God is NOT as concerned with Individuals as people want to think

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every time you deny God’s love, you are calling God a liar.
That is SO not true… at least not SUBJECTIVELY speaking… and sometimes we humans do not do well with objective truth… In other words:

I have often denied God’s love… because i was never loved by a human being… at least not loved un-conditionally and i believe that if it is not unconditional, it is not really love…

Anyway, because i have never (to speak of) felt loved, I still struggle to belive (sometimes) with all my heart and soul that God loves me… I know in my head that He does, but my heart is often a different story…

Does that mean i (& / or others who have “been there”) am calling God a liar?? NOt at all. I belive the Word of God… God is more real to me than people are… yet i am a frail human being who cannot always and everywhere believe with all my heart and soul and mind something that does not always seem real to me… and when you think about it… most people could probably sya the same thing or something similar… because NONE Of us really can totally comprehend the love of God… not in this world anyway…
time to cut the nonsense and accept the fact of His love, if you are honestly seeking the Him.
that may be easy for you to say… not so easy for others…
 
Excaliber,
If you haven’t already, take a moment to study the quote that beckycmarie posted just above me very closely. Take a couple minutes just to think about the title of the document itself, for it’s actually pretty remarkable - God IS Love. ]
If Excalibir doesn’t want to listen to anything beckymarie has to say, i can’t say i blame him… She is very harsh-sounding…
 
glad you said that, that is exactly what I don’t believe. For one this is not an infalible teaching…it can’t be.
It is very sad if you don’t believe God loves you… I know how you feel because i have often felt that way… but most of the time i (now) feel that God does love me… Yes, it is hard to believe with all my heart, esp when bad things happen to me…
Have many bad things happened to you?? Did you not feel loved as a child??
 
Beckycmarie is trying to present a sound religious argument, but it’s not one that’s going to necessarily work with a former JW (at least at this point). Also, in fairness, the problem with messaging is that you lose the nuances of voice inflection and tone. What some people might construe as compassionate often comes out harsh.
 
we are on the same page…but you have experienced something I have not.
I admit I have not been to adoration…that is my next top priority.

but other then that we are on the same page.
that’s encouraging…

could you be more specific - What do you most feel we are on the same page with??
 
That is SO not true… at least not SUBJECTIVELY speaking… and sometimes we humans do not do well with objective truth… In other words:

I have often denied God’s love… because i was never loved by a human being… at least not loved un-conditionally and i believe that if it is not unconditional, it is not really love…

Anyway, because i have never (to speak of) felt loved, I still struggle to belive (sometimes) with all my heart and soul that God loves me… I know in my head that He does, but my heart is often a different story…

Does that mean i (& / or others who have “been there”) am calling God a liar?? NOt at all. I belive the Word of God… God is more real to me than people are… yet i am a frail human being who cannot always and everywhere believe with all my heart and soul and mind something that does not always seem real to me… and when you think about it… most people could probably sya the same thing or something similar… because NONE Of us really can totally comprehend the love of God… not in this world anyway… that may be easy for you to say… not so easy for others…
Well, distracted, since you addressed me directly I will respond. Truth is not subjective. There are those who give in to liberal thinking and deny that there is objective truth, and thus create their own belief system separate from what we are commanded to believe.

Just because one denies the truth doesn’t make it any less true. I, for example, could deny atoms exist. After all, I can’t see them. No scientist has shown me a single atom in person, all I’ve ever heard are theories and seen drawings of these so-called atoms, but until I can see one for myself, I’m just not going to listen to anything these scientists say on the topic.

However, the fact that I don’t feel like believing in atoms or don’t want to, doesn’t make them any less real. And for me to insist to others that atoms don’t exist just because I won’t accept their existence, would make me foolish indeed.
 
Beckycmarie is trying to present a sound religious argument, but it’s not one that’s going to necessarily work with a former JW (at least at this point). Also, in fairness, the problem with messaging is that you lose the nuances of voice inflection and tone. What some people might construe as compassionate often comes out harsh.
true enough…
 
Truth is not subjective.
You totally misunderstood me. I did not say that truth was subjective… not even close. All i meant to say was that a person can have a subjective truth going on in his or her soul/mind/heart… You can “KNOW” God loves you but if you don’t feel it because of your subjective reality… well… you are going to have problems Totally believing it… If i let my subjective reality rule, i would definitely be in trouble… Instead, i believe what Jesus and the Church teach, which is objective truth.
 
You totally misunderstood me. I did not say that truth was subjective… not even close. All i meant to say was that a person can have a subjective truth going on in his or her soul/mind/heart… You can “KNOW” God loves you but if you don’t feel it because of your subjective reality… well… you are going to have problems Totally believing it… If i let my subjective reality rule, i would definitely be in trouble… Instead, i believe what Jesus and the Church teach, which is objective truth.
Thanks for the clarification. I was scratching my head at your first sentence back there.

The problem boils down to this. We do not begin with the devotion of our hearts. Faith usually goes like this: obedience first leads to understanding, and then devotion of the heart follows.

If you try to start with devotion of the heart, you’ll get nowhere. Devotion is a grace that comes from obedience. Instead of finding the truth, you’ll likely fall into traps that “feel” good to you. Often what “feels” good to us often isn’t good for us. One has to start with obedience and then let God do the rest. Conversion cannot happen without obedience first.

Bro. Ignatius Mary who used to be a Baptist minister writes about this very thing in his essay, Obedience, the First and Foundational Virtue.

Here’s an excerpt that really brings home the point of the whole essay. I may have posted it already in this thread - I don’t recall. I link this a lot around CAF. 🙂
I have found obedience to be a salvation. Two examples:
  1. My Conversion to the Catholic Church: When I finally sat down and took a look at Scripture honestly (and literally) I found that it was the Catholic Church, not the Baptist Church who truly interpreted Scripture literally. (i.e., the Real Presence, the Chair of Peter). When I looked at history I found that, too, the Catholics were right after all. When confronted with these Truths, I had a decision to make. Either obey Truth, or follow delusion—either become Catholic, or remain Protestant. I obeyed the Truth even though I didn’t understand it all.
  1. My devotion to Mary: Although I was convinced of the authority of the Church, the Real Presence, and all, I was not so convinced about the communion of the saints and the doctrine on Mary. That took a little while longer. But since I knew that the Church had the AUTHORITY to declare these doctrines, I simply OBEYED.
Was my “belief” from the heart? No. Did I “feel” the devotion to Mary? No. I merely obeyed the Church and believed in the doctrine of Mary and the communion of the saints out of shear cold obedience.
But then something odd happened. Almost immediately after I obeyed the Church on this and submitted my mind and will to the Church’s teachings, all of a sudden, I began to understand the doctrine. It was almost like magic. I began to “know” what these doctrines were about. In short order I found myself no longer obeying in cold submission, but in understanding also. I had come to understand and to agree with the doctrine through the reason of my mind.
Still, something was missing—the devotion of my heart. Within one month after the cold obedience, followed by the revelation of intellect given to me to understand (only after the obedience), finally came an understanding of the heart.
Within five months of confirmation I had joined the Lay Carmelite Order and now I am a professed brother (in private vows) in the Order of the Legion of St. Michael working with Mary in spiritual warfare.
I can give other examples of this, but the chronology is always the same:
  1. shear cold obedience
  2. understanding of intellect
  3. understanding and application of heart and spirit
Without the obedience, the undersanding and application of heart would not have happened. Now, most of the time, my obedience is warm, not cold, but I do sometimes come up against some things that I want to resist. It is then that the cold obedience must happen.
God tells us in Scripture that obedience is greater than sacrifice.
 
Excaliber needs our patience and prayers. He is very depressed and has made several attempts to contact the Catholic Church and make friends unsuccessfully. (Search some of his other threads) He doesn’t understand why God would allow him to be in more or less a cult for so long. Almost all of his family members are either JWs or Seventh Day Adventists, and so are virulent anti-Catholics. In fact, as a former JW, he has to sneak to Mass, because if it was found out that he had left the JW’s, he would be permanently “disfellowed” and shunned by virtually all of the family and friends he has. They would be basically forbidden from talking to him or contacting him. Because the JW’s believe the end is coming in our lifetime, people are encouraged to spend all of their time prosyletizing, since saving souls in these last days is most critical. Charity was irrelevant, since the second coming would be in a few years. People are discouraged from higher education and marriage, and so Excaliber never developed any serious relationships, and has no education to fall back on for a job. He only discovered the truth after working at the JW headquarters in New York, and found, after all of his years of service, devoting almost 24 hours a day to his faith, that he was thrown out of his living accomodations with no warning and no place to go. He also discovered plenty of hypocricy and corruption there. Since he now lives with a family member, if anyone found out, he could be thrown out of his own home onto the street. The JWs are ALL about the organization, and are very tight-knit. You are made to feel welcome, you are immediately brought into the organization, and you are quickly paired up with people to make the JWs your social and religious network. Catholicism, in many ways, is the polar opposite of the JWs. (Not to mention that the JW’s are non-Trinitarian). When Excaliber has gone to Catholic Churches, he has generally been ok with the experience, but no one at the church door welcomed him, asked if he was new, or directed him to resources for newcomers interested in the faith. He has been unable to contact the (likely) severely overworked priest at the parish. Any attempt to show interest in converting to Catholicism has required him to jump through a multitude of hoops just to get anything started (so far). The idea of staying after Mass for “coffee and doughnuts” to meet people in many ways seems foreign and almost offensive to him. The JWs would have a multitude of organized religious activities that EVERYONE would participate in, not just a few. (Not to mention that almost everyone in the JWs is highly active in their faith, whereas there is a huge range of participation and belief among Catholics). He is also a fairly shy person by nature, and about the only African-American at his parish. (He knows NO ONE that is Catholic, besides those of us here online.) Everything that he has known is his life religiously has been turned upside-down, and he’s having difficulty coping. Is it a wonder that he is depressed and frustrated?

Before we get too hostile, angry, or frustrated with Excaliber, I thought that it was important that we all know where he’s coming from.
Very charitably put.
By the Way. War Eagle!, Bro:p
 
The problem boils down to this. We do not begin with the devotion of our hearts.
actualy, that is where i began. I had fallen away from Jesus yrs ago and it wws the longing for intimacy with Him that made me seek Him again and then, i was led back into the Church…
if u try to start with devotion of the heart, you’ll get nowhere.
Well, that wasn’t the case in my situation… I won’t say Truth didn’t have a part in… but mostly, i wanted to be once again close to Jesus… I got what i wanted…
:hug3:
Often what “feels” good to us often isn’t good for us.
Yeah… for sure… I could write a book on that one…
 
It is very sad if you don’t believe God loves you… I know how you feel because i have often felt that way… but most of the time i (now) feel that God does love me… Yes, it is hard to believe with all my heart, esp when bad things happen to me…
Have many bad things happened to you?? Did you not feel loved as a child??
I have never been loved period…let alone just as a child.
If you only knew.

In the Jehovahs witness church love is used as bait to draw in more converts. But if you doubt…an elder will come before the church and say distracted is here by disfellowshiped from Gods organization…after that your own mother will have nothing to do with you. I remember in like second or third grade, thinking about my whole school being killed by Jehovah…and I would have to take the bodys outside cus I was the only jw in my class…that type of coldness is taught at a young young age.

By the time I got to the headquarters of Jehovahs witnesses…I was a machine, I felt nothing…and nothing botherd me. I am not the only one…after years of bethel you can become very distant.

I remember being on stage and in my speech I anounced that an elder had an anouncement to make…I stood on stage infront of the whole congregation while an elder anounced that a young man about 19 years of age, someone I cared a great deal about was disfellowshiped…then he sat down and I had to finish my speech as if nothing was wrong. when my friend was basicaly anounced as dead…I could not show any remorse no compashion.
I was not going to get married at bethel…so I had to kill those emotions…I had to kill all emotions. I was a tool and I had to sharpen my skills to make myself a
more useful tool…or be an outcast at bethel…trust me…death is better then being an outcast at bethel. Because if you are an outcast you are not a person…your an “it”…an it that they will try to get rid of.

mabey I don’t know what Love is…mabey I have never seen such a thing.

I don’t know if my argument is completely wrong however.
 
Well, then, Excaliber should listen to us to understand what he’s/she’s going to be learning in RCIA, and knock off the JW habits!

Actually, Excalie seems be rather violently doing precisely the OPPOSITE of what would be allowable as a JW, which is obviously a “rubber band” reaction to his/her newfound freedom of expression.

That’s cool, but there’s a need to tone it the heck DOWN, and learn instead of pontificating when pontificating is counterproductive!

I love you, Excalie, but… man… <grumble, fNARgoflarmgurflomitnerfuuuuur…>
You must be very knowledgeable indeed…tell ME what would and would not be aloud in the JW church?

LOL ruber band what??? are you a psychologist? or another one of those that feels they can read a thread…and then judge a human being based of a few posts?

Roll tide knows me much better…but I don’t get this garbage from him…he is actualy good at explaining the faith…without ticking people of.

Not that Im ticked off…LOL
 
that’s encouraging…

could you be more specific - What do you most feel we are on the same page with??
Its interesting…so far everything intellectualy…however you have experienced something during adoration that I have not.

I think we speak the same language so to speak, I understand your posts on this subject…they make sence…and most of what you say agree with.

Basicaly you post something…and Im like…yea man.
 
Im watching speaking of saints on ewtn.

Very interesting that the saints see
suffering as a purification. Mother teresa for example felt “the dark night of the sole”…this means I am not crazy…however Mother teresa concluded that God cared wether or not a poor dying individual had someone to hold them. VERY INTERESTING!!!

Its very hard for me to believe that Mother teresa was wrong…so this makes me think…If it was Gods Holy will for her to be there…then I would be forced to admit my error.

I was sure I was correct…now Im stuck in the middle.

Love can be defined as the willful doing good to others, it dose not have to be an emotional response.

However is everyone on this thread saying that God has an EMOTIONAL connection with EACH AND EVERY human?
 
However is everyone on this thread saying that God has an EMOTIONAL connection with EACH AND EVERY human?
In Isaiah 49: 15-16, the Lord said,
“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast?
And have no compassion on the child she has born? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands.”
You are engraved on the palm of God’s hands. Isn’t God affectionate? He is saying, “You are mine.” Isn’t that an intimate love?

When Lazarus died, Jesus wept. Doesn’t God have emotion?

God is not “emotional” like human beings, but God is love, and is full of compassion. He loves all of His children. He loves you.

Your description of JW sounds terrible. But do not allow the negative experience of the past impede your freedom of seeking Him and His true Church.

JW painted a wrong image of God in your mind. Since our belief is learned, it could also be unlearned. So unlearn JW and learn Catholicism.

God bless!
 
Excaliber needs our patience and prayers. …

Before we get too hostile, angry, or frustrated with Excaliber, I thought that it was important that we all know where he’s coming from.
Indeed, true! Quite the story.

Thanks for the info on JW “methods”. Very enlightening.

No more commentary from me. Best wishes to all in leading E into our wonderful home. Best of everything and most vehement prayers for you for your coming to know truth, from this rather crass fellow (that would be me), Excaliber.
 
Thank you, rolltide, for you insight back in post #113.

I definitely lost my patience and cool and instead of delivering the truth with charity, and I delivered it with a sledgehammer. I am guilty of that on occasion around here but today was particularly ugly. It is definitely a bad approach, and to Excaliber, I apologize for the unnecessary roughness.
 
Thank you, rolltide, for you insight back in post #113.

I definitely lost my patience and cool and instead of delivering the truth with charity, and I delivered it with a sledgehammer. I am guilty of that on occasion around here but today was particularly ugly. It is definitely a bad approach, and to Excaliber, I apologize for the unnecessary roughness.
Hey Im just glad your on are side, cus you bite…LOL just kiding.
 
Individuals Are NOT Gods main concern, they are given the church and that’s it.
Individuals ARE God’s main concern–they were not given the “church”, they ARE the CHURCH, when they choose to be a part of it. The way I think of it is this: The Church is the Body of Christ, made up of individuals. The “church” is the organization that explains and clarifies the Will of God through the Holy Spirit.

Another point I’d like to make is that God does not force us to seek Him, which may make Him seem aloof to individuals. But when we do decide to seek Him out, He pays particular and spectacular attention to us. The question is, when He does pay attention to us, do we bother to thank Him? Or do we just expect it, and take His love for granted?
 
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