God, killing people, incouraging murder and much, much more

[Zundrah]

Exodus 32:27-28 (New International Version)

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

I think that I am going to end up as a cafeteria catholic because I am starting to believe that perhaps it was just primitive men ho wrote and did all of this, with out the guidance or influence of God. I think that perhaps most of the old testament is made up of ridiculous stories of men doing ridiculous things because they were trying to find God and repent their own sins, but failed terribly…
I was thinking about all this yesterday and last night.
I think that maybe Christ is the only real truth in the bible.

I could quote many, many things from the bible that make no sense and seem pretty pointless…

 

[Disciple4Christ]

When you start taking 1 verse at a time and trying to make sense of scripture you come up with your own picture as many have who turned away. That is simply because they didn’t understand the truth and the big picture of salvation history. The Bible is Gods history book not mans it shows salvation history from what God considers important. I recommend reading A Father Who Keeps His Promises by Scott Hahn. Or at least try going to Salvationhistory.com and take the free bible study Genesis to Jesus. If you are truely searching for the truth and understanding prayerfully read these and it will open your eyes.

But if you wish to remain a cafeteria Catholic as you say remember the parable of the coins.

I will pray for you and please do for yourself “ask and the door will be opened”

Peace

 

[Zundrah]

When you start taking 1 verse at a time and trying to make sense of scripture you come up with your own picture as many have who turned away. That is simply because they didn’t understand the truth and the big picture of salvation history. The Bible is Gods history book not mans it shows salvation history from what God considers important. I recommend reading A Father Who Keeps His Promises by Scott Hahn. Or at least try going to Salvationhistory.com and take the free bible study Genesis to Jesus. If you are truely searching for the truth and understanding prayerfully read these and it will open your eyes.

But if you wish to remain a cafeteria Catholic as you say remember the parable of the coins.

I will pray for you and please do for yourself “ask and the door will be opened”

Peace

See here;

I will pray for you and please do for yourself “ask and the door will be opened”

I do speak to the farther about these verses, and I always seem to get the same response, and that is that these men who wrote it were most likely agnostic and trying to do their best to reach our Lord but did so by the wrong means. I think that books like exodus were written genuinely at that time but I think that the people were just “trying” to reach and contact God but weren’t actually getting any where about it. They did such terrible things too. Murder and genocide are common in the Old Testament and I will never and cannot believe that our Holy father really told them to do such things…
I can honestly swear that I really feel that the majority of Old Testament books were written by agnostics desperate to seek and find Gods will.

 

[57classic]

I think that I am going to end up as a cafeteria catholic because I am starting to believe that perhaps it was just primitive men ho wrote and did all of this, with out the guidance or influence of God. I think that perhaps most of the old testament is made up of ridiculous stories of men doing ridiculous things because they were trying to find God and repent their own sins, but failed terribly…
I was thinking about all this yesterday and last night.
I think that maybe Christ is the only real truth in the bible.

I could quote many, many things from the bible that make no sense and seem pretty pointless…

It is a common mistake by modern humanity to judge the past by our own standards. Civilization has had to work, no, scratch, bite and kill it’s way to where we are from the place where we started. Future generations will also make this mistake thinking we were nothing but barbarians acting on our basest passions…hummmmm maybe we haven’t come so far after all.

 

[Zundrah]

It is a common mistake by modern humanity to judge the past by our own standards. Civilization has had to work, no, scratch, bite and kill it’s way to where we are from the place where we started. Future generations will also make this mistake thinking we were nothing but barbarians acting on our basest passions…hummmmm maybe we haven’t come so far after all.

But it clearly states on this scripture (in the first post) that God actually said ,“Go and kill your brothers!” **God said go and kill your brothers!!! ** …can’t you read that? God said that he knit us up in our mothers womb and knew us before we were born and yet here he clearly says to some of them, “Go and kill your brothers!”

 

[Zundrah]

I was taught that God is love, and whoever does not know love cannot know God because God **is **love. But this bible verse says the complete opposite, so I am totally convinced here that they said that God told them to do it just so that they could get away with it.

Surely God would never say to his people, “Go now and kill my children.”

 

[judechild]

With the Old Testament, please try to understand that God had not revealed many important things about Himself yet. I’m having a similar discussion on another thread, and the key to both of them seems to be an understanding of what or who God really is. In Exodus, the Hebrews didn’t know God is Love. THe way I see these verses that force us to do a double-take is that God took an event that had already happened, and somehow assigned a parable-like teaching moment to it. In this case, the Levites destroyed the people who had been worshiping the golden calf. We can look at this and say “well, God really doesn’t like idols.” He is not condoning murder, because He cannot condone murder.

In the ancient world, it was common philosophy that everything happened because of a direct intervention of a divine being. Hence, in the Iliad, a statement like “Achilles killed Hector with the help of Athene” means simply “Achilles killed Hector”. The same thing happens here.

 

[57classic]

With the Old Testament, please try to understand that God had not revealed many important things about Himself yet. I’m having a similar discussion on another thread, and the key to both of them seems to be an understanding of what or who God really is. In Exodus, the Hebrews didn’t know God is Love. THe way I see these verses that force us to do a double-take is that God took an event that had already happened, and somehow assigned a parable-like teaching moment to it. In this case, the Levites destroyed the people who had been worshiping the golden calf. We can look at this and say “well, God really doesn’t like idols.” He is not condoning murder, because He cannot condone murder.

In the ancient world, it was common philosophy that everything happened because of a direct intervention of a divine being. Hence, in the Iliad, a statement like “Achilles killed Hector with the help of Athene” means simply “Achilles killed Hector”. The same thing happens here.

In addition, in order to be taken seriously, God had to do things slowly, starting with where humanity currently was in the civilization process and working up to Christ’s teachings thousands of years later. We learn slowly.

 

[Zundrah]

Here are yet some more horrific examples of what some evil men did and wrote into the bible;

Psalm 137:9
Blessed shall he be who takes your little children and dashes them against the rock!

& this one

Numbers 15:32-36
While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. And the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses.

And this made me feel violently sick to my stomach;

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (New International Version)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. [a] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Please now understand why I say that this is NOT OF GOD!

 

[Zundrah]

Cannibalism;

Deuteronomy 28:53 (New International Version)

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you.

Murder your own child

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (New International Version)

A Rebellious Son
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

More murder;

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

…sound like our heavenly father to you? :nope:

 

[FCEGM]

I was taught that God is love, and whoever does not know love cannot know God because God **is **love. But this bible verse says the complete opposite, so I am totally convinced here that they said that God told them to do it just so that they could get away with it.

Surely God would never say to his people, “Go now and kill my children.”

When reading of such events there are important things to remember:

1. God is the Lord of Life and History and has the right to take life since He gave it; others don’t have that right, but He does, always has and always will.
2. Although He did not intend death (it comes as a result of Original Sin, which He permits), He inflicts it or permits it to further His Plan of Salvation for all and each.
3. This reveals that death is not the greatest evil, but sin is.
4. It also reveals that God inflicts or permits it, for a higher purpose or greater good – which comes out later, and is supernatural.
5. When He orders the destruction of His people’s enemies God, of course, eternally knows His Plan of Redemption in His Son. It is in view of that that He orders the such events; and it is view of that that the innocent who are killed by the Israelites will be saved.
6. The enemies of God’s people who are destroyed are also real symbols of evil and sin which Christ destroys at His Sacrifice (applied at Baptism) and of the vices of concupiscence to be overcome by active cooperation with the grace of God in the spiritual life, and the final defeat of ALL the powers of evil and sin at the end of the world. All those things are known by God when He commands such destruction and are spiritual meanings not known by the human writer, who, btw, is usually writing many years after the described event. This is especially true with the events of the Old Testament since the Hebrews had no thought of intermediate causes, but saw events only as the direct action or command of God.

Yes, from the human perspective it at first glance it can seem like God is the bad guy; a deeper consideration of theology reveals that God’s Mercy and Justice together are infinitely higher Love than man’s reason can guess, and that we cannot water down its fierceness into a bourgeois sense of being nice. “Love is stronger than death.”

 

[ahollars]

All of your questions are coming from the Old Testament. You cannot view those through the Prism of the Teachings of Jesus. Read them again, and imagine you have no knowledge of Christianity. You are a nomadic nation with no homeland, and every other nation says that you are the enemy. God has just freed you from slavery, and He will not lead you to freedom only to die. You know there is a prepared place for the people, but you don’t know anything about the place until you get there. What do you think would happen next?

 

[Zundrah]

Grrr, every time I have ever brought a scripture to some one on this site I always get a different explaination for it. Some times I am taught the meaning of it but then some one will accuse me of telling people the wrong teachings when I repeat it to others. But who can I believe, now I am accused of constant heresys on every thread most of the time…

 

[FCEGM]

Grrr, every time I have ever brought a scripture to some one on this site I always get a different explaination for it. Some times I am taught the meaning of it but then some one will accuse me of telling people the wrong teachings when I repeat it to others. But who can I believe, now I am accused of constant heresys on every thread most of the time…

Jennifer, I haven’t seen where you’ve been accused of heresy here or any other thread (perhaps I missed it); you have merely been shown that some of your understandings have been ill-formed. It is these erroneous assumptions/beliefs from your life before your proposed entry into the Catholic that you must face without fear when contradicted by Catholics who are trying to help you gain a Catholic vision of things. All the responses to you on this particular thread have presented much the same Catholic approach to the difficulties you have with the some of the events attributed to God directly in the Old Testament (please see the point in my previous post about the way the Hebrews viewed God at work in their history).

 

[po18guy]

I was taught that God is love, and whoever does not know love cannot know God because God **is **love. But this bible verse says the complete opposite, so I am totally convinced here that they said that God told them to do it just so that they could get away with it.

Surely God would never say to his people, “Go now and kill my children.”

Our lives are God’s gift, God’s possession, and God’s property to do with as He pleases. We deceive ourselves to think that we are the owners of our souls, our lives or our bodies. Since we are creations of limited knowledge and incapable of understanding the will and justice of the Father, we cannot judge His actions based on one sentence from all of scripture.

God’s discipline and justice prevail. Everything done by God is out of love. Are we mean and spiteful when we discipline our children? No, because discipline is for the child’s ultimate good. The child views it through limited knowledge and foresight, and may think it is only retribution, or even sadistic. As parents, we can view it with the eyes of wisdom, and know that the child’s ultimate good is our aim. As to our relationship with God, we are but unknowing and ignorant children - incapable of understanding the father. Thus, we cannot correctly perceive His actions.

If we take a portion of a child’s discipline and separate it from the entirety of the discipline, it may appear cruel. A spanking by itself is assault. Taken within the context of the child’s history of misbehavior, and the entirety of the discipline, it may be completely understood. Don’t like the spanking example? Then substitute any other form of discipline, such as loss of privileges, loss of a meal, etc. Taken out of context and viewed by itself, it may appear cruel. Taken in sum, it can be seen to be for the child’s ultimate good. Thus it is with the actions of our Lord.

This is also why scripture passages must be take within the context of the whole of history. The entirety of God’s covenants with man must be considered, rather than just one small portion which concerned one people at only one point in history, and for a specific reason.

Even Christ told us of eighteen people who were killed when a tower at Siloam fell on them. The Father was aware that this would happen, and allowed it. Jesus told His disciples:

Luke 13:3-5 “I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Jesus, Who is God, came that we might be saved and not condemned. Every one of Christ’s words were not His, but those of the Father. He came only to do the Father’s will. The words were those of the Father, Who taught Him what to teach us. They remain words of love. He told us beforehand to repent so that we might be saved.

So, if you select one or two sentences out of the tens of thousands in scripture, you can easily be lead astray from the true meaning and intent of those words. Every word in scripture has meaning for us. Every word is there for a reason. The meaning of some is apparent while others must be taken within context before they make sense to us.

 

[marymol]

Those who participate in this thread may be possibly also eager to share their finds /truths on these , due to once having held similar fears and now recognising the truth that is lot more consistent with God and His Good nature .

What may be difficult for many who live in these days may be to comprehend what evil was in those days …every once in a while , we are allowed a glimpse of raw evil …the book 'our Lady of Kibeho ’ ( regarding bl.Mother’s apparitions in Africa - Church approved ) )mentions this child who are of pagan parents , in Africa and how on an occasion , (demonic) fire bursts out of his feet !

secure.marianweb.net/giftshop/product.php?DID=101&PID=07270072

True , we too live with effects of much evil …yet write it off as under other labels …

Yet, may the evil of O.T times was more virulently contagious …

It may be akin to comparing the fullfledged Ebola virus disease or worse, to a common cold - in our times, with the Presence of The Holy Eucharist and continual offering of the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, offering up all the merits and strenght from our Lord ( and Bl.Mother ) merited , by their trusting acts of love , in the midst of such pain …to ward off the holds of the enemy , brought in through fearful hatred and other ways …

This was not so in the O.T times …we read how the children of Israel , with Moses still on the mountain, had turned to the pagan lusts they had known in Egypt …and the golden calf 'came out ’ of the fire … such was the power of the idol / evil , in their hearts still that their heart desires could have such effects …and thus dangerous, worse than someone with a terribly contagious illness …having been spiritually weakened , they were not in a position to deal with such evil , except through drastic measures …

Evils such as rape were drastically dealt with …we read how the whole tribe of Benjamin almost got wiped out for such an offense …and the good …may be such a memory stayed with the descendants too so that such evils became less prevalent in such people… …till those times when it would be the love of good and of God , through The Spirit that would take charge …

And some of the drastic medicine in O.T still evident … …we still see how the love of truth and law , cleanliness etc ; that served well the jewish people, truths they were taught again and again , at times at a high price , in the midst of paganism ( and its evil powers through idolatry ) that often leered the other way , those good values of those people have become blessings to people world over …

Only in heaven we would know how merciful and gentle our Father is…has been …with us stiff necked and often wicked and ungrateful people …

May His mercy be with us ever and may the prayers of our Mother , Mother of The Lord help us …esp. by meditating the sufferings she too was allowed to bear … to give us children strenght …at times of our own trials …

Peace !

 

[Zundrah]

Those who participate in this thread may be possibly also eager to share their finds /truths on these , due to once having held similar fears and now recognising the truth that is lot more consistent with God and His Good nature .

What may be difficult for many who live in these days may be to comprehend what evil was in those days …every once in a while , we are allowed a glimpse of raw evil …the book 'our Lady of Kibeho ’ ( regarding bl.Mother’s apparitions in Africa - Church approved ) )mentions this child who are of pagan parents , in Africa and how on an occasion , (demonic) fire bursts out of his feet !

secure.marianweb.net/giftshop/product.php?DID=101&PID=07270072

True , we too live with effects of much evil …yet write it off as under other labels …

Yet, may the evil of O.T times was more virulently contagious …

It may be akin to comparing the fullfledged Ebola virus disease or worse, to a common cold - in our times, with the Presence of The Holy Eucharist and continual offering of the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, offering up all the merits and strenght from our Lord ( and Bl.Mother ) merited , by their trusting acts of love , in the midst of such pain …to ward off the holds of the enemy , brought in through fearful hatred and other ways …

This was not so in the O.T times …we read how the children of Israel , with Moses still on the mountain, had turned to the pagan lusts they had known in Egypt …and the golden calf 'came out ’ of the fire … such was the power of the idol / evil , in their hearts still that their heart desires could have such effects …and thus dangerous, worse than someone with a terribly contagious illness …having been spiritually weakened , they were not in a position to deal with such evil , except through drastic measures …

Evils such as rape were drastically dealt with …we read how the whole tribe of Benjamin almost got wiped out for such an offense …and the good …may be such a memory stayed with the descendants too so that such evils became less prevalent in such people… …till those times when it would be the love of good and of God , through The Spirit that would take charge …

And some of the drastic medicine in O.T still evident … …we still see how the love of truth and law , cleanliness etc ; that served well the jewish people, truths they were taught again and again , at times at a high price , in the midst of paganism ( and its evil powers through idolatry ) that often leered the other way , those good values of those people have become blessings to people world over …

Only in heaven we would know how merciful and gentle our Father is…has been …with us stiff necked and often wicked and ungrateful people …

May His mercy be with us ever and may the prayers of our Mother , Mother of The Lord help us …esp. by meditating the sufferings she too was allowed to bear … to give us children strenght …at times of our own trials …

Peace !

Thank you for this, I was getting worried because some people may have thought that I was being anti - christian by starting this thread and that couldn’t be more far from the truth.

 

[marymol]

Glad to have been of any help and since it is God who always knows the depth of our hearts and its intents , may He bless us all to stay focused …after all, we are made with the inherent thirst , of infinity , for truth … beauty …love and all that is good and of God !

healingtheculture.com/

peace !

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

One thing that might help is to focus on the fact that death is not the end. From the perspective of eternity, you can take passages like “God slew the firstborn of Israel” and replace them with “God carried the firstborn of Israel to a wonderful place where everyone gets a pony.” The pony is optional, but you get the jist.

Even in cases where the smoten person has chosen to be an enemy of God, you don’t know where he’s going to wind up for eternity. Obviously, people in the Old Testament world had very little knowledge of God to work with. So there is definitely room to trust in God’s mercy.

Now, I’ve seen similar “look what a meany God is” lists before, from various atheist forums around the web. May I suggest that frequenting such forums may not be useful at this point in your journey? I’m not saying that you should never expose yourself to other points of view, but maybe that’s not what you need right now. Consider contacting your pastor. Tell him that you’ve been troubled by some of your readings in the Old Testament, and ask his advice. That’s what he’s there for.

God bless.

 

[Tyuiop411]

Glad to have been of any help and since it is God who always knows the depth of our hearts and its intents , may He bless us all to stay focused …after all, we are made with the inherent thirst , of infinity , for truth … beauty …love and all that is good and of God !

Thank you so much! i was just about to start a thread on the exact same subject as the OP