God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything

[strngrnrth]

Atheism inevitably brings one to either of two ends: communism or the sewer. In the mind of the communist, there are absolute rules by which people must live, and there is no God to make, teach or enforce them. Thus society must do that job. But who represents society? Whoever remains popular and functional without believing in God under the horrible conditions of revolution: a charming, powerful, controlling person who doesn’t tolerate dissent. That is the kind who flourish in such circumstances. This person then must be treated just like a god. No one has any right to contradict such a person. For the outcome, I refer you to The Gulag Archipelago or Red Scarf Girl, for a starter course in life under communism.
To the sewer mind, there are no rules anyone must follow. Society dissolves as everyone looks out for himself or herself and no one can trust information from anyone else. For the result, I refer you to the worst part of the roughest town near you, after dark and after the last bus has gone by. For safety, bring a few friends, preferably armed. If you drive, don’t slow down. If not, well, you should really drive.
“Religion” is all that protects all of us from those options.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

He was on Michael Medved today (for a whole hour). Talk about vile and arrogant. I could only listen to a few minutes before I wanted to throw up.

 

[porkscratchings]

Atheism inevitably brings one to either of two ends: communism or the sewer. In the mind of the communist, there are absolute rules by which people must live, and there is no God to make, teach or enforce them. Thus society must do that job. But who represents society? Whoever remains popular and functional without believing in God under the horrible conditions of revolution: a charming, powerful, controlling person who doesn’t tolerate dissent. That is the kind who flourish in such circumstances. This person then must be treated just like a god. No one has any right to contradict such a person. For the outcome, I refer you to The Gulag Archipelago or Red Scarf Girl, for a starter course in life under communism.
To the sewer mind, there are no rules anyone must follow. Society dissolves as everyone looks out for himself or herself and no one can trust information from anyone else. For the result, I refer you to the worst part of the roughest town near you, after dark and after the last bus has gone by. For safety, bring a few friends, preferably armed. If you drive, don’t slow down. If not, well, you should really drive.
“Religion” is all that protects all of us from those options.

If nothing else, this proves the Hitchen’s argument that religions poisons everything.

If religion says non believers have no worth, then believers accept this without question.

I believe everyone, believers or not, have worth. And any belief that negates this, negates its worth.

 

[strngrnrth]

If nothing else, this proves the Hitchen’s argument that religions poisons everything.

If religion says non believers have no worth, then believers accept this without question.

I believe everyone, believers or not, have worth. And any belief that negates this, negates its worth.

No worth? Where did that come from? My point is that atheism (a belief that throws itself against all other belief), leads to one of two logical conclusions. The results are far uglier and more destructive than the very worst of all periods in all the countries where Christianity has been dominant. Religion doesn’t poison. Atheism does. The worth of all people is precisely what makes atheist systems so tragic. It is because the people are worth so much that their self-destruction is so bitter to witness.

 

[porkscratchings]

No worth? Where did that come from? My point is that atheism (a belief that throws itself against all other belief), leads to one of two logical conclusions. The results are far uglier and more destructive than the very worst of all periods in all the countries where Christianity has been dominant. Religion doesn’t poison. Atheism does. The worth of all people is precisely what makes atheist systems so tragic. It is because the people are worth so much that their self-destruction is so bitter to witness.

Religion only values those who believe - those who don’t by default have no worth from the point of view of religion. Hitchen makes the same argument by way of suggesting that religion make pple hate, i.e poisons everything.

When Christianity was dominant - life was not a bed of roses for any unbeliever. But the West, largely governed by a secular (atheist) authority, allows both believers of all faiths and believers of no faith to co-exist. Name one religion dominated society where that can happen. Under Islam? I don’t think so. Under Christianity? I don’t think so.

Under christianity I have no worth. By my argument in my earlier post, this means by demeaning atheism and by extension all atheists, Christianity negates its worth.

 

[strngrnrth]

Religion only values those who believe - those who don’t by default have no worth from the point of view of religion. Hitchen makes the same argument by way of suggesting that religion make pple hate, i.e poisons everything.

When Christianity was dominant - life was not a bed of roses for any unbeliever. But the West, largely governed by a secular (atheist) authority, allows both believers of all faiths and believers of no faith to co-exist. Name one religion dominated society where that can happen. Under Islam? I don’t think so. Under Christianity? I don’t think so.

Under christianity I have no worth. By my argument in my earlier post, this means by demeaning atheism and by extension all atheists, Christianity negates its worth.

Under Christianity you have immeasurable worth. Under atheism, nothing has intrinsic worth unless the majority/ the dictator/ the market says it has.

 

[porkscratchings]

Under Christianity you have immeasurable worth. Under atheism, nothing has intrinsic worth unless the majority/ the dictator/ the market says it has.

I am an atheist. Under Christianity, I am the scum of the earth, the spawn of Satan, etc. etc. Hardly someone of immeasureable worth. Islam would agree on non-worth of non-believers.

A government by majority is a democracy - not atheism. A democracy can function based on religion - the ancient Greeks who invented democracy were religious.

A government by one man is a dictatorship - not atheism. By this definition the Catholic Church is a dictatorship, since it is ruled by one man, the Pope.

A society driven by the markets is Capitalism - not atheism. I don’t see many Christians objecting to Western Capitalism so far.

Atheism is a belief that there is no God, and that all religion is man made.

 

[strngrnrth]

I am an atheist. Under Christianity, I am the scum of the earth, the spawn of Satan, etc. etc. Hardly someone of immeasureable worth. Islam would agree on non-worth of non-believers.

A government by majority is a democracy - not atheism. A democracy can function based on religion - the ancient Greeks who invented democracy were religious.

A government by one man is a dictatorship - not atheism. By this definition the Catholic Church is a dictatorship, since it is ruled by one man, the Pope.

A society driven by the markets is Capitalism - not atheism. I don’t see many Christians objecting to Western Capitalism so far.

Atheism is a belief that there is no God, and that all religion is man made.

Au contraire. Under Christianity, you are a valuable human being made in the image of God – but you are making a mistake that can harm you eternally. Christians feel deep concern for you because you are worth so very much. I am concerned for you in part because I see so much of my former self in you.
In a Christian-oriented culture, you would be inconvenienced in the same way that a Christian is inconvenienced in a secular culture. You would feel pressure to compromise for practical reasons, just as we do. I don’t know anyone who sees you as spawn of satan.
Islam is a very different religion. The Qu’ran seems to me to mandate an attempt to force the world to be Muslim. The difference is, in part, the use of force. In the Book of Acts, the apostles used words and displays of God’s power as well as a life of charity.
Atheism is the belief that there is no God and are no gods or godlike entities. This leaves all moral reasoning in the realm of human power. Logically, there are two ways it can go from that point:
A: Human source of absolute morality. Such a source would have unlimited power.
A1: With competition: Right-wing dictatorship.
A2: Left-wing dictatorship.
B: No source of absolute morality. Survival of those fittest to thrive without moral agreement. Ultimately, morals erode, as in the world’s deepest pockets of misery.

 

[christcnection1]

If nothing else, this proves the Hitchen’s argument that religions poisons everything.

If religion says non believers have no worth, then believers accept this without question.

I believe everyone, believers or not, have worth. And any belief that negates this, negates its worth.

Is it wrong to believe that a person has no worth?

If there is no God, then there is no objective moral law. Good and evil merely becomes one’s opinion.

Hence, the idea that a person has essential worth is totally subjective.

If that’s true, ultimately everything is meaningless in the end. There is no heaven to gain; there is no hell to fear. …Just nothing. No justice. No hope. …Just nothing.

The basis of defense of the Nazis during the Nuremberg trials was that they were obeying the laws of their own land.

What if the Nazi’s killed off all their enemies, and converted everyone to their beliefs. Would they still be wrong? If there is no God, there would be no basis for them to be deemed evil.

I strongly suggest you listen to this. It’s by well-known apologist who converted to Christianity on a bed of suicide.

rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&v=detail&id=617
rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&v=detail&id=623

Also, if you would like, I would be happy to send you a free book on my conversion from agnosticism, to Protestantism, to Catholicism. At the very least it’s an entertaining read. There are many supernatural stories, and comic-like illustrations. If it was not for God, I would likely be dead or in prison.

Finally, let me ask you a question…

Hypothetically, if the Christian God was true (and you knew this), would you love Him, worship Him, and follow Him?

I’ll be honest. If I knew the Christian God did not exist (or strongly disbelieved it), I would not be living the life I am. I would probably be sleeping around with different woman and using drugs again.

Currently I am discerning the priesthood, and am in training to spend two years in Papua New Guinea to serve the poor and undereducated. My only point in saying this is that I’m a radically changed man and loving every minute of it! God is real and can change your life too!

Please consider the love of Jesus Christ…
At the very least consider thinking about it…

All the best!

 

[porkscratchings]

Au contraire. Under Christianity, you are a valuable human being made in the image of God – but you are making a mistake that can harm you eternally. Christians feel deep concern for you because you are worth so very much. I am concerned for you in part because I see so much of my former self in you.

Under most, if not all religions, people have a value only when they can be converted. If they refuse to be converted then their value is nil. The history of both Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism is proof of this. A person’s value is not, in my view, dependent on what God they worship, or whether they can be converted. A Christian can remain a Christian and still be a valuable human being. Ditto a Hindu and a Muslim. Same goes for an atheist.

Were u once an atheist? .

In a Christian-oriented culture, you would be inconvenienced in the same way that a Christian is inconvenienced in a secular culture. You would feel pressure to compromise for practical reasons, just as we do. I don’t know anyone who sees you as spawn of satan.

I don’t agree. A Christian is far less inconvenienced in a secular culture than any non believer in a Christian culture. I don’t see Christians being killed just for being Christian or being forced to be atheists. My beliefs are personal to me, and I wouldn’t dream of forcing them on other people.Both Christianity and Islam have an objective of converting the world to their belief system.

As for the spawn of Satan thing, if Christians do not see atheist as satanic, then we wouldn’t be blamed for all the ills of the world, as Christians onced blamed the Jews, then the Liberals and the Modernists.

Islam is a very different religion. The Qu’ran seems to me to mandate an attempt to force the world to be Muslim. The difference is, in part, the use of force. In the Book of Acts, the apostles used words and displays of God’s power as well as a life of charity.

Sometimes acts of charity and God’s power isn’t enough to convince people. What then? When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire, Christians found themselves with the power to make people convert. Forced conversions and laws making it impossible for pagan to worship freely, gradually wiped out paganism from Europe.

Atheism is the belief that there is no God and are no gods or godlike entities. This leaves all moral reasoning in the realm of human power. Logically, there are two ways it can go from that point:
A: Human source of absolute morality. Such a source would have unlimited power.
A1: With competition: Right-wing dictatorship.
A2: Left-wing dictatorship.
B: No source of absolute morality. Survival of those fittest to thrive without moral agreement. Ultimately, morals erode, as in the world’s deepest pockets of misery.

Moral reasoning is in the realm of human power - whether u choose to disguise it by using God or not. If there’s a group of Christians and a group of atheists sharing a village, then both groups would have to work out how to live with each other.

If the two groups want to live peacefully, they would have to negotiate with common ideas of morality, and work out a legal system that would suit both groups. Countries like pre Communist China, pre-Christian Europe, and pre-Islamic middle east used either governing system based on negotiation or a secular system that allowed freedom of belief for all groups.

The alternative is for both to decide only their group have the right moral guidelines and then wage war to impose their values on the other group. Religion allows for only this outcome.

 

[porkscratchings]

Is it wrong to believe that a person has no worth?

If there is no God, then there is no objective moral law. Good and evil merely becomes one’s opinion.

Hence, the idea that a person has essential worth is totally subjective.

Who decides who has objective moral law? Do Christians? Or the Muslims? Who decides that one religion has all the truth and everyone else must accept this?

If that’s true, ultimately everything is meaningless in the end. There is no heaven to gain; there is no hell to fear. …Just nothing. No justice. No hope. …Just nothing.

I don’t need God to give me hope. Seeing people of all races, of all backgrounds, of every belief under the sun, find it in their hearts to be good, decent people - gives hope, happiness and meaning in my life.

The Nazis believed God was on their side. The SS put ‘God with Us’ on their belts and buckles. Hitler felt the hand of God in his destiny to bring about the 3rd Reich and exterminate the Jews. With God on their side, why should they care what the world thought of them? They didn’t. The Islamic fundamentalists feel the same - the whole world might hate them, but this doesn’t matter when God is on their side.

I strongly suggest you listen to this. It’s by well-known apologist who converted to Christianity on a bed of suicide.

Equally there are stories of people converting to Islam from a life of hopelessness. But doesn’t mean Islam would be right for me. In fact it would be a waste of time as i’m not convinced God is real.

Finally, let me ask you a question…

Hypothetically, if the Christian God was true (and you knew this), would you love Him, worship Him, and follow Him?

No. I would not bow down to a tyrant in whose name millions have been killed and countless millions have been enslaved. That would be like following Hitler or Stalin.

I’ll be honest. If I knew the Christian God did not exist (or strongly disbelieved it), I would not be living the life I am. I would probably be sleeping around with different woman and using drugs again.

I believe that I should try to be a good person because society and my fellow human beings deserves nothing less. Whether God exists or not would not change this.

Currently I am discerning the priesthood, and am in training to spend two years in Papua New Guinea to serve the poor and undereducated. My only point in saying this is that I’m a radically changed man and loving every minute of it! God is real and can change your life too!

U r doing good, and u r happy. So why can’t u accept other people can be just as happy being something else other than Christian? As long as the person is decent and does not hurt other people, why should it matter that he should be of a particular faith?

 

[christcnection1]

Who decides who has objective moral law? Do Christians? Or the Muslims? Who decides that one religion has all the truth and everyone else must accept this?


Nearly all Christians, and even Christ himself believed in personal freedom, to a degree. My point wasn’t who has the objective moral law; rather, simply that an objective moral law does not exist if there is no God. Any concept of right our wrong, good or evil is utterly subjective.

I don’t need God to give me hope. Seeing people of all races, of all backgrounds, of every belief under the sun, find it in their hearts to be good, decent people - gives hope, happiness and meaning in my life.

Do you hope for a happy afterlife? This is the ultimate hope I’m talking about, not filling your life with many little meanings, under an overall arching meaninglessness.

Some people like to enslave little girls in the sex trade. If there is no God, this is also a valid expression of finding meaning. (And I know you would deplore this kind of act.)

The Nazis believed God was on their side. The SS put ‘God with Us’ on their belts and buckles. Hitler felt the hand of God in his destiny to bring about the 3rd Reich and exterminate the Jews. With God on their side, why should they care what the world thought of them? They didn’t. The Islamic fundamentalists feel the same - the whole world might hate them, but this doesn’t matter when God is on their side.

This was a perversion of what Christ taught. Just because someone claims to be something, doesn’t mean they necessarily are. Likewise, it would be foolish for me to say that Stalin represented all atheists.

Equally there are stories of people converting to Islam from a life of hopelessness. But doesn’t mean Islam would be right for me. In fact it would be a waste of time as i’m not convinced God is real.

No, not equally. Islam may have some stories, but the majority of their followers are born in their religion. Christianity is larger and has far more converts. Furthermore, Christianity has many miracles (signs, wonders, healings) whereas Islam does not have 1% of this kind of phenomena.

No. I would not bow down to a tyrant in whose name millions have been killed and countless millions have been enslaved. That would be like following Hitler or Stalin.

This is a nonsensical comparison.

If you think this was God’s will, you are mistaken. God never desires evil; when suffering happens it’s part of his permissive will, just as man has free will.

Keep in mind that for every evil “Christian” there are nearly a hundred Mother Theresa’s (or people like her) out there. How many atheists do you know that have this kind of dedication? They don’t exist.

God loves you, whether you care or not. He will keep chasing your heart until the day you die.

I believe that I should try to be a good person because society and my fellow human beings deserves nothing less. Whether God exists or not would not change this.

Somehow you still believe there is a good by which mankind should be governed. If God does not exist, this forum, thread, my post, your thoughts, and my thoughts are ultimately meaningless. You try to be a good person. How do you define good? Define it any way you want; there is not standard for good or evil.

The golden rule thus becomes fool’s gold. It’s like writing a book on how the world is essentially meaningless, all the while assuming your book is meaningful.

U r doing good, and u r happy. So why can’t u accept other people can be just as happy being something else other than Christian? As long as the person is decent and does not hurt other people, why should it matter that he should be of a particular faith?

The only reason I’m doing this is because I love God and I love you. I’m very concerned about your soul, and I want you to experience the true freedom of Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you…

JB

 

[Johenz]

The Nazis believed God was on their side. The SS put ‘God with Us’ on their belts and buckles.

“Gott mit uns” is a traditional motto of the German soldier and had been stamped into belt buckles of German soldiers since the time of Frederick the Great. The motto was used by Wehrmacht (ie Army), not by the SS. The SS buckle design had a swastika, surrounded by a wreath, surmounted by an eagle, but no words.

Hitler felt the hand of God in his destiny to bring about the 3rd Reich and exterminate the Jews. With God on their side, why should they care what the world thought of them? They didn’t.

Hitler and the Nazi party were rank opportunists who appropriated many of the finest aspects of German culture in support of their dcotrines. Classical music, specifically Wagnerian Opera, was glorifed as part of the Nazi culture. Does this make classical music an evil that must be eradicated just like religion?

Next time you want to draw illustrations of the evils of religion from history, you may want to pick up a history book first.

 

[christcnection1]

Hitler and the Nazi party were rank opportunists who appropriated many of the finest aspects of German culture in support of their dcotrines. Classical music, specifically Wagnerian Opera, was glorifed as part of the Nazi culture. Does this make classical music an evil that must be eradicated just like religion?

Of course is makes classical music evil.

Good point.

 

[Ahimsa]

Whenever you say Classical Music is evil, you make a ‘clASSical’ out of ‘mUsic’ and ‘musIc’.

 

[Nepenthe]

Easy now. Hitch has not said that religion should be forcibly done away with. Indeed, he states that it will likely always be with us, if you read the three chapters posted to slate.com.

For those of us who are not theists, what he has to say is quite so, though he uses the big brush. Why do you hate so? Why do you hate each other, and why do you hate those of us who don’t have the ‘sense of belief’?

Time was, and time has passed. We aren’t your enemies, if you haven’t realized. Rather, our interests are different, perhaps, in some ways. But the best of both groups understand that we have common cause, and love the world and humanity. Madness claims its tithe from the believers and unbelievers alike, but that need not be a reason for more hatred.

 

[strngrnrth]

Easy now. Hitch has not said that religion should be forcibly done away with. Indeed, he states that it will likely always be with us, if you read the three chapters posted to slate.com.

For those of us who are not theists, what he has to say is quite so, though he uses the big brush. Why do you hate so? Why do you hate each other, and why do you hate those of us who don’t have the ‘sense of belief’?

Time was, and time has passed. We aren’t your enemies, if you haven’t realized. Rather, our interests are different, perhaps, in some ways. But the best of both groups understand that we have common cause, and love the world and humanity. Madness claims its tithe from the believers and unbelievers alike, but that need not be a reason for more hatred.

What hate? Why is it some nontheists can stand among people saying “love, love, love, love” and hear nothing but “hate”?

 

[porkscratchings]

My point wasn’t who has the objective moral law; rather, simply that an objective moral law does not exist if there is no God. Any concept of right our wrong, good or evil is utterly subjective.

All laws and concepts of good and evil is subjective - that’s my point. Everyone says they have the truth on their side - well who’s gonna step up and actually prove it? until they can prove it to the rest of the world, then their argument is no more objective than anyone else’s. That goes for their versions of ‘objective moral law’?

Do you hope for a happy afterlife? This is the ultimate hope I’m talking about, not filling your life with many little meanings, under an overall arching meaninglessness.

Does an afterlife even exist? Or is that a figment of ur imagination? If it is, then it is no more meaningful then waiting to die. And who are u and I to dictate what is meaningful for another person? Surely that is also subjective - u find meaning in God, whereas I find meaning in the things I see and experience around me.

Some people like to enslave little girls in the sex trade. If there is no God, this is also a valid expression of finding meaning. (And I know you would deplore this kind of act.)

Most right minded person would deplore this act - that person does not have be Christian to do so. There are morals that are common to all societies, whether these societies believe in one God or another, or even many God, or no Gods at all. The concepts of Human Rights were conceived by liberals who also rejected the authority of the Church.

This was a perversion of what Christ taught. Just because someone claims to be something, doesn’t mean they necessarily are. Likewise, it would be foolish for me to say that Stalin represented all atheists.

Correct!! U are the first person to see this distinction between one bad apple in a cart of good people, and blaming the whole cart for one rotten apple. Many wouldn’t see it at all.

There are quite a few Christians who believe that Stalin represents all atheists and blame all the ills of the world on certain groups of people - liberals, modernists, Jews, and now atheists and muslims.

This is a nonsensical comparison.

The barbarism in both Christianity and Islam is stated in the holy books. I don’t have to make it up. If i want to worship a God that is truly compassionate i wouldn’t be looking at Christianith or Islam. But my problems isn’t the right religion but that no religion can prove that God exists. And without that, I cannot believe.

Keep in mind that for every evil “Christian” there are nearly a hundred Mother Theresa’s (or people like her) out there. How many atheists do you know that have this kind of dedication? They don’t exist.

U r wrong. Every yr, we have various charitible events that fundraise to the tune of millions here in the UK. Now I can tell u for a fact that the majority of the folks donating money to these good causes r not Christians or Muslims. Many of my friends (non religious) donate money to good causes. The fact they don’t advertise it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Somehow you still believe there is a good by which mankind should be governed. If God does not exist, this forum, thread, my post, your thoughts, and my thoughts are ultimately meaningless. You try to be a good person. How do you define good? Define it any way you want; there is not standard for good or evil.

Good can be defined outside religion - many people from all walks of life have no problem knowing the difference. So why does only the Christian definition of good count? If my thoughts are meaningless, they are meaningless only to u. They are not meaningless to me. Just as God has meaning for u, but I can find meaning without it.

The golden rule thus becomes fool’s gold. It’s like writing a book on how the world is essentially meaningless, all the while assuming your book is meaningful.

One man’s gold is another man’s trash. A book is meaningful depending on the reader. If u find it meaningless, then the book is clearly not meant for u. If i find it meaningful, then the book speaks to me. Rules only exist for the society that needs them, otherwise they become obsolete and are replaced by new rules.There is no ‘goldern rule’ as such.

The only reason I’m doing this is because I love God and I love you. I’m very concerned about your soul, and I want you to experience the true freedom of Jesus Christ.

Freedom is also subjective. One man’s idea of freedom is another man’s bondage…

 

[porkscratchings]

“Gott mit uns” is a traditional motto of the German soldier and had been stamped into belt buckles of German soldiers since the time of Frederick the Great. The motto was used by Wehrmacht (ie Army), not by the SS. The SS buckle design had a swastika, surrounded by a wreath, surmounted by an eagle, but no words.

I’m mates with a guy who collects this stuff - I’ve actually seen the gear. Have u? The point is, if Hitler was truly an atheist, he would have ordered all parts of the German army not to display these religious insignia, wouldn’t he? And for his soldiers not to go to church or say Mass.

Hitler and the Nazi party were rank opportunists who appropriated many of the finest aspects of German culture in support of their dcotrines. Classical music, specifically Wagnerian Opera, was glorifed as part of the Nazi culture. Does this make classical music an evil that must be eradicated just like religion?

Hitler was a rank opportunist, as u say. So why do Christians label him an atheist and use him to blame ALL atheists for the wrongs in the world? Aren’t Christians equally being rank opportunists in using Hitler to attack those perceived as being the enemies of the faith? I don’t think classical music and German culture should be eradicated just because one man misuses them. Nor do I think that
atheists are evil and deserving of destruction, just because one man decides to kill millions in the name of atheism.

Next time you want to draw illustrations of the evils of religion from history, you may want to pick up a history book first.

The evils of religion are not in doubt - I have read my history on the wars of religion, the religious wars and persecutions against unbelievers, going back thousands of yrs.

What i cannot understand is - why?

 

[porkscratchings]

Whenever you say Classical Music is evil, you make a ‘clASSical’ out of ‘mUsic’ and ‘musIc’.

LOL