevant in your life, I promise, and I don’t ever promise, since the Bible warns against it!
YES YOU ARE HIS BELOVED, there, now you have read this and the words will stay in your brain forever for you to consider
whenever you want!

The problem is, Hitler and Bin Laden and all the worst and evil
criminals are also His beloved and He loves them as much as
we love our own parents or children. They were born for good,
not evil, the plan was for them to be good, but He gave them
free will. As long as a person has life, they can change their
mind and be good, and even fight for good, and even change
the whole world for the better!

That is why we must respect every living person. Jesus laid
down His life for them, and who are we to show the least
disrespect for God’s beloved? It is a spiritual war we fight,
not against flesh and blood.

I thought the church as a whole was beloved. I thought the whole church was christs bride…not billions of billions of brides.

 

[beckycmarie]

I thought the church as a whole was beloved. I thought the whole church was christs bride…not billions of billions of brides.

Here, Excaliber. A link to a searchable Catechism of the Catholic Church. Put in the word “love,” and learn the truth.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I thought the church as a whole was beloved. I thought the whole church was christs bride…not billions of billions of brides.

Do you believe that every person who comes to finally choose God and reach heaven, via purgation or otherwise, is given God’s infinite mercy such that their suffering on earth is recompensed as the worthy sacrifice it was?

 

[fhansen]

I thought the church as a whole was beloved. I thought the whole church was christs bride…not billions of billions of brides.

I’m not sure where this idea comes from. God doesn’t create groups. He creates individuals. I think you’ll have a much greater love and even respect for God if you see how much He can and does love us individually. Loving people as groups somehow doesn’t even sound realistic anyway.Take up beckycmarie on her advice and research the CCC.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

That sounded like one of those once saved always saved books. It seems to have taken every positive scripture in the bible and freely aplied it to every single christian.

This is not true, it takes work to have these privledges.

No. It takes grace: God’s grace, given to us freely. Desert does not come into it. This may be offensive to the desire to earn what God gives, but that is how it is. We deserve Hell, not God’s mercy & grace & love - those good things are available, but only as free gifts, not as wages to earn.​

There are different degrees of Righteousness
and dose the bible not say that the prayers of the righteous have MORE weight.

No, it doesn’t. It says this:​

10 Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. **The Lord is full of compassion and mercy. **

12 Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned.
13 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. **The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. **

• biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%205&version=31
  That is the passage you may be thinking of.

The quotation is from James 5. The passage undermines any idea that God does not care for the individual - for “the sick man” is an individual, & so is anyone, Elijah or Job or anyone else, who prays to God.

So yes if you can take every positive scripture in the bible and apply it to yourself, then you are a saint. And in that case yes you are important.

All Christians are saints - all Christians are the members & property of Christ, The Holy One of God.​

BTW, there is plenty of severe Scripture which also applies to Christians.

 

[dranzal]

Excaliber, you are pretty close. Most Catholics I run into in real life dismiss the whole “suffering problem” because they haven’t done the study and prayer to try to understand it. Interestingly, you get the part they always miss…the absolute eternal FACT of God’s Divine Plan (GDP) for our salvation.

You do know that is what the GDP is for, right? It is a plan for our salvation. Via the GDP, we (the righteous/saints/etc) get to spend eternity with God. You might even say, since God says He wills that none should perish, that the GDP is designed to win the most possible souls.

Now, what happens before we (individually btw) get to ENTER IN.

That’s right. We are JUDGED. (appropriate smilies for being judged). We are judged INDIVIDUALLY at death. Let’s assume here that God must know everything good, bad, and in between about us. He knows every nook and cranny of our souls and minds and hearts. Is it okay if we assume that? If so, He knows EVERY LAST detail about us.

Now, I love each of my children more than anyone else alive except, perhaps, their dad. Even we don’t know EVERY little detail like God does. He knows even our thoughts!

Perhaps you don’t believe he knows that much. Then the argument ends here because we are no longer talking about the same god. My God is ALL knowing.

You are very right that we are mistaken to say God loves like we do.

LUKE 11:
9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
11 And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him?

JESUS Himself compares our own feeble attempts at parental love with the PERFECT love of GOD the FATHER. Please note that Jesus is not suggesting that we will “get” anything we ask for. He specifically refers to asking for and receiving the “good Spirit”.

It is not logical to assert that a God who notes every detail of our individual earthly lives including thoughts does not love us individually.

The parable of the lost sheep applies here as well. Excaliber, this is not an account of a God who doesn’t love individually and completely…

LUKE 15

4 What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing:
6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance. 8 Or what woman having ten groats; if she lose one groat, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying: Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

 

[dranzal]

Now, regarding pain and suffering.

The Church teaches that suffering is redemptive. Our humble acceptance of our “cross” shows our trust in the GDP.

This is very important. Everyone has some kind of tribulation or “cross”. This is how God refines us. What separates us (Christians) from everyone else is our HOPE. Why hope? Hope for that which has been promised (heaven) is the answer to the problem of suffering. Without heaven, suffering and pain is pure random cruelty. With heaven, suffering and pain become our soul “stainguard”.

I have crosses of my own. I held my 2 year old baby boy while trying desperately, though unsuccessfully, to do CPR after we found him in the pool. I heard the doctor say those awful words usually reserved for Lifetime movies “I’m sorry, but…” I endured this and, with God’s grace and everyone’s prayers, persevered. I quickly saw reason to rejoice in grief. I have been changed forever for the better because of this experience.

While I long to see Gabriel again, I would not want anyone to take away this cross. God fashioned it for me. DH has a very similar, though not identical, one. God is using it for our good and, I’m sure, for the good of those around us.

God PROMISES in Romans 8 that ALL things work to good for those who love Him. ALL things!

Excerpt from Peter Kreeft: peterkreeft.com/topics/suffering.htm

What then is suffering to the Christian? It is Christ’s invitation to us to follow him. Christ goes to the cross, and we are invited to follow to the same cross. Not because it is the cross, but because it is his. Suffering is blessed not because it is suffering but because it is his. Suffering is not the context that explains the cross; the cross is the context that explains suffering. The cross gives this new meaning to suffering; it is now not only between God and me but also between Father and Son. The first between is taken up into the Trinitarian exchanges of the second. Christ allows us to participate in his cross because that is his means of allowing us to participate in the exchanges of the Trinity, to share in the very inner life of God.

*True love, unlike popular sentimental substitutes, is willing to suffer. Love is not “luv.” Love is the cross. Our problem at first, the sheer problem of suffering, was a cross without a Christ. We must never fall into the opposite and equal trap of a Christ without a cross. *

*In summary, Jesus did three things to solve the problem of suffering. First, he came. He suffered with us. He wept. Second, in becoming man he transformed the meaning of our suffering: it is now part of his work of redemption. Our death pangs become birth pangs for heaven, not only for ourselves but also for those we love. Third, he died and rose. Dying, he paid the price for sin and opened heaven to us; rising, he transformed death from a hole into a door, from an end into a beginning. *

 

[dranzal]

Are you saying that children die so that we have the chance to feed them???

This is such a simple question, but the response requires more depth.

I cannot say no for it would be untrue. However, I cannot simply say yes.

Children who die, suffer, hunger and thirst, are abused, etc. all have their own walk with their Creator. Their suffering is redemptive and potentially good for their souls.

At the same time, we who were born in relative luxury have been given much more. It is good for our souls to recognize the suffering of others and DO something about it. This is charity, a work of mercy.

Did God create the children so that they could suffer, creating an opportunity for us to be charitable? Of course not. He created them to know, love, and serve Him in this life so they can spend eternity with Him. Just like us.

 

[dranzal]

Sorry, excaliber, one more thought…

I firmly, sincerely, and completely believe that God is in the details. I didn’t always recognize His hand in things, but once I did, it was often obvious. Because I believe God is all poweful and all knowing, I don’t believe in coincidence. I believe everything is by design (GDP).

**This is an excerpt from Peter Kreeft’s Heaven: The Heart’s Deepest Longing pages 172 and 173…

**Roman 8:28, perhaps the most spectacularly astonishing verse in the Bible, is literally true for every cell in the Body of Christ: “All things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to His purpose.” Every atom in the quadrillion-mile universe and every “chance” event in its trillion-year history is deliberately and perfectly planned and controlled by God for the ultimate end of our good, our heavenly joy. Galaxies revolve and dinosaurs breed and rain falls and people fall in love and uncles smoke cheap cigars and people lose their jobs and we all die–all (that’s what it says, “all”) for our good, the finished product, God’s work of art, the Kingdom of Heaven. There’s nothing outside heaven except hell. Earth is not outside heaven; it is heaven’s workshop, heaven’s womb.
What about evil and suffering? If they are not merely illusions, as Buddhism and Christian Science teach, they too, though not created by God, become part of Providence’s perfect plan for our ultimate good. Augustine says, “God would not allow any evil to exist in his works unless his omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil.” (Enchiridion). The solution to the "problem of evil is time. It’s a fairy tale; and all God’s lovers live happily ever after.
This is not fantasy or mysticism or extravaganza; it’s the plain bare bones of Christianity. It’s not a philosophy, a piece of human speculation; it’s not even a theology, a human interpretation of divine revelation. It’s a divinely declared fact. To deny that everything, even evil, works for good is to deny at least one of three rock-bottom fundamentals that, when combined, make this conclusion inescapable: (I)God is all good, willing only our good; (2)God is all powerful, able to do whatever he wills; and (3)God is present now, doing his thing in all times and places. To deny any one of these is to deny that God is God. But to affirm all three is to affirm total providence, total heaven, total joy in the last analysis. Those are the only options.

 

[SarahR]

Did you not read in the Bible about the hope that is in you? How God knew you before you were formed in the womb?

Why are you content to not know? Ask God and he will surely tell you. The Church tells all of us to read our Bibles so that we can come to know God better. I also recommend getting a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

God bless,
Ed

Hi Ed,

I believe in everything the Church teaches, I’ve read the catechism/taken classes/read apologetics books for years (still have plenty to learn of course). I do not dis-believe anything the Church teaches.

What I DO doubt, however, is my perception of God’s love for me (us). I know He is Love, I know He loved us enough to send His only Son, knows how many hairs on our heads, that Christ would have sacrificed Himself for any single one of us, and He looks at us singularly when we are in the Adoration chapel. Blows my mind.

I just don’t know whether or not Jesus really cares when little Billy is at bat during his little league baseball game. I don’t know if God really cares that Stephanie unjustly took credit at work for a great idea Lisa really came up with. These are the things I am okay not knowing.

I do know that He wants us…you, me…in heaven with Him forever. And we are wretched creatures in our sinfulness. He assigns us tremendous value.

What tips the balance, though, seems to be the Holy Eucharist. Understanding that Christ fully completely totally gives Himself to us when we receive Communion. That is intimacy defined. Holding nothing back—I suppose not even those comparatively insignificant details.

I’m completely open to being corrected, I just didn’t understand what the virtue of hope has to do with whether or not Jesus wants to be my Buddy.

Blessings!

 

[fhansen]

I like this from Pope Benedicts “Jesus of Nazareth”:

If you follow the will of God, you know that in spite of all the terrible things that happen to you, you will never lose a final refuge. You know that the foundation of the world is love, so that even when no human being can or will help you, you may go on, trusting in the One who loves you. Yet this trust, which we cultivate on the authority of Scripture and at the invitation of the risen Lord, is something quite different from the reckless defiance of God that would make God our servant.

 

[SarahR]

I like this from Pope Benedicts “Jesus of Nazareth”:

If you follow the will of God, you know that in spite of all the terrible things that happen to you, you will never lose a final refuge. You know that the foundation of the world is love, so that even when no human being can or will help you, you may go on, trusting in the One who loves you. Yet this trust, which we cultivate on the authority of Scripture and at the invitation of the risen Lord, is something quite different from the reckless defiance of God that would make God our servant.

That is a beautiful quote—thank you for posting it.
Blessings on your evening-

 

[excaliber]

But it’s also true that in the end, we’re all in the same hopeless boat-destined for death-unless for the hope of eternal life. And it can be said that most evil, while allowed by God, is either committed by man or could be prevented by him, as in the case of starvation. In the end it appears that God is most concerned with our eternal destines, while time spent here on earth-how we used it- determines those destinies.

This is what I have been saying all along.
No God is not concerned with every detail of your life…but he gave you a church to acomplish HIS WILL which is for you to reach heaven.

God is aware of us as Individuals.
But his main concern is not with individuals.

The proof is in the pudding…look around.

 

[excaliber]

Their hope is in God as with all of us. It isn’t a mystery. They die because we allow their killing. God gave us the life we are wasting by the governments we create. We humans are the ones uncaring for the poor and hungry, not God. God gave us the oil we fight for. God gave us the air and water we pollute our of ignorance and/or greed. God gave us the land we claim as our own to grow the food He gave us.

God gave us the capacity to be self aware and learn, grow, and develope as a people called humanity. God gave us everything to exclude nothing.

He gave us written instructions how to be us and a legitiamte authority to make those instructions relevant as times change. Its both easy and complicated and not always easy.

God also gave Himself to us. Only love would do that so God is love.

The only think I think it safe to say He didn’t give us are puppet strings or a rigid path forced to follow. We are rational free living human beings that have elected to make our own choices. What we do with them is entirely up to us but to say God does not care about each individuals choice and therfore each individual is to put a limit on His love. It should go without saying God is limitless.

You said it!!!

You said US!

You said God gave US, over and over. Just as I said, Gods main concern is US as a whole.

I have also said a million times that yes God is aware of Individuals, he KNOWS every hair on our head. But the INDIVIDUAL is not Gods main concern. It is the Church as a whole. Look at the world around you, and use your God given reason. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[fhansen]

This is what I have been saying all along.
No God is not concerned with every detail of your life…but he gave you a church to acomplish HIS WILL which is for you to reach heaven.

God is aware of us as Individuals.
But his main concern is not with individuals.

The proof is in the pudding…look around.

OK, but I’m saying that He still loves us as individuals with the most powerful and unconditional love that can’t be imagined-the suffering of saints and sinners notwithstanding. I don’t pretend to have all the answers as to how this is reconciled, but God has apparently determined beforehand that it’s all worth it in the end and I believe that the vast majority of people far and away agree with Him, tacitly at least, that life’s worth it even in this screwed-up world of suffering because we by and large continue to cling to and love the life we’ve been given, preferring existence to nonexistence.

 

[excaliber]

God did not forgive these sinners in one fell swoop. He forgave each person, and by forgiving all, this shows that he does care greatly for the individual person. God must provide an opportunity for ALL to know him so that none is more loved than another. Therefore, every person on this planet has the opportunity to know Christ. This shows that God cares for all of us.

God loves each of us individually. When you say that priests are more important than others, you are sadly mistaken. In society, you need the blue collar workers (the plumbers, farmers, construction workers, factory workers, etc.) and the white collar workers (government, businessmen, investors, business owners, scientists, etc.) to make a society function. Is a white collar worker more important because his task is more difficult and more in the public eye? NO! The blue collar worker is just as important, without him jobs would not get done. They simply have different roles. This is the same way with God. The Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, and Priests may all have important roles to carry Christ’s message to all people, but we the “blue collar” workers of Christ must take that message and live it, thus doing equally important work as the “White Collar” servants of God. Some jobs bring us closer to God than others, but, all in all, each person is needed to create the Kingdom of God here on earth. With no missing parts. God must care about each individual in order to care about the big picture.

This is a good example…
Ok so the Popular belief is that God Loves us individualy A GREAT DEAL. So we find any little thing to try and suport the belief.

God Forgives sins…well ofcourse or Christ sacrifise would be wasted…and everyone would go to hell wich is not acording to HIS WILL.

I can forgive someone if they say they won’t do it anymore,without having some great love for that person.

 

[beckycmarie]

I can forgive someone if they say they won’t do it anymore,without having some great love for that person.

Would you die for someone else? Could you do that without “some great love for that person?”

 

[excaliber]

Emergency will robinson! Danger! Danger!
God is not irrelevant in your life, I promise, and I don’t ever promise, since the Bible warns against it!
YES YOU ARE HIS BELOVED, there, now you have read this and the words will stay in your brain forever for you to consider
whenever you want!

The problem is, Hitler and Bin Laden and all the worst and evil
criminals are also His beloved and He loves them as much as
we love our own parents or children. They were born for good,
not evil, the plan was for them to be good, but He gave them
free will. As long as a person has life, they can change their
mind and be good, and even fight for good, and even change
the whole world for the better!

That is why we must respect every living person. Jesus laid
down His life for them, and who are we to show the least
disrespect for God’s beloved? It is a spiritual war we fight,
not against flesh and blood.

You have not spoken to hitler or binladen…who knows if they felt loved or not…but both have a high disregard for individual human life.

They aparently thought God agreed with them.

 

[excaliber]

Do you believe that every person who comes to finally choose God and reach heaven, via purgation or otherwise, is given God’s infinite mercy such that their suffering on earth is recompensed as the worthy sacrifice it was?

Life in heaven IS the goal.
And aparently there are different rewards in heaven.

But dose that not proove my point.
That Is Gods will. Now what happens after that we don’t know.

Look around, the Rules of the game seem to be Kill or be killed for many peoples lives.

Now some have money and a better life then others, its easy for them to think about all that lovey dovey stuff.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

This is what I have been saying all along.

No God is not concerned with every detail of your life…but he gave you a church to acomplish HIS WILL which is for you to reach heaven.

God is aware of us as Individuals.
But his main concern is not with individuals.

The proof is in the pudding…look around.

God’s main concern IS with individuals and has instituted His Church as His primary instrument in showing us His main concern.

The existence of seemingly unjust suffering is not evidence of God’s lack of concern for individuals, but only our lack of understanding the reason for suffering and the meaning of “justice”.

You demote God’s concern for us individual humans for improper reason, which suggests a need to learn more about the Church’s understanding of suffering, and her (the true) understanding of the meaning of justice.