God is NOT as concerned with Individuals as people want to think

[dranzal]

Hi Role tide

I read what beckycmarie copyed.
And I laughed as it seems to say what I have been saying all along.

here is a quote

since I wanted here—at the beginning of my Pontificate—to clarify some essential facts concerning the love which God mysteriously and gratuitously offers to man
end quote

Yes to “man”. is that not my point.
Let me repeat my point.

God loves “Mankind” and has given
“mankind” life, and free will.
God has also given his Son to save
“Mankind”.

Not any one individual.

God gave mankind as a whole good things…not an individual.

I can also proove my point with EVERYDAY reality.

For example…hunger
and birth defects…God gave “Mankind” the ability to reproduce.
This gift is for the human race as a whole…if God gave each individual one a great deal of attention…then babys would not be born with deformed lims. The fact is that God had nothing to do with those children born deformed or even joined at the hip. The imperfect human body was left to reproduce ALL ON ITS OWN, NO SPECIAL ATTENTION FROM GOD ON EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE.

My point is also proven with denominations in 2008. People are born in a world with thousands of churches claiming to be correct.

Now follow my logic please.

If Gods love is focused on individuals, you can make the argument that he lets people die of hunger, and get born with no arms and things because he feels that those things are not important.

However The church IS important,
and if a person is without at the BARE MINIMUM the church…then his very sole is in EXTREME danger. If you are not individualy given “AT THE BARE MINIMUM” the Church…then God dose NOT love you individualy as much as you say.
Now please explain the people who are apart of cults…cults that will eventualy destroy a persons faith in God…did I forget to mention that most ex jehovahs witnesses are athiests…I have spoken to many…and after hearing the storys of people who loved God just as much as any of you Catholics…but what did they get for loving God??? there lives destroyed…or depression so bad people are on medication…MEDICATION FOR TRYING TO SERVE GOD!!!
And the ironic thing is that most of them still don’t know about the catholic faith, yea you heard me, there search for God was the most distructive thing in there whole LIFE…and God still has not revealed his Church to them.

God makes sure mankind has the Church…not each individual,which you guys say he is madly in love with.

Guys I understand that you want to believe that God is interested in every detail of your individual life.
Im sorry to say it is IMPOSSIBLE for this to be true.
IMPOSSIBLE!!!
but you have not experienced and seen what others have, so I expect many to keep arguing…however I have an arsenal of proof…the most others can do is take a scripture ment for Christians as a whole…then try to apply it to themselves individualy. What ever rows your boat I guess.

But Its just like the Catholic church…I KNOW its the truth, people swear to me that its not…but I already know now.And I have an arsenal of proof to show them.

Its the same with my point here…I know its the truth, and I have an arsenal of proof to prove it.

Excaliber,

Two posts after this one, you request that someone respond to this post. You refer to “proof” of your position in it.

What is it that you consider proof that God does not love us individually and unconditionally?

 

[dranzal]

Im watching speaking of saints on ewtn.

Very interesting that the saints see
suffering as a purification. Mother teresa for example felt “the dark night of the sole”…this means I am not crazy…however Mother teresa concluded that God cared wether or not a poor dying individual had someone to hold them. VERY INTERESTING!!!

Its very hard for me to believe that Mother teresa was wrong…so this makes me think…If it was Gods Holy will for her to be there…then I would be forced to admit my error.

I was sure I was correct…now Im stuck in the middle.

Love can be defined as the willful doing good to others, it dose not have to be an emotional response.

However is everyone on this thread saying that God has an EMOTIONAL connection with EACH AND EVERY human?

Emotions are psychosomatic. They require both the physical and spiritual aspects. After the incarnation, Jesus had the capacity to love emotionally. I would presume that He still can and does. God the Father is not physical. His love is a pure act of the will.

He most certainly loves each of us. He loves the rich and the destitute the same. He loves the hungry. He loves the sinner.

Excaliber, we are also an example of this non-emotional love. We don’t know you personally, but we know that you have been created in the image and likeness of God. We know that, whether or not you become Catholic, hindu, muslim, athiest, etc, you are part of our human family. We love you and look forward to seeing you in this life and the next. This love we have for each other (including you) is not emotional, it is an act of the will. We, however, are sinful humans. How can I possibly assert that God has less capacity to love than we?

The starving child, abused child, suffering people do not imply that God doesn’t love. His love does not mean we will not suffer. His love means that, in this life, we will suffer. Suffering is redemptive. Suffering is the scalpel He wields to carve out the diseased parts of our souls. Through suffering, God is purifying us to ready us for heaven. Just as a father might allow his child (who he loves dearly) to learn something the “hard way” rather than doing everything himself so the child can avoid all suffering, God allows us to endure certain things in preparation of heaven.

Our crosses are all different. You say God could have kept you out of a cult if He had loved you. He certainly could have. Instead, because of His love for you and others, He allowed you to experience those painful years for many reasons. Some we can guess.

First, you will be a remarkably credible witness to others who are where you have been. If you let Him, God will reach them through you, His finely tuned instrument.

Second, perhaps your experience eventually drew you closer to truth.

Third, we have had the opportunity to meet you and to learn from you. We have also had the opportunity to express our own faith to you.

Yes, God’s plan for you has involved pain and suffering. He clearly trusts that you will accept it. “Thy will be done.”

 

[distracted]

I have never been loved period…let alone just as a child.

Neither have I… Or if was “loved” it was definitely not un-conditonal… and, as i said in another post, love that is not unconditional is not love at all…

…after that your own mother will have nothing to do with you.

Jesus tells us that if we do not “hate” our family members, children, even our very selves, we are not worthy of him… but He doesn’t mean this kind of thing… In the Catholic Church, someone who does terribly wrong (promote abortion, for example) basically ex-communicates him or herself… there isn’t the public spectacle of it (sometimes i wish there were, such as when John Kerry ran for office, said he was Catholic & yet said he was pro-abortion)… Anyway… You are right to attempt to enter the Catholic Church (i assume u are taking RCIA soon??)…
I have to warn you, though, Catholics can be very cold and uncaring… (as you have witnessed here on the forums, i believe…). Maybe it all just comes down to that same old thing: not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven… not those who believe but those who DO what they say they believe… will enter Heaven…
Jesus said there are few who find that narrow pathway to eternal life… probably because a lot of people are just content to make their lives in this world better, without thinking much of the next one (etc.).
Have you read St. Faustina’s diary? Yes she was a nun so maybe you think you can’t relate… but she went through many things that you and i have been or are going trhough… It is very interesting… She had visions of Hell and Purgatory (and Heaven, i think??)…

my whole school being killed by Jehovah…and I would have to take the bodys outside cus I was the only jw in my class…that type of coldness is taught at a young young age.

Why did you think the school would be killed by “Jehovah”?

I remember being on stage and in my speech I anounced that an elder had an anouncement to make…I stood on stage infront of the whole congregation while an elder anounced that a young man about 19 years of age, someone I cared a great deal about was disfellowshiped…then he sat down and I had to finish my speech as if nothing was wrong. when my friend was basicaly anounced as dead…I could not show any remorse no compashion.

Is that what made you get out of the JWs? I mean, what most got to you … so that you quit? i am thinking it was probably just that “straw and camel’s back” type of thing??

mabey I don’t know what Love is…mabey I have never seen such a thing.
.

I never knew love either until i found Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Of course, it is best (my opinion), when looking for a Church to spend time with Him in. to find a Church where you don’t know anyone… the human mind being waht it is, you will end up thinking about the people who attend tht Church… (etc)… and you will be distracted… Do you live in a big city where there is bound to be a Church available?

 

[beckycmarie]

Hey Im just glad your on are side, cus you bite…LOL just kiding.

I might have a stroke if I attempt an answer in this thread over in the philosophy forum, so I think I’ll just stay here.

The “God’s love is an absurdity” thread

:banghead:

 

[dranzal]

Jesus tells us that if we do not “hate” our family members, children, even our very selves, we are not worthy of him…

I’m pretty sure that He meant we need to try to detach ourselves from earthly things. That is not to say that He wants us to not love each other. That is the second of His two commandments. He means that God’s will is to reign supreme in our lives…above our family members, children, and ourselves.

We are not to place persons or things above God’s will.

 

[distracted]

Its interesting…so far everything intellectualy…however you have experienced something during adoration that I have not.

.

have you been to adoration? How long did you stay??

 

[excaliber]

have you been to adoration? How long did you stay??

I have never been. I only recently learned exactly what it was.

 

[excaliber]

Neither have I… Or if was “loved” it was definitely not un-conditonal… and, as i said in another post, love that is not unconditional is not love at all…

Jesus tells us that if we do not “hate” our family members, children, even our very selves, we are not worthy of him… but He doesn’t mean this kind of thing… In the Catholic Church, someone who does terribly wrong (promote abortion, for example) basically ex-communicates him or herself… there isn’t the public spectacle of it (sometimes i wish there were, such as when John Kerry ran for office, said he was Catholic & yet said he was pro-abortion)… Anyway… You are right to attempt to enter the Catholic Church (i assume u are taking RCIA soon??)…
I have to warn you, though, Catholics can be very cold and uncaring… (as you have witnessed here on the forums, i believe…). Maybe it all just comes down to that same old thing: not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven… not those who believe but those who DO what they say they believe… will enter Heaven…
Jesus said there are few who find that narrow pathway to eternal life… probably because a lot of people are just content to make their lives in this world better, without thinking much of the next one (etc.).
Have you read St. Faustina’s diary? Yes she was a nun so maybe you think you can’t relate… but she went through many things that you and i have been or are going trhough… It is very interesting… She had visions of Hell and Purgatory (and Heaven, i think??)…
Why did you think the school would be killed by “Jehovah”? Is that what made you get out of the JWs? I mean, what most got to you … so that you quit? i am thinking it was probably just that “straw and camel’s back” type of thing??

I never knew love either until i found Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Of course, it is best (my opinion), when looking for a Church to spend time with Him in. to find a Church where you don’t know anyone… the human mind being waht it is, you will end up thinking about the people who attend tht Church… (etc)… and you will be distracted… Do you live in a big city where there is bound to be a Church available?

Well basicly when my church turned on everything I believed in…that’s when I left. I had to chose between my church or God.
I was also very traumatized and could not phisicaly be inside my church without flash backs.
Then I went on a search that lead to the Catholic Church.

If I remember correctly, St.Faustina was on a ewtn movie…I REALY liked her and understood lots of what she said,
Because I was basicly a male nun for my church at bethel.

As far as why, I grew up thinking my whole school would be destroyed by God…well its jw theology which is the exact opposite of Catholic theology.

Its almost impossible to explain…because of the thousands of denominations…I believe the Jehovahs witness church is the MOST different from the Catholic Church…even more then the mormons…jw’s are more extreem and less involved in society then mormons are.

Because of that…I think the Jehovahs witness church can be the hardest to convert from.

we think the same about the Congregations…or parishes…in some Catholic churches.

 

[excaliber]

I’m pretty sure that He meant we need to try to detach ourselves from earthly things. That is not to say that He wants us to not love each other. That is the second of His two commandments. He means that God’s will is to reign supreme in our lives…above our family members, children, and ourselves.

We are not to place persons or things above God’s will.

I think you are correct.

 

[cheeto1]

Don’t give up Excaliber!!
Go to adoration… please…
Show Jesus you love Him, and that He’s not irrelevant in
your life…
Many people are Jehovah Witnesses all their life. Why did
God help you get free and not them? Are you to be the next
“Moses” to the Jehovah Witnesses?

 

[excaliber]

Don’t give up Excaliber!!
Go to adoration… please…
Show Jesus you love Him, and that He’s not irrelevant in
your life…
Many people are Jehovah Witnesses all their life. Why did
God help you get free and not them? Are you to be the next
“Moses” to the Jehovah Witnesses?

First of all,that was a very kind and encouraging thing to say…Thankyou

Second…what exactly is adoration? how is it different from any other time the eucharist is in church??
It sounds like you think it is very significant.

 

[SarahR]

Adoration can be done when the Eucharist is enclosed in the tabernacle, but usually refers to when the Host is exposed in a monstrance, often takes place in a smaller side chapel of a church. You don’t receive him as in holy communion, but you get to be uniquely in His presence.

Basically, it’s you encountering Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. You want His undivided attention in a setting of pure quiet, peace? You got it. It’s you and Jesus and you can talk to Him or just sit in His presence. Bring whatever is on your mind: you can pray the rosary, unload your heart and burdens, thank Him, tell Him you love Him, pray for others, cry, whatever. He is there totally for YOU.

Picture Jesus Himself, giving you his complete attention. What do you want to say to Him? Through our eyes of faith, we know that is exactly what happens at Adoration. Thank goodness He is under the form of bread, I would probably be too scared to go otherwise and see Him so closely.

Please go! And don’t be frustrated if it doesn’t go as you imagined.

 

[KingAlfred]

I think God does care about individuals. I feel the Spirit is constantly guding me, and I believe God has set before me a plan and course He wants me to follow. As His servant, I feel His stewardship and depend on it, daily, if not moment-by-moment.

 

[excaliber]

I think God does care about individuals. I feel the Spirit is constantly guding me, and I believe God has set before me a plan and course He wants me to follow. As His servant, I feel His stewardship and depend on it, daily, if not moment-by-moment.

Ahhh yes…those were the good old days!!!
I USED to feel the EXACT same thing in my other church…the exact same thing.

I was young when I began my search for God. I picked up the bible and began reading starting in genesis (my Jehovahs witness bible). I felt a warmth, like the ruler of the universe was looking at me and proud of me. The old testiment is full of Isreals kings, and I remember that some chose to serve God while most did not…over and over…this king served God these three did not.
I desided my decision was to serve God.
My parents had goten a devorce…and to this day they are not that interested in me…so the thought that God could care felt sooooo good. I went to a kingdomhall all by myself…my mother or father were not helping me. An elder gave me a big hug OUTSIDE the kingdom hall…I did not even make it inside, some times I would see my dad in there and get upset cus of the devorce, but one of the elders grabed me as I was leaving and gave me encouraging words. Jehovahs witnesses (this just changed) used to meet in small groups every week to study one of there publications, as a small group we would laugh hug and realy could get to know eachother. And when we weren’t together for study, we got in small car groups and went out preaching…the closeness of that church was amazing. and I felt God was behind me ALL the time…life revolved around my faith. Then I was apointed a ministerial servent or decan.Talk about feeling loved by God, I realy worked hard…there wasnt an hour when I was not thinking of the congregation. Then after much hard work, I was given the highest
honor a young jw can be Given.

I was invited to serve at the world headquarters. There I was introduced to rasism, coldness beyond anything I knew up to that point. I chose to endure it for years for God…my whole life revolved around my bethel service…its WHO I was…I KNEW God was just testing me…and after 6 months or a year he would stop the rasism…etc…etc or give me a way to endure it. I prayed aloud outside…prayed the psalms…everything I knew…nothing worked…the way out was not revealed to me by God. Eventualy The organization began down sizeing…and I and many others were let go…no party…no thankyou…just a departure date given to you.
I can’t explain to a Catholic what its like to have to leave bethel…lets just say some have killed themselves over such things.
I was and may still be traumatized, I got so sick from not eating and such that I thought I was gona die. My family dosent care, thinking something bad could happen at bethel…is disloyal to God in there minds…all this over what is just a man made religion.

that feeling of God loving me and I him as if there was knowone else has been looooong gone…for years.

So Ill go to adoration, but …well Ill just go.

 

[distracted]

Adoration can be done when the Eucharist is enclosed in the tabernacle, but usually refers to when the Host is exposed in a monstrance, often takes place in a smaller side chapel of a church.

It is different (for me) when not Exposed… but i think both are necessary… When i go to either, I usualy just sit there for a long time and “do nothing”… just let Truth come to me… The truth about my life, my “imperfections” that sometimes are not clear to me when not There… When i am @ the unExposed, i feel more like i am in Purgatory (and/or whatever… ). When at the Exposed Sacrament, i feel more… well, less suffering, i guess. It is hard to put these mysteries into words…

I am in more pain There when i have fallen from grace… which goes without syaing, i guess…

I think it is best to go to confession first… just my opinion… but if you can’t go to confession, then i would not let that stop a person…

 

[distracted]

I USED to feel the EXACT same thing in my other church…

I have felt a lot of what you felt and been through similar things as you have - in the CAtholic Church!! I have felt that… there wasn’t any genuine love, that some people (many) were very cold, that people with $ were treated better than the poor… (OK… i know you didn’t mention that kind of thing but you spoke of racism… I was discriminated against because I was poor… and that is one of the last remaining “respectable prejudices” in this country (along with anti-Catholicism)…
Anyway, i never seriously thought of leaving the Catholic Church until maybe 4 years ago or so… I got very upset because this one deacon was SO un-Christian toward me… for no apparent reason… (Long story). I did NOT want to stay in such a seemingly un-Chritian Church… (that wasn’t the 1st time I’d witnessed rude-ness, etc…). But there were “things” that stopped me: the teachings of the Church (morals), the Mass, confession, and - the wonderful Real Presence… I have felt like leaving many times since that 1st time… but i CAN’T because to leave the Church is to leave Jesus… If i had not been told about the Real Presence, i may have gone ahead and left… but i am glad a priest told me about it years ago… I was raised Catholic but never knew about the RP until maybe 10 yrs go (?)…
Being in the Real Presence (for me) is not always a “walk in the park”… that’s why i like to stay there as long as possible… because after awhile, the “bad” part subsides…(though, relly, none of it is “bad”…). I am a sinner, so i just accept that the experience is not always going to be… pleasant… but again, the discomfort subsides. I look at it as the world and all its ugliness being washed off my soul (plus the effects of sin, both mine and others’)… That’s why i say it is like being in Purgatory… I feel we will all have to go through that kind of thing when we die… before we are admitted to Heaven… (I am speaking of the Un-Exposed Sacrament… I sometimes go through much the same thing at the Exposed S… but it’s different…).
Anyway, my brain is starting to hurt trying to explain this… when it is so mysterious! I hate trying to put words on it… they are SO inadequate…

How long have you been investigating Catholicism? What was it that first interested you?

 

[excaliber]

I have felt a lot of what you felt and been through similar things as you have - in the CAtholic Church!! I have felt that… there wasn’t any genuine love, that some people (many) were very cold, that people with $ were treated better than the poor… (OK… i know you didn’t mention that kind of thing but you spoke of racism… I was discriminated against because I was poor… and that is one of the last remaining “respectable prejudices” in this country (along with anti-Catholicism)…
Anyway, i never seriously thought of leaving the Catholic Church until maybe 4 years ago or so… I got very upset because this one deacon was SO un-Christian toward me… for no apparent reason… (Long story). I did NOT want to stay in such a seemingly un-Chritian Church… (that wasn’t the 1st time I’d witnessed rude-ness, etc…). But there were “things” that stopped me: the teachings of the Church (morals), the Mass, confession, and - the wonderful Real Presence… I have felt like leaving many times since that 1st time… but i CAN’T because to leave the Church is to leave Jesus… If i had not been told about the Real Presence, i may have gone ahead and left… but i am glad a priest told me about it years ago… I was raised Catholic but never knew about the RP until maybe 10 yrs go (?)…
Being in the Real Presence (for me) is not always a “walk in the park”… that’s why i like to stay there as long as possible… because after awhile, the “bad” part subsides…(though, relly, none of it is “bad”…). I am a sinner, so i just accept that the experience is not always going to be… pleasant… but again, the discomfort subsides. I look at it as the world and all its ugliness being washed off my soul (plus the effects of sin, both mine and others’)… That’s why i say it is like being in Purgatory… I feel we will all have to go through that kind of thing when we die… before we are admitted to Heaven… (I am speaking of the Un-Exposed Sacrament… I sometimes go through much the same thing at the Exposed S… but it’s different…).
Anyway, my brain is starting to hurt trying to explain this… when it is so mysterious! I hate trying to put words on it… they are SO inadequate…

How long have you been investigating Catholicism? What was it that first interested you?

I have read books for at least a year or more. I became interested when I came to CCF discusion forum…at first to preach to what
I thought was the worst religion…I was searching but catholosism was the ONE thing I ruled out. Until I for the first time talked to catholics that actualy knew what they were talking about. I never knew the church claimed to be 2000 years old.

Theologicaly I could find no problems…or basicaly the catholic church is great to read about in a book.

but then in reality there was nothing but problems,mainly with other people…now we are all imperfect and I am very imperfect.

But individual catholics were not even trying to cover it up…a jw will atleast hide his true self…a catholic actualy spoke to me recently…we were beside the door to the church going in…he asked me if I liked my cell phone service…because as he said “everytime I need mine the d%&!!
thing is dead”

I said wow just show me the real you why don’t ya.

Anyway…I had experiences as a jw…that I mentaly convinced myself was God…after all that it will be hard to creat in my mind more then what is actualy happening…so hopefully something actualy happens…because Im not going to use my imagination to creat something.

not saying you did…its just I won’t.but I will go.

 

[distracted]

thanks for the background about how you got interested in Catholicism… that helps a lot… Most JWs seem to be very anti-Catholic, so it isn’t surprising that you were at first…

Anyway…I had experiences as a jw…that I mentaly convinced myself was God…

Are you referring (comparing to) the Blessed Sacrament?? Well, the good thing about that is that it is NOT just in your mind… I know because there have been times when, well, i thought that everything between me and Jesus was just fine… only to find out, at the Blessed Sacrament, that i had issues to deal wtih. Even so, as stated b4… it helps to find a Church wherer no one knows you. I always, while There, start thinking about this orthat person at the Church… andsometimes, i can’t focus very well… so i like to go where no one knows i am therre… that’s just me… but i don’t think i am that different from others…

Anyway… no one can convince you concerning the Blessed Sacrament/ Real Presence … It is one of those things u just have to experience for yourself…

And again, i think it would be best if you went to confession fist, but you are not Catholic. You cn go to confession, though you cannot be (officially, sacramentally) absolved… I still think that you would get a lot out of it… But anyway, if you can’t go to confession… (hope the Church agrees with this??) i think you should still go spend time with Jesus…
I AM wondering, though, if a priest would agree with this??
I mean, it may be one of those cart-before-the-horse kinds of things…

 

[excaliber]

thanks for the background about how you got interested in Catholicism… that helps a lot… Most JWs seem to be very anti-Catholic, so it isn’t surprising that you were at first…
Are you referring (comparing to) the Blessed Sacrament?? Well, the good thing about that is that it is NOT just in your mind… I know because there have been times when, well, i thought that everything between me and Jesus was just fine… only to find out, at the Blessed Sacrament, that i had issues to deal wtih. Even so, as stated b4… it helps to find a Church wherer no one knows you. I always, while There, start thinking about this orthat person at the Church… andsometimes, i can’t focus very well… so i like to go where no one knows i am therre… that’s just me… but i don’t think i am that different from others…

Anyway… no one can convince you concerning the Blessed Sacrament/ Real Presence … It is one of those things u just have to experience for yourself…

And again, i think it would be best if you went to confession fist, but you are not Catholic. You cn go to confession, though you cannot be (officially, sacramentally) absolved… I still think that you would get a lot out of it… But anyway, if you can’t go to confession… (hope the Church agrees with this??) i think you should still go spend time with Jesus…
I AM wondering, though, if a priest would agree with this??
I mean, it may be one of those cart-before-the-horse kinds of things…

I don’t have a problem finding a church where not many know me LOL…that’s all of them hehehe.

my experience is that the orthodox catholics are losely conected with other churches…but Roman catholics are losley connected with each other inside of church. go figure.

I don’t understand why I need confesion before baptism…I did not need it for mass, and the eucharist is out sometimes there too.

I understand the theology about eating christ flesh and drinking his blood…however I must admit…the talking to it…or just siting in front of it is new to me…because prayer can be done anywhere…Christ can see us anywhere…but although I don’t get it…I will try to go.

Lets hope lightning don’t hit me…LOL

 

[beckycmarie]

. . .but I will go.

Dear excaliber,

While you’re there, how about praying and asking God that if it’s true that He loves you personally with an everlasting love, that He would help you to trust Him and have faith in His love, and help you to love Him more.